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#126045 - 06/13/03 01:43 AM Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I am wondering how many people study boxing type attacks in their Aiki training, Jabs, crosses, hooks and uppercuts. Most schools don't, mine never did. I talked with a Shihan once and he said he addresses it at 5th Dan. I feel thats a bit ridiculous as you are more likely to see a roundhouse punch or cross rather than a straight punch, and 5th dan is a bit late to be addressing it. Also I would like some feedback on those who have tried their Aiki on jabs and double jabs and combinations

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#126046 - 06/13/03 02:28 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I'll say that boxers may be the hardest to apply aiki waza to. Why? Because the way good boxers practisce to break their rythym and so on, and every so often, like a double jab, the first is pulled short as a fake to set you up or gain distance.

But, I don't see the problem if you move into their guard, where such attacks would have to change, or back off or sidestep.

In our (karate) dojo, in self defense, defenses for hook punches, lapel grabs and headlocks are among the first to be learnt.

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#126047 - 06/13/03 05:56 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Jamoni Offline
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Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
One way we trained for fighters who don't "commit" (IE Boxers) in hapkido was to back off in quick little steps, drawing him in, forcing him to step further and reach farther with each punch. When he goes too far and throws a wild punch or takes too deep of a step, then aiki stuff comes in to play. It's just like russia in world war 2.

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#126048 - 06/14/03 12:15 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
mikelw Offline
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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1031
Loc: Bothell, Washington (not DC), ...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamoni:
One way we trained for fighters who don't "commit" (IE Boxers) in hapkido was to back off in quick little steps, drawing him in, forcing him to step further and reach farther with each punch. When he goes too far and throws a wild punch or takes too deep of a step, then aiki stuff comes in to play. It's just like russia in world war 2.[/QUOTE]

thats a good analogy!

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#126049 - 06/16/03 04:44 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
immrtldragon Offline
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Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
I will be beginning aikido soon and after I have a good amount of experience and the basic concepts (at least 1 year), I am going to experiment with this. My dad used to box and I have some friends who do Ving Tsun. I am going to wear a really thick TKD style chest protecter and let them attack as quickly or broken up as they wish (only limiting factor will be no kicks low and no hitting in the face) just to see how well I can evade and at least get a grip suitable to where I could throw or pin using the Aikido concepts I have developed up to that time. I know it takes way more than a year to be proficient, but it's just an experiment.

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#126050 - 06/17/03 03:46 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Jamoni is absolutely on the money. Aikido strategy depends upon the attacker over committing. Until he/she does the aikidoka is better off keeping just out of reach.

Most MA styles would have trouble dealing with a skilled boxer, particularly if you choose to slug it out toe to toe. Aikido teaches us to aviod doing this, so to cross train in dealing with a boxer on his terms isn't really aiki at all. It is the adaption of aiki technique whilst ignoring the principles.

Budo

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#126051 - 06/17/03 01:09 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Ah ha...I'm learning before I even start my formal Aikido training.

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#126052 - 06/18/03 01:49 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Gee Cato, I disagree again. In my Aiki training, Aiki people don't attack, they give you an attack.I have never seen a true committed attack from an Aikidoka. Practicing in the dojo is one thing, but just as Aiki has Randori, Karateka spar, and its not exactly like practice. Sparring is where you prove your techniques, so the attacks you get when you spar are different then when you train. My first lesson came when my Sensei punched and I went tenkan to take kotegaeshi, all I got for my effort was an elbow to the head. I didn't expect to see that reaction. You don't need to believe in cross training, but one better beware of how punches are thrown. I am currently working with a good friend of mine in another art or two. Now since we are at the same level, we are not practicing basics but try our techniques on one another, no ego, just friendship and trading information. What we are doing is testing each others techniques which is great. One of his attacks is a flurry of strikes from many angles, and you can not manipulate his strikes, period. Stepping back, fading, ducking tenkan, you can not just take one of his limbs. However, you get him with a good kick, or counter punch, the joint locks work great. One needs to face these types of attacks as well, as on the street you never know what you will see. For example I saw a guy on drugs go after a security cop, and he had a club in his hand. He never used the club but hit the security guy with a punch instead. Now I can't figure out if this guy was brilliant, showing the stick and not using it, or stupid for not using it. Eiher way the cop thought he was going to hit with the stick and never saw the punch. Lucky for him I took the stick away and hit the guy in the knee with it, so they could arrest him. Point is you don't know how people will attack, but they don't attack the way Aikidoka do.

