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#126115 - 03/08/04 07:10 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
Who tells you this stuff, Shotokan?

I recommend you buy Okinawan Karate by Bishop.
[/QUOTE]


Perhaps I will Joe, but I'm kinda low on funds right now [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG] I never said I knew everything, but according to the resources that I have been exposed to so far that's what I know.

Motobu might have been refered to as the "father of Okinawan Kempo" by a group of people, but he was not the only Okinawan Kempo master.

Not to sound as if I am bashing Motobu:
He made quite an impression on the Japanese media after he defeated a much larger and faster Russian boxer. Many saw him as a rigidly tough man.

Any source you seek will tell you that Itsou was teacher to Motobu and others who didn't bother to travel to Japan.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-08-2004).]

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#126116 - 03/08/04 11:57 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I know this must seem that I am constantly on Shotokan but the facts are distorted. Itosu refused to teach Motobu because of his reputation. As a matter of fact, Motobu and Funakoshi had quite a dislike for one another and the two actually faced off at one class. Funakoshi felt that Motobu was a uncultivated, ruffian, and Motobu felt Funakoshi spent too much time on Kata, and was not a good fighter. Motobu wasn't even allowed to train with his dad or brother because of his 'place ' in the family. Motobu spent many hours spying on his family and also spent time with Mabuni Sensei who he took much from. There is a famous picture of Mabuni, Motobu and Funakoshi. Notice too that Mabuni was seated between them. However the information you have about Motobu is incorrect. While there are many sources to choose from, I don't think you are choosing the best, or whoever is giving you information, is not giving you the best available. Try reading all of Funakoshi's books especially his book on his life. Karate is My Life I think its called. This will tell all about his teachers and where he got his information from. Also look for Dragon times articles or Classical Fighting Arts. Both are mainly Shotokan based magazines but have great factual articles about Okinawan Karate. I am amazed at how many Shotokan practioners don't know their own history. It is senseless to talk about things that are not factual. Motobu Sensei had a great effect on Okinanwan Karate, and I didn't say he was the only Master. There were many, however in your discussion of Okinawan Kempo, Motobu was one of the pioneers in Okinawa and influenced many in Okinawa.

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#126117 - 03/09/04 05:02 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


lol well I guess there are alot of different versions out there of the same story.

My guess is that Itsou and Funakushi were angry at Motobu for trying to teach the citizens of the country that invaded there beloved homeland their secrets. That's just my opinion. There were articles about them here on FA.

Lou, If Itsou refused to teach Motobu then where and from whom did Motobu learn Okinawan Kempo from. If the questions requires too much research forget it. I am just curious to see what your sources state. I haven't done much research on this topic. Thanks for the read.

[QUOTE] "Motobu was one of the pioneers in Okinawa and influenced many in Okinawa"[/QUOTE]

That I can agree with.

[QUOTE] I am amazed at how many Shotokan practioners don't know their own history.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-09-2004).]

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#126118 - 03/09/04 05:55 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
I have read that Motobu was infact a student of Itosu but was thrown out due to his aggressive behavior and street fighting.

Regards,

Raul

PS

Dont feel too bad about being on Shotokan's case. I'm usually the one bumping heads with him [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] He comes off rough be he learns from his debates. I notice that he is using Tode Jitsu now... hmmm wonder where he got that from?!

As a side note to why Motobu and Funakoshi probably did not get along... When Motobu defeated the Russian a local newspaper reported that Funakoshi defeated the Russian (due to Funakoshi's popularity). Apparently... as the story goes Funakoshi never called Motobu to give him his recognition and it rubbed him the wrong way.

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 03-09-2004).]

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#126119 - 03/09/04 12:01 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Fist77Jiujits Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Colonia, NJ USA
I am very sorry to intrude. But wasn't this Forum about how effective Aikido is against Boxing? I was just wondering if anyone had any new insights on that?

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#126120 - 03/09/04 12:16 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Nice to see it isn't just aiki that suffers from this kind of pointless bickering [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Having looked at the chambering thread I'm left thinking "so what?". It strikes me that there are so many MA masters, doctors, professors or whatever around that the original founders of these arts must've been kept busy finding time to teach them all!!!

