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#126065 - 06/25/03 01:30 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Cato said:

"In my opinion, I don't need to understand how a boxer punches, I need to understand how my aiki training allows me to deal with his punch. I don't need to know how to kick, only how to avoid one. I don't need to cross train, I need to train in aiki with different opponents. That is, I think, a subtle but extremely important distinction."

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. I think there something to learn about aiki in all things-- even a front leg front kick.

I understand and appreciate your point that it is not important for you to learn these things, but rather an appropriate aiki response to these things.

What, though, about your responsibility as uke? Good ukemi includes not just learning to receive aiki techniques, but also learning to furnish a useful attack for tori.

I contend it would be easier (and probably more appropriate) for you to learn a front legged snap kick and add that to your ukemi then it would be for a karateka to learn enough ukemi to practice safely.

I know I am not being fair-- it's a vast field, and uke already has a full plate learning the more traditional aspects of the role. Still, an uke who does have experience in other martial arts is probably a better uke than one who does not.

I am sure you have moments as an uke when tori receives some benefit from your jujitsu training, perhaps when he turns for shihonage and walks into a choke. The more you have been exposed to, the better you can do at teaching tori to stay safe.

Also, I do wonder if having an appropriate aiki response to a given attack doesn't automatically imply a complete understanding of how that attack is performed-- maybe I am being naieve with that idea.

I would appreciate your thoughts on that. Do we know how to do an attack just because we can blend with it?

Can we blend with it without knowing how to do it?

#126066 - 06/26/03 04:54 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
That's an interesting, and difficult, question mikey. What does make a good uke?

I would argue that a good uke is one who understands the point of the training and keeps the attack appropriate for the experience and skill of tori. It is, I think, more important that ukle makes a committed attack rather than a stylised one. Aikido attacks are designed for a specific training purpose. They teach us the principles of defence against linear attacks, circular attacks and multiple attackers.

It is, in my opinion, the principles that are important, not the attacks in themselves. A linear attack must travel along a broadly similar path to any other linear attack. The principle behind the defence remains the same whether uke chooses an aikido style attack, a karate style tsuki or a boxers jab. So long as uke commits himself to the attack properly, the rest is just window dressing.

I suppose it comes down to a simple question in the end: do you worry about how your attacker attacks, or about how you defend? I don't think it is possible to switch between styles of defence dependant upon the preferences of your attacker. The level of technical ability needed to do so would be phenomenal. In any case, unless your attacker obligingly informs you of his chosen style beforehand, you wont know how he attacks until he does, so you would have no idea which "style" of aiki defence to employ against him.

In short, No. I don't think it necessary for uke to be able to attack in the style of other martial artists.

Nor do I think an appropriate response implies an understanding of the attack. To me it implies an understanding of the principles of defence. If I may apply a rather trivial analogy, If I play cricket (I am English you know) and hit the ball over the boundary for six, does that mean I am a skilled bowler, or an accomplished batsman? So long as I read the line of the ball I don't need to understand the technicalities of how the bowler held his hand to bowl it, or the length and speed of his run up.

Can we blend with it without knowing how to do it - absolutely we can. I have no idea how to do a jumping spinning back kick, but I know it goes up in the air and in a circle. [IMG][/IMG]


[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 06-26-2003).]

#126067 - 06/26/03 10:24 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
These are all excellent points, Cato.

It really is simple, there are only so many directions and forms an attack can take.

I get too caught up in having techniques "feel right" and then I get worried that if I face an attack that I have never faced before, the difference in the way it feels might break my technique.

The "can't see the forest for the trees" cliche is so overused, but if it ever fit anywhere I think it fits here. By chasing all these details, I have lost sight of the elements all attacks have in common. Maybe that was part of the genius of the way aikido was developed?

One of the things I have always liked about my sensei is that he makes a great deal of effort to get us to focus on concepts rather than individual techniques. I think that has helped me to make a lot of progress relative to what I have been able to learn from other teachers.