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#126053 - 06/18/03 04:54 AM Re: Boxing and Aiki
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Aah, Lou - Where to begin? It seems we will forever be crossing swords over aiki training. I do respect your opinion, but I have to put a counter argument forward all the same. No offence intended [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

First thing is that everyone needs to decide what their goals are in training. If all you want is a system of self defence then cross training may hold some merit, but if you want to learn a martial art, with all the attendant philosophy, discipline, ettiquette, customs and historical baggage that goes with it then cross training is of little use.

So, having decided that all you want is self defence, I would argue that your argument about ineffective training could, and should, be applied to every art extant. More so than any other martial artists, karateka seem convinced of the superiority of their training methods. Yet they often overlook the fact that against an equally skilled aikidoka they leave themselves wide open for a counter if their technique fails to end the fight. Total committment to an attack is fine so long as you subscribe to the "all or nothing" philosophy.

Now, as to how committed you train, surely that is up to you? If you want committed attacks in aikido randori there is absolutely nothing in the art that stops you using them. Aikido attacks are only ineffective if you make them so.

I would also argue that cross training is both unnecessary and ill concieved. Unnecessary because aikido teaches us to deal with the motion of an attack, not the way it is delivered. a yokomen travels along the same path as a roundhouse punch or a mawashi geri. A jab is a tsuki. The principle of the attack is exactly the same. My point is that aikido doesn't teach defence A to attack B, it teaches principles of defence that don't change just because your attacker uses a right hook rather than a yokemen kiri komi. As I said before, training with a boxer on his terms simply isn't aiki.

My final point is this: It is clearly impossible to train with any degree of success against all the ways in which you might be attacked, so which ones do you leave out? Do you train with a boxer and leave out Muay Thai? Or learn BJJ and ignore kempo jujutsu? The list is endless and it is simply not possible to train with stylist from every art, so cross training is, in my opinion, ill concieved. It puts me in mind of the old saying "Jack of all trades, master of none".

Just my opinion, that's all.

Budo

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#126054 - 06/18/03 01:09 PM Re: Boxing and Aiki
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Cato, you are missing my point. I am not suggesting cross training, nor am I slighting the effectiveness of Aiki. What I am criticizing is the attack that the Aiki person does. Remember its not the art, but the artist. I have never criticized the Art, but how the art is being done and applied. I have never said I just want self defense, contrarily I am one of the few people around who teach concept, theory and principles. There is much more to the art then self-defense, I never said that. What I am saying is that your technique NEEDS to work, and if someone is always 'giving' you the attack you will never be able to handle real attacks. If you haven't seen Aiki people with sluggish attacks then
1. you must have a great school
2. you must not see the attacks are not real
3. you just don't care one way or the other. I have trained long enough and have reached a point I don't need the help from the attacker. I NEED a committed attack, so I can prepare myself for the real thing. In my class I don't ask for certain attacks. My uke decides what he is going to do, I am teaching a technique, but never know where its going to come from or what angle. When we practice technique, we do it in a line, in a square in a hexagon, and many times any attack goes. If you really believe that tsuki is a jab, you haven't been with a boxer. It may look the same to you, but it certainly does not have the same timing as a jab. Which goes to another point, timing, in most cases, timing is not taught with all punching and grabbing done with the same rhythm. Speed up an attack or slow it down and it changes how a technique is done. The art is fine, its the way people practice their art that's the problem.

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