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#126095 - 09/15/03 01:25 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I don't think the boxers perspective is being viewed here. I would like to see what would happen with a karate reverse punch against a boxers straight right. Here is the thing, those who have trained for any time at all, and study movement knows that the punch needs to be thrown from where the hand is, that is why a jab is so effective in opening someone up, a chambered punch-reverse punch has a longer distance to travel which makes it slower, and easier to defend against. Reverse punches are great for learning 'how' to punch and establishing angles in you striking art. To use a reverse punch in a real fight, not a tournament or dojo training, for real, is not the most effective punch. One of the great Martial Artists of our time, Hanshi Bruce Juchnik who was a direct student under Dr. James Mitose, points out the when you punch from the chamber, you actually give the attacker more space and energy to punch, that is why 'cocking' your punches is wrong. Also, the quickest way to a target is a straight line, the reverse punch from fighting stance is still slower than a straight right, a lunge punch even longer. These techniques work fine in the dojo, or at tournaments within your own style, however leave your style and you may find quite a difference. My Okinawan Karate Sensei use to train us for those who like to do lunge punches in tournaments, and its easy to stop in tournament scenario, much less in a fight with a boxer. People need to see the perspective of the fighter they are talking about instead of assuming that what you do will work against everyone

#126096 - 09/15/03 02:25 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California

I'm not sure that it would be wise for an aikidoka that spends a limited amount of training on atemi to be within punching range of a boxer for too long. Any atemi that is thrown from outside that range are going to be ineffecive and simply open your defenses. I think in this case you would be playing the boxer's game...

I understand that in your opinion we should be dedicating more of our aikido training to atemi... but keep in mind that in essence, that is all the boxer trains...


#126097 - 02/06/04 09:46 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
MicDiesle Offline

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Cincinnati,Ohio USA
Ok the topic seems like common sense to me.The best of the best is simply hybrid.All MA's are good in thier particalar field of speciallity but to truely be a master at any you must have knowledge of all.My training is mainly BJJ but I spar with Kempo,Karate,BJJ,KJJ,and Boxing experts,not only to find the weaknesses in thier methods but to recognise thier strengths and tendincies.Cross training is in my opinion the best form of training in that it puts your technique in a position that you can only find when cross training.My point is this how would someone know thier technique is weak and susceptible to a left hook without being hit by one,or that your susceptible to a takedown without being upended by a hip toss or double leg takedown,without cross training or sparing I feel your training is somewhat incomplete if only your confidence is effected,for example,I know that regardless of the teachings of my opponent I am confortable knowing that if he is a striker I can take the fight to the ground and strategicly take him apart,if he too is a grappler I'll LET him take me down,slam me,or toss me however you want to put it and while he's enjoying his perfect execution I'm enjoying my most comfortable attack position.....from the ground whether it be top,bottom,guard or mount,and the only way to become truely comfortable your execution against any and all styles of MA you must have experience with any and all MA's. MIC

#126098 - 02/17/04 02:31 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Mr(s?). Micdiesle, I will have to take issue with your common sense I'm afraid [IMG][/IMG]

I think it is extremely difficult to master even one MA, let alone all of them!! Cross training is fine if you have exceptional ability as a martial artist and can switch between styles of defence, between defence and attack and between the varied principles that undlie techniques from different MA styles. I would also think a little ESP would be handy, so you can determine the "style" of your attacker before (s)he attacks and then defend accordingly.

Out of interest, which styles do you think it most important to train against? Do you train against Muay Thai at the expense of TKD? Would you learn boxing rather than take on a JKD exponent? Or do you train an equal amount against stylists from every art extant?


#126099 - 02/25/04 11:57 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Fist77Jiujits Offline

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Colonia, NJ USA
I have just noticed this discussion. And Although I may be late in the debate, I would like to jump in and mention my experience that may assist a little.
I've been trainning in Jiujitsu for a little over 19 years and coming up in the ranks, I've had to pass a number of required tests to advance. One particular test involves boxing trainning. At the lower levels students are introduced to boxing and trained in the art to give them an understanding of the concepts. At the higher levels, the students are actually tested in their boxing skills and ability to defend themselves against a boxer using various arts in their stand alone form. Karate, Judo, and as it turns out, Aikido.
I am currently trainning in this test to perform for ranking. I am currently at 3rd degree which will require that the test be administered at a high intensity level. No easy basic attacks or wide open punches. Everything is as real as we can try to make it. (Which I hope any self respecting sensei would not have any other way to merit the rank) My opponents will try to take me out as best they can as a boxer and it's up to me to defend myself succesfully.
NOW, here is the delema: Boxer vs. Boxer, no problem. Karate vs. Boxer, no sweat. Judo vs. Boxer, a challenge but very possible. AIKIDO vs. Boxing!! I just hit my wall. For weeks on end I trainned in this part of the test. Each time I tried to defend myself against my opponent (Who is an experience pugilist) I got my face handed to me. I tried all types of stratgies!! I went over and over it in my head. day and night. At home and at work. But whenever I was on the mat, I ended up getting pounded. Each time I either advanced or countered, the Boxer's tecniques were just too quick and tight to allow for any defensive moves to be applied before his second or third punch found its mark. I was absolutely convinced that Aikido alone was not enough to get past boxing. And if that was the case, what chance did it stand against any other striking art??! Karate, Kickboxing, Muay Thai?? I tell you now, I was on the verge, the VERGE of throwing in the towel and publicly stating my opinion of Aikido not being able to cut it against the other arts. That is until I stumbled upon this forum. I read thru the entire debate at least three times and saw so many highly valid points and theories from you all and found that it's such a relief to know that there are so many knowledgable Sensei's still out there to learn from that are not wrapped up in their own systems or self worth to lend a jewel of info or two. While reading this, I came to a moment of enlightment. I thought Aikido in it's purest form could not do it alone. It needed an assist from another art to help set up it's defenses. Another art that employs some substanctial striking. As it turns out I was not using it in it's purest form. To quote some statements from this forum: Boxers train to maintain proper distancing and do not over commit. Whereas Aikido revels in attackers over committing their attacks. That's fine against a street thug that wants to take your head off, but against an experience sport fighter like a boxer it is much more difficult. Also, there is a statement of "It's not the art, it's the artist" that comes into play. If people think that the art itself is the key then they're wrong. It's how you use it to serve your needs that counts. The concept of Atemi (As "Shotokan" mentioned) is something that I had overlooked. Atemi is a huge part of Aikido, although not out on the front line. Without it, any chance of overcoming a boxer will fall to nothing. This coupled with the evasionary tactics of Aikido can make the difference. My strategy was to evade to boxer at all times. This would have him chase you and struggle to position himself to work off any kind of combination. Even jabs to lead him in were a problem. A boxer can dance around all day, but ususally has to position himself close enough and stablize his stance before launching any type of effective assault. It is here that the Aikidoka slips away and creates his proper distance just as the boxer settles in to attack. This can frustrate and tire the boxer, cause him to overcompensate by trying harder to get closer and maybe even overextending himself. The Atemi comes in when you have the boxer thinking that when he gets close, you are just going to run again. Evade, evade, evade, then Boom! Strike and enter. This can be accomplished as the boxer begins his attack or as he settles in for one. Before he attacks, or as he attacks. Either way, the Aikidoka uses the essential strengths of the art to neutralize the weaknesses of the Sport. After this forum induced epipphany was had, I promptly moved to test the theory. I must say that my results in defending boxing with Aikido were improved by at least 80%. Of course, if the boxer sat down and tried to apply the same mentality and theoretical approach by really picking the right strengths to overcome the Aiki's weaknesses, then, those results would also be radically different. I would just like to say that about 3 weeks ago, I was ready to defend my position to the death that Aikido had no business in the ring with Boxing. But after much thought and dissection along with the incredibly helpful insights in this particular forum, I am happy to report that I am convinced that it is NOT the Art, yet the skill lies within the artist. Every art has it's strengths and flaws. How you approach them in comparison is the key. P.S.
I would HIGHLY recommend Trainning in this fashion with Aikido by using a boxer. Beacuse once I got the hang of how to handle one, taking on the standard "Street-style" punches and kicks were a ridiculous snap. In Practice of course.

Thank you all and wish me luck on the test.

