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#126105 - 03/03/04 08:58 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Sensei Lou,

No worries. I know the Northern California area has a lot of dojos to offer and I think there is enough there for everyone. I've trained with Doran Sensei at a few seminars and he has visited my dojo many years ago. I've just found that his style is not my cup of tea. From what I know of his background, I would imagine he is very effective though.


#126106 - 03/04/04 07:09 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Anyone ever seen a Tomiki aikido competition? I only ever saw a little bit of one,and it was rubbish. Uke just sort of prodded at tori until he was "caught" and dealt with.

I think for self defence Yoshinkan aikido takes some beating, as do the pre-war styles, although I think an aikido purist would find aiki-budo and such like a little too much like aiki jutsu.


#126107 - 03/07/04 05:09 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki

Try the off-balancing techiques you here against boxing punches.

#126108 - 03/07/04 08:08 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
I don't think the boxers perspective is being viewed here. I would like to see what would happen with a karate reverse punch against a boxers straight right. Here is the thing, those who have trained for any time at all, and study movement knows that the punch needs to be thrown from where the hand is, that is why a jab is so effective in opening someone up, a chambered punch-reverse punch has a longer distance to travel which makes it slower, and easier to defend against. Reverse punches are great for learning 'how' to punch and establishing angles in you striking art. To use a reverse punch in a real fight, not a tournament or dojo training, for real, is not the most effective punch. One of the great Martial Artists of our time, Hanshi Bruce Juchnik who was a direct student under Dr. James Mitose, points out the when you punch from the chamber, you actually give the attacker more space and energy to punch, that is why 'cocking' your punches is wrong. Also, the quickest way to a target is a straight line, the reverse punch from fighting stance is still slower than a straight right, a lunge punch even longer. These techniques work fine in the dojo, or at tournaments within your own style, however leave your style and you may find quite a difference. My Okinawan Karate Sensei use to train us for those who like to do lunge punches in tournaments, and its easy to stop in tournament scenario, much less in a fight with a boxer. People need to see the perspective of the fighter they are talking about instead of assuming that what you do will work against everyone[/QUOTE]

You nor the Dr. of Karate understand the objective of chambering. You don't chamber for the heck of it. Usually the gaurd is up...if you manage to seize a hand you twist it and pull it to your hips whilst you deliver the blow...(that's chambering it's trapping/grappling essentially).

That way the opponent is off-balanced giving him a harder time to counter.

#126109 - 03/07/04 08:54 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I question very seriously if Hnashi doesn't understand the principle of chambering. He has spent a life time working and training with many top Karate-ka. The big issue here is maybe you don't understand what is being discussed about 'chambering'. Every style has its own use of 'chanbering' and I know through all my years in Okinawan Te(Shito Ryu Karate)what chambering is used for, and how it works. The thing here is that if you study body movement and not style specific you will learn much about the body. I will tell you that once I learned about rotation and chambering from Hanshi, my sparring changed and improved to the point I was rearely hit. Once again its about opening your eyes to what else is out there, and not get locked into just what you do. Sorry to tell you but this but the biggest group within Hanshi's group are Shotokan students who were truly excited about learning body dynamics and the science of Striking. Too many school just teach the basics, and to assume people who have trained over 30 years, and in Hanshi's case 45, and Doctor Mitose's case over 50, that they don't undertand chanmbering and Kuzushi, is ludicrous. My guess is that you haven't even heard of Kosho Ryu Kempo or Dr. Mitose. To question me is one thing, I am just a student of the arts, and may or may not see things the way you do, but to question Dr. James Mitose, or Hanshi Juchnik is disrespectful and shows lack of open mindiness. I would think that anyone would show the same respect for any pioneer of the arts that they would like shown to their seniors. I could say to you that Shotokan isn't Shotkan at all but Shorin Ryu with changes for the Japaneese. But with respect for Funakoshi I would never question that he understood what he was doing. I suggest before you start questioning people like Dr. James Mitose and Hanshi Juchnik, you study a bit more!!!

#126110 - 03/08/04 01:07 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki

I used to think that the chambering of the hand was just for show (just like you [IMG][/IMG] ) but I found out otherwise.

Perhaps, if you do more research on the topic...especially look at chambering in the original art "grasping hands" Karate/Kempo-Jitsu which is like Karate and Ju Jitsu or more precisely To Te Jitsu).

