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#125995 - 06/29/03 04:13 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???
kempo_jujitsu Offline

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
to me aiki and ju are very closely related....harmonize, blend, yeild...simelar, basically to me it means dont fight force with force. instead blend with it and follow it, redirect it, release it..etc. doesnt mean there has got to be his full commited weight behind the attack. a punch on the ground is not that dissimelar to a punch standing up, either way his fist is flying at you.
as for groundfighting in jujutsu, of course its there, its in the curriculum...what i was saying is not the OBJECTIVE in a fight to take the "fight" to the ground and roll around and grapple, the reason you learn it is for the instance you get taken down in a fight, trip and fall or what have you,then you would use it. aim to take the opponent down yes...not necissarily to follow him down there and wrestle. you have to fight from wherever you find yourself when you are attacked! how would a fully armored samurai move on the ground?...why would he grapple on the ground when there are probably a hundred more opponents to deal with as well....and they all have katanas or maybe even rifles!! lol

#125996 - 06/29/03 11:28 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Ed Glasheen Offline

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
I think there are three phases of Jujutsu.

1. Jujutsu; In your face hard style. This phase is not so concerned with timing or blending. This phase makes openings thru strikes. Strikes are as important as throws and locks.
2.Aiki-jutsu; Now we start to see alot more timing. The strikes are still there, but alot more importance is placed on your timing skills.
3. Aiki-no-jutsu. This is pure timing. By the time you reached this phase your timing and awareness skills are so great you no longer require strikes. Musashi?
The samurai did grapple on the ground...alot. To get a dominate position was golden. They then pulled out thier knives or short swords and finished there opponets.
When you deal with mass attacks,you tend to focus on the person who you are directly encountering. You know there are hundreds of people around you but they are kind of in your subconsious. Maybe its tunnel vision. Anyway in mass battles you fought who was in front of you.And sometimes the guy you never saw cut your leg or arm off. So there was and still is strategy on taking a person to the ground in a fight. Actually we still do in the military ie sentry removal.
Today the big debate is how grapplers or Jujutsu guys will fight out of the ring. I heard that Ryan Gracie got into a bar fight and took the guy down and choked him out. Then he stabbed him with a knife!Myself I am not going to fight the other guys strength regardless of where I am. If the guy is a good standup guy,I'm taking him to the ground. That dosn't mean I'll be fighting in the guard the whole time. I prefer Knee in Stomach Techniques so if I have to bail I am not tied into the guy on the ground.But yes I will take a guy to the ground on a street fight. Alot of other Jujutsu guys would do the same thing. Worried about his friends. Yes but as above I am concentrated at the task at hand. Defeating the guy in front of me.
Can you apply aiki to the ground. Yes, to a degree. When I practice with my students I often do not not even look at them. This always freaks them out. I mainly feel what they are doing and react to them. Sounds like aiki to me.Ed

#125997 - 06/30/03 01:53 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???

Just because you study aikido, "real" jujitsu, or disembowling people with popsicle sticks, do not think you can not wind up in a tangled mess on the ground with an opponent.
In the real world the ground is wet, uneven, and full of nice things to stumble,stagger, trip over.Also footwear can play a part, how much traction is available from men's dress shoes.
Fine, don't believe most encounters end up on the ground(I don't), but at least prepare for the possibility.
Do you really want to try to figure out how to apply that neat technique that makes everyone scream in pain while being sat on by someone intent on caving in your face?

#125998 - 07/01/03 10:06 AM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
kempo, skirting around the fighting on the floor issue for a moment (I think we are coming at it from different angles and I accept your point is valid whilst maintaining my original assertion [IMG][/IMG]), I think Ju and Aiki are superficially very similar and there is some apparent cross over between them. However, I would argue that aiki is a far more involved concept than ju. To me, a punch delivered from the ground lacks the necessary movement to properly harmonise with it, the puncher is too well pinned and the defender too immobile to perform aiki with any degree of success. Aiki involves all the elements of ju, and a lot more besides, and employs them in such a way that ground fighting, in the sense of wrestling an opponent into some kind of submission, is not practical for aiki budoka.

I agree with Ed in that a mass fight is in reality a large number of smaller fights all taking place at the same time and in the same place. I don't know that there is ever a load of people standing around waiting for someone to go to ground so they can jump on them, they're all too busy fighting their own battles.


#125999 - 07/01/03 01:37 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Cato said:
"I don't know that there is ever a load of people standing around waiting for someone to go to ground so they can jump on them, they're all too busy fighting their own battles."

I have to take exception to that. Group fights are a very weird dynamic, and people drift in and out from being participants.