Budo

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#126121 - 03/10/04 06:53 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raul Perez:
I have read that Motobu was infact a student of Itosu but was thrown out due to his aggressive behavior and street fighting.

Regards,

Raul

PS

Dont feel too bad about being on Shotokan's case. I'm usually the one bumping heads with him [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] He comes off rough be he learns from his debates. I notice that he is using Tode Jitsu now... hmmm wonder where he got that from?!

As a side note to why Motobu and Funakoshi probably did not get along... When Motobu defeated the Russian a local newspaper reported that Funakoshi defeated the Russian (due to Funakoshi's popularity). Apparently... as the story goes Funakoshi never called Motobu to give him his recognition and it rubbed him the wrong way.

[This message has been edited by Raul Perez (edited 03-09-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

Oh knowledgable or wise one...how can you not know about To Te Jitsu

Sorry for spoiling your thread Aikido guys [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#126122 - 03/10/04 07:21 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shotokan:
Oh knowledgable or wise one...how can you not know about To Te Jitsu

Sorry for spoiling your thread Aikido guys [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

<shakes head>

Shotokan,
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001382.html

Maybe this will refresh your memory.

Raul

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#126123 - 03/15/04 12:28 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
I'll take your silence as an apology to your sarcastic comment.

Cheers,

Raul

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#126124 - 04/11/04 11:30 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
aikido_budo1 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 4
Loc: Newport News/Va. U.S.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
I think you've hit on a fundamental problem for aikido, kempo. Aikido was once described to me as the purest form of self defence in that it has no attacks in the usual sense. That means it can appear difficult to see how to set up a lock or such like.

The first thing to realize is that aikido projections rely on overcommittment, aikido locks do not. Leaving aside any ethical discussion, I can apply a technique like nikkyo to a perfectly pinned uke and subdue him. If an attacker grabs my lapel but doesn't over reach himself in doing so my defence options are more limited, but not exhausted.

The point about leading an attacker to overcommit is more relevant to the attacker who wants to punch. Aikido doesn't teach me how to block, so I am vulnerable to a quick puncher. My best cause of action is to keep out of reach and wait until he tries to make up the distance by extending his punch a little too far.

If I am not able to keep proper distance I have to takke a more desicive role. I ca, for example, follow his punch in as he draws it back and initiate a technique from there, over extending him to his third point. However the skill level required to do this is greater than that needed if I were to let him over reach himself, so it probably wouldn't be many aikidokas first choice of strategy.

The real important point about aikido though is that it is not lead by the defender, but depends upon the opportunity afforded by the attacker. If I see an opening for a particular technique I take it, if not I wait, if I can. If I can't wait I utilise an irimi technique as soon as I can, with a good atemi. It is easy to get hung up on the idea that aikido is reliant upon this or that, it isn't because like every MA it is dynamic and changes as the situation demands.

Budo
[/QUOTE]

In our dojo we train to never "over commit " to an atack so that the technique nage has to try to use is never given to him like some gay little dance.You are supposed to take uke's balance from him not be given it freely. Its quite easy as u and others have stated so far, to throw or manipulate anyone who already has shitty balance. I have heard of hard and soft stlyes of Aikido so maybe we are a hard style so to speak but we really focus on not just traditional attacks but street attacks and boxing styles etc....but of course the real issue here in this debate I have come across in your forum is that the point in this whole argument/disscussion is ridiculous. People who practice Aikido, Karate or whatever have no place debating what art is better than the other....like someone else stated- it the artist not the art. Also, competeing against one another or stroking a martial art's ego is futile since no art has any business fighting the other since all were created for- self defence not attack. Also noted-we train how to use atemi quite reg. Maybe I'm wrong but I think it was O'Sensei who said Aikido was 90% atemi?! Regardless of who said it, regardless of what martial art u study- I would say it is important to note that to be good at these arts, it not so much important about who is better than who, or what is better than what,as it is to remember what all these arts were created for in the fisrt place-to defend one's self against attack even if it means taking a life(hopefully never necessary!). So that means these arts are not a competition or a sport but a way of life. Their principles apply not only to physical confrontation but to everyday life as well. Maybe to many people have forgotten about that.I hope I haven't offended any one here. Please be well and have a great day.
Zen Buddhist,Aikidoka and lover of other Martial Arts,
Aikido_Budo1 [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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