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#125985 - 06/26/03 02:26 AM Re: Is aikido street effective???
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
This is a hard question to answer. You can tell alot of times students ask questions when they just don't want to work. In some cases, I work them harder and tell them I'll answer another time, sometimes I do, sometimes I ignore the question all together,"what happens when a 6'2" Aiki guy fights a Japaneese trained Sumo who is 1,000 pounds but is on a diet, and has a bad knee" Those usually go unanswered. If I see that my students are having an off night, I will channel the question into a philosophy class or a history class. I do teach philosophy and history to all my students, whether they want it or not.
But I have trained in the traditional Japaneese class, technique shown 3 times, no questions just work. I have done the hard-ass class, 100%-!00% of the the time. I also have had the easy, learning how to do class as well. Learning takes all aspects, but I feel questioning is very important. If one asks the same question all the time, I will mention to him he asked that before and I answered it. Maybe one more time, and thats it. I have found that girls and women, learn differently than men, so you can make say a sports analogy and they might not get it the first time, so you need to get that message accross another way. One of my latest confusing moments was comparing stiking to war strategy. Long range weapons, medium weapons, short range weapons. I compared it to air attacks, then tanks, mortars, gernades, to rifles then hand to hand combat. One of my younger girls said, "I don't get it" what does what we do have to do with war? So I changed the analogy to knives,(she is a culinary student) and explained how you can use long knives short knives and each had its own function and which one you would use for each situation. That worked! So what I try to do is teach by analogy as much as possible, and make all information as pertinent as possible

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#125986 - 06/26/03 08:08 AM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Wouldn't it be great if Aikido incorporated ne-waza? I wonder why O-Sensei left it out. It was very popular and an important part of a bushi's knowlege. I'm sure O-Sensei was aware of grappiling and its effectivness. If you add ne-waza, I think Aikido would be complete. Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 06-26-2003).]

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#125987 - 06/26/03 12:46 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I can see why you would think that Ed, but I've always understood the exclusion of ne waza was a deliberate omission by O'sensei.

There are no doubt many reasons for this, not least among them is the quaint idea that ground fighting was demeaning, and beneath the aikidoka. Don't forget aikido's daito ryu origins, this was an art reserved for a select group of higher nobility. They weren't about to go rolling around in the dirt like a common brawler when they could avoid doing so through the application of aiki principles.

Daito ryu was also a battlefield art, for use by armour clad samurai. Ne waza is impractical both when wearing armour, and more inportantly when in the heat of battle. A samurai on the ground is vulnerable, and armour restricts his ability to move freely whilst down there.

So O'sensei came from a background that considered ne waza inappropriate and unnecessary. When you think about it, ground work wouldn't actually add anyyhing to aiki techniques. There are already a number of pinning techniques which don't necessitate tori going to ground himself, and most of the throws are projections wherin uke is projected away from tori.

Aiki jutsu is more closely allied to ju jutsu, but again the emphasis is on harnessing the attackers energy to finish him off. Ground fighting doesn't really lend itself to this principle. There is a famous story of Sokaku Takeda sensei disposing of a notorious robber by breaking his neck with one throw. With this kind of potential why would the aiki budoka look to wrestle his opponent to the ground and pin him there?

Budo

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#125988 - 06/26/03 01:01 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
But what about Kano's studies? Tenjin ryu and Kito ryu were practiced by samuri. And there was alot of grappiling on the battle field in Japan. Some of Kano's old katas were from these old times. I know we are talking about Aikido. Maybe you got it right with the high class vs the commoner seperation. Thats why we have Aikido and Judo. Do you think to increase Aikido's effectiveness on the street, Aikidokas should be experienced in Ne-waza? Should the art evolve or should it stay classical? Or if you added Ne-waza would it then be just Jujutsu. Just some thoughts. Ed

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#125989 - 06/27/03 04:08 AM Re: Is aikido street effective???
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
aikido does have ne waza, for instance your five controls can be used on the ground or standing...maybe o sensei wanted you to figure this out for yourself, instead of having to have everything taught to you.
people say karate doesnt have ground techniques...sure it does, if you just think about it...and apply the principles.

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#125990 - 06/27/03 06:58 AM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
The five controls you are talking about are not the ne-waza I had in mind. Someone tried a pin on me once and I armbared him. Ed

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#125991 - 06/27/03 07:20 AM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I don't think I would go so far as to say aiki has ne waza, at least not in the sense that ju jutsu does. You are quite right kempo, in that there are techniques that can be applied to pin an opponent, and these can be applied in suwari waza, but I think they are a long way removed from the ne waza of judo and ju jutsu.

It is not normally the intention of an aikidoka to take an opponent to the ground and continue the fight there, whereas that is often a deliberate ploy for ju jutsuka. As Lou has argued convincingly on another thread, it is difficult to apply aiki principles on the ground.

That said, I don't necessarily think the fact that Ed put an armbar on someone who tried to pin him invalidates the technique. Aiki pins work as well as any other MA techniques, that is to say they work some of the time, and some of the time they don't. That is a truism of all MA techniques from all styles of MA.

Budo

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#125992 - 06/27/03 04:57 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i used the five controls as a "for instance".
you can use anything on the ground...principles of deflection. redirection and counter...a pin is a pin, a hold a hold.
as for the jujutsu thing...a real jujutsu practitioner does not try to take the fight to the ground...the opponent yes...but we do not try to fight on the ground, that is the last place you want to be in a fight...we learn it for those situations where you find yourself there. true traditional jujutsu should not be confused with brazilian jiujitsu which is more akin to judo. whats the big difference in whether you are standing face to face or laying face to face...a lock is a lock...a pin a pin. sure there wont be as much momentum behind it...but that should make it easier to counter lol plus, most of the time you fight in the street you wont be fighting a judoka..it will be some punk who dont know how to fight on the ground.

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#125993 - 06/27/03 05:05 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
concentrate on applying the "principles" on the ground. there are only so many ways to lock a wrist...where you do it doesnt matter. again this is just an example not to be taken too literally or as the only answer or method

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#125994 - 06/28/03 05:24 AM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I'm afraid I will have to take issue with one or two things, kempo [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Taking the fight to the ground was most certainly a deliberate ploy for many koryu ju jutsu styles. Tenjin ryu contained a lot of ground fighting techniques, and Judo employs many of them today. It may not have been the only strategy open to any system, but was definitely a part of many ju jutsuka's armoury.

I would say tat BJJ is about as authentic as American karate, if you get my meaning. that's not to say they don't work, just asking whether they can really be considered "authentic"

I think that perjhaps I didn't ecxplain myself properly last time around. of course you can apply aiki techniqes from the ground, but it is very difficult to apply the principles of the art. As I think it is the principles, not the techniques, that define aiki arts, I think that applying a lock whilst on the ground isn't aiki jutsu, it's Ju jutsu. No less effective for all of that, but not aiki.

Budo

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