Come on, the fighters of Old Okinawa weren't stupid to chamber their fists only to expose their face, nose, eyes and vital points. They did it for a reason. Otherwise chambering would contradict with Karate's principle of no wasted movement.

If you have some how learnt that chambering the fist is a ready position...that might have been what they taught to the Japanese school children (watered down Karate) after Karate was tamed by Funakushi so that it could survive the ban. The problem is many ill ideas and concepts that were taught to the school children are still taught today in many dojos.

The Karate that is taught out here by Japanese masters is totally different from the art practised in Okinawa. It is totally different from what your Dr. practises.

It shouldn't matter who you question, regardless of their rank or esteem. If you can't question the person you learn from, then it's not worthwhile learning from them.

I only ask you to question yourself humbly: "Can I be misunderstanding the concept of chambering?"

Karate is a fusion of Shorin-Ryu, Shorei-Ryu and To Te Jitsu...maybe even more.

Kind Regards, Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-08-2004).]

#126111 - 03/08/04 09:21 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
I haven't specifically been following the "chambering" sub-thread here but you guys have my interested.

Shotokan, I'm not a Karate/Shotokan/Shito guy so could you please give me the highlights of how you use Chambering? What I think you are talking about is when I see Karate-ka bring their fist to their hip (I realize this is could be an overexagerated motion) prior to punching. Is this the chambering you are discussing?

I'm looking at this from an aiki perspective and I'm familiar with the concepts of trapping and gathering. But I'm not sure if that is what is hidden in this movement.


#126112 - 03/08/04 01:17 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Shotokan I could care less what you think about me, I can see through the maze. But I will give you some insight on what I "don't understand". You suggest that I seek out information on kenpo jitsu. The man who brought Kenpo Jitsu to Hawaii is none other than James Mitose, the Doctor I refer too. He studied in a Japaneese temple before moving to Hawaii. He is the father of all Kenpo. What I also "don't understand" and need to research more is the 'Father of Okinawan Kempo" Choki Motobu. You see Motobu Sensei was one of the finest practioners of Kenpo Jitsu in Okinawa. His fighting skills are legendary. Motobu Sensei wrote a book entitled Okinawan Kempo(which I happen to have-the original version I might add)which he shows much of his art. Maybe it is you that should research a bit more you would find that the same James Mitose wrote a book "What is Self-Defense" The books are almost identicle and the pictures are even the same. They both approach their karate the same. Yet you say the Doctor of Karate I talked about aren't doing the same thing. I suggest they are and you can't see it. Once again you suggest my research into Okinawan Kempo yet you don't see the HOW of the practice. If you would look at Motobu Sensei's book, his 12 self defenses, you would see what he was known for on Okinawa, his trademark was the lead hand. It was used for blocks as well as strikes, so not to open up or cut down on the rotation. His chamber was at his chest if you notice. Motobu and Mitose alike studied how the body moved. Its no coincidence they both did Okinanwan Kempo the same way. The very art you tell me to research is the very one I am telling you about. You are taking a practice tool of Chambering and defining its movement. Chambering can also be wrist lock done as application or Bunkai, but it doesn't define the chambering movement. You also suggest To-Te Jitsu. If you study your own books you will notice that a salutation has chambering in it, and is shown as a joint locking movement as well. You can't define a movement in just one way, and say thats it. I humbly suggest you study the same books that you suggest I do, and then you may find the secret to chambering. Its funny you seem to understand Kempo Jitsu yet don't even know the true essence of the art or who studied it. Dr. Mitose was indeed doing the very thing you talk about yet you didn't know that

#126113 - 03/08/04 06:22 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki

Csinca, yes that is the chambering I am talking about.

Now let me ask you this:

[QUOTE] "You also suggest To-Te Jitsu. If you study your own books you will notice that a salutation has chambering in it, and is shown as a joint locking movement as well. You can't define a movement in just one way, and say thats it." - senseilou

Now, that you have said that. What were we arguing about? That was what I said two posts earlier.

Choki Motobu was not the father of anything. He was one of Itsuo's students who trained along side Funakushi.

Warm Regards, Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-08-2004).]

#126114 - 03/08/04 06:57 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Who tells you this stuff, Shotokan?

I recommend you buy Okinawan Karate by Bishop.

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