In almost all the bar and street fights I have seen that progressed past a certain point (i.e. not just the original actors and their respective allies, but free-for-alls) there have been some individuals who roam the fringes looking for targets of opportunity.

They will hit people from behind, kick people who are down, throw bottles, etc but they will not go "toe to toe" with anyone. I don't know exactly what they get out of it, but they usually show up.

I think grond fighting is an important part of training, but I would always avoid going to the ground, especially in group fights. If I go to the ground, it is against my will, and I will try to get my feet back under me as quickly as possible. There is just nothing good happening down there, whether I get attacked by a third party or roll over a broken bottle. Besides, it's dirty (LOL).

I'd have to think about whether you can call ground fighting techniques "aiki techniques", my inclination is to say that you can, but the circles are very small. But maybe they are "just" ju, and not aiki.

#126000 - 07/01/03 02:22 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Sorry mikey, crossed wires. I was referring specifically to the argument over whether samurai in the heat of pitched battle would go to ground or not. In that case scenario everyone would be directly involved in the fighting, and so not able to pitch in from the sidelines. I agree that a bar room brawl is a different prospect alltogether. Sorry, I should've explained myself better first time. [IMG][/IMG]

I have a fairly fixed idea of what constitutes aiki and what doesn't, and I think that a lot of what is passed off as aiki is in fact found in ju jutsu. Aiki jutsu is after all also called Aiki Ju Jutsu. There is a lot of ju in aiki jutsu, but no aiki in ju jutsu...I think. (Does that make sense to anyone other than me??)


#126001 - 07/01/03 03:31 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???
Ed Glasheen Offline

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Depends on where you train. See my explination above. Remember Aikido came from Jujutsu. Mainly Daito Ryu as most people write about O-sensei's history. But he did study other types of Jujutsu. And what about his Chinese trip? I'm sure there were influences.
Talking about multi fights. Once I had to detain two women. I was working with a partner at the time. We went in for the arrest and low and behold their two rather large nephews came to thier aid. They didn' care who we were, they were going to get auntie free. So I took one nephew down and my partner took the other nephew done. Yes we were grappiling and because they had no clue it was pretty easy. But I remember focusing on the one nephew I was dealing with. The other people were in my mind but only distantly. The outcome was to our favor. But my point is when you get taken to the ground it is too late to learn ground fighting. You have to practice everyday to get good to the point of dominating most people.This is where I feel Aikido is lacking. All martial arts evolve and improve due to the current situations. There was a match in Brazil between an Aikido guy and a BJJ guy. The Aikido stylist held off the BJJ guy for quite a long time. He did a really good job at it too. But in the end the BJJ guy got the mount and choked the Aikido guy out.
To survive on the ground you have to know reversals,how to keep and maintain dominate positions and most importantly gain the experience to feel the technique. Nothing in the current Aikido sylabus will help you if you get mounted . Nothing! So if Aikido is going to be an effective in the street, they are going to have to adapt and change the sylabus.I personal think Aikido is a beautiful art. I enjoy watching it performed especially Chiba sensei.So I am not biased in my opinions. Just thought you should know. Ed

#126002 - 08/06/03 04:11 PM Re: Is aikido street effective???

Akido v.s BJJ

I am a Shotokan practioner and wrestler (not grappler). No offense to anyone, I am probably not as qualified as most of you to post a reply here but . . .

BJJ guys practise rolling and resisting on the ground, but their stand up game is bad. They don't practise for resistance standing up. That's most likely why the Akido guy gave the BJJ guy a hard time taking the fight to the ground.

Stand up v.s Ground fighting.

Well it depends. I the guy is tall/Medium/Short but skinny I'll opt for the ground. I is builted and heavy looking I'd rather do stand up and avoid taking the fight to the ground.

In the streets people look for people they can pick on. A 5"1 115 lbs guys won't pick on a guy 6"4 and 250 lbs. In a case like this you better not take the fight to the ground if you want to escape from this monster. It'll be easier for you to escape if he's not sitting on top of you.

I mean sometimes fights do end with one of more combatants on the ground (first regardless of how well trained you are, he's gonna take the fight to the ground not you) he's gonna knock you to the ground with his huge fists and when you fall he's gonna jump on you and punch your head like a bag. You won't be able to escape. In situations like this it's better to run and you can't run if your tied up in a knot and laying on the ground.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 08-06-2003).]

#126003 - 06/12/04 01:58 AM Re: Is aikido street effective???
mugen Offline

Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 52
Loc: Davis, CA, USA
Actually, certain dojos in the Yoshinkan Aikido division employ techniques from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as a way to complement Aikido. See Aikido Today magazine from 1996. If you think about it though, a truly accomplished Aikidoist should