#126100 - 02/26/04 12:28 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
pablo Offline

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 20
Loc: santa cruz, california, US
I train in judo, aikido and jujitsu. I have
to say that if by the time you're a 3rd dan
you still can't defend against a boxing attack
then how effective can this art claim to be.
Its no wonder. If the aikido dojo I go to is
at all typical with its utterly pacifist
philosophy, then its not surprising that
aikido is ineffective. Who the heck is going
to come at you with Shomen Uchi anyway.
We seem to constantly practice defence against
totally contrived attacks. Give me a break!
To be honest, the only reason I'm taking
aikido is to fine tune my movement and body
awareness for judo. For this, aikido is
pretty good practice.
Let the flames fly!

#126101 - 02/27/04 12:46 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Pablo, I can't say that you are wrong, I would think that there are more Aiki schools like yours than the other. However I don't think you can say the art is ineffective. It may be PRACTICED ineffectively, but it really depends on the practioner and how he applies his art. I can make my Aiki very effective if I choose to, but then again I have other influences as well. Watch Segal Sensei and tell me he is ineffective. I have seen him in a dojo setting and its not fake. His iriminage is from hell, all 6'6" coming down on you. So I think its more of a question of how the art is practiced. I would guess if polled you would find that over half of the Aikido practioners don't really care if it works for self-defense, but do it for other reasons as well. Some do it for controlling an attacker and this works well. Look at a drunk. You can hit him all you want but he may not feel it, using Aiki to effect his balance really makes more sense. In this case its very effective. We tend to compare Aikido with Karate or Jujutsu arts and compare its effectiveness. This is comparing apples and oranges. Each in their own right is effective. The problem in Aikido I see are thse who train softly and unrealistically and believe that they are doing self defense techniques. But again its the practioners not the art that is ineffective. I had this explained to me by a Aikido Shihan. How many fights are you really going to be in, in a lifetime? why study self defense if you will only need it one or two times. Why not train in a way to make your life better?. I have also been told by Aikidoka that they study an art form, not a self defense art. So it depends on how you view the Aikido you are doing. the only problem I see if you practice as an art form, don't believe that you can use it in self defense. You must practice as you play, so in order to practice self defense, you must practice your art that way. By the way, how effective is Brazillian Jujutsu, Sambo out of a ring. Are you going to wrestle around on the floor of the mall? But look how effective it is in the ring or if someone is got you on the ground. So once again its how its practiced. To practice BJJ from the guard everytime is not self defense effective. Start adding takedowns, strikes etc and it can be very effective. Same is true with Aikido

#126102 - 02/27/04 01:49 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Fist77Jiujits Offline

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Colonia, NJ USA
I have to agree with Senseilou on this one. Which was my point all along. If you train ineffectively then you will perform ineffectively. It's not the style that does it all for you. YOU have to be the one to use it correctly. Getting pounded time and again until one gets it right proves that. The best thing I can suggest is to train under the most difficult circumstances to get better. If you block every single punch or kick you recieve in practice with ease then something's wrong. As for reaching third Dan and having trouble defending onself, the art can only "claim" to be as effective as the one trained in it. Doesn't matter how high your rank is. You can still get dropped if you're not careful.

#126103 - 03/01/04 07:27 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
pablo Offline

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 20
Loc: santa cruz, california, US
I accept both of your positions. My
expectations from the aikido dojo I go
to are probably unrealistic, given that
I'm training to be a better fighter.
If you train with compliant partners
then the whole exercise becomes more of
a dance, a spiritual form of exercise.
I've considered looking for an alternative
dojo, perhaps one devoted to Tomiki style,
but they are hard to find. Any suggestions?
I live in the San Jose area.

#126104 - 03/02/04 09:41 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Tomiki Aikido for I think that will not help much more than Aikido itself. Tomiki Aikido is done with a knife, but its sport oriented. When people talk about Aikido in the high school system in Japan its Tomiki Ryu that they are talking about. You get points for this and for that. While it does work Aiki disarms, it is more for sport than self-defense. If you are in San Jose, look for Duran Shihan(my aplogies to Chris)as his appoach is more self-defense oriented, but once again Aikido is what it is, and you can't change the essence of the art. If it doesn't fit what you want, you may have to find something else to make you a better fighter.

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