So, in aikido, maybe the attacks you practice against aren't relevant, as long as they enable you to grasp the concept behind the attack.

#126068 - 06/26/03 03:42 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Joe Jutsu Offline

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575

#126069 - 08/07/03 03:17 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki

Boxing punches aren't that hard to defend against. You will get punched, just roll or more in the opposite direction of the punch with the same speed of the punch. Practise drills with evading punching. The secret is to get close behind the extended hand behind the fists where you can't get hit and then do something.

#126070 - 08/07/03 01:57 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
It is all about opinion in the end isn't it? I think any skilled puncher, boxing or karate or whatever, is difficult to defend against [IMG][/IMG]


#126071 - 08/09/03 01:30 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
kempo_jujitsu Offline

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i think what cato was trying to say is basically, a straight punch, and a finger jab...are basically the same damn thing....and can be dealth with in very simelar manors if not identical.
the 'path' of the strike is whats important, not whether its a fist or a knife hand etc.

a question about aikido, since it primarily relies on overcommitment on the attackers would you deal with it if there was no overcommitment? just stay away from him until he did? just let him keep coming at you? or would you take the innitiative and attack first to lead into a lock or throw?

#126072 - 08/21/03 06:06 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I think you've hit on a fundamental problem for aikido, kempo. Aikido was once described to me as the purest form of self defence in that it has no attacks in the usual sense. That means it can appear difficult to see how to set up a lock or such like.

The first thing to realise is that aikido projections rely on overcommittment, aikido locks do not. Leaving aside any ethical discussion, I can apply a technique like nikkyo to a perfectly pinned uke and subdue him. If an attacker grabs my lapel but doesn't over reach himself in doing so my defence options are more limited, but not exhausted.

The point about leading an attacker to overcommit is more relevant to the attacker who wants to punch. Aikido doesn't teach me how to block, so I am vulnerable to a quick puncher. My best cause of action is to keep out of reach and wait until he tries to make up the distance by extending his punch a little too far.

If I am not able to keep proper distance I have to takke a more desicive role. I ca, for example, follow his punch in as he draws it back and initiate a technique from there, over extending him to his third point. However the skill level required to do this is greater than that needed if I were to let him over reach himself, so it probably wouldn't be many aikidokas first choice of strategy.

The real important point about aikido though is that it is not lead by the defender, but depends upon the opportunity afforded by the attacker. If I see an opening for a particular technique I take it, if not I wait, if I can. If I can't wait I utilise an irimi technique as soon as I can, with a good atemi. It is easy to get hung up on the idea that aikido is reliant upon this or that, it isn't because like every MA it is dynamic and changes as the situation demands.


#126073 - 08/21/03 04:01 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
kempo_jujitsu Offline

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
cool...well said and thanks.

#126074 - 08/24/03 06:42 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
John C Offline

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 10
Loc: United Kingdom
I have been training for nineteen years on and of in Wado-ryu Ju-Jitsu, Wing-Chung and hold 1st Dan in Aikido, as for defending against a boxer I expect there were not many boxers in feudal Japan so the techniques are not necessarily designed to deal with a not committed attacker plus aiki empty hand techniques are more designed for weapons rather that empty hand, you would not stand on the spot jabbing with a knife you would commit your attack. In all Martial arts the practitioner should learn the principle of when to use atemi and in my experience both aikido and Ju-jitsu practitioners have good principles probably better than Karate but they are week and badly trained in hand strikes, and in my view students should learn to punch and kick before taking up either of these Martial Arts up, to develop a good defence you must first learn good offence it is easy to throw someone from a bad and over committed attack. With a boxer donít get into his distance draw him in they are very easy to take down with front foot sweeps they may not commit with the hands but they do with the front leg very open to groin kicks they donít know what to do with feet always keep kicks low on the streets. If you wish to contact me with your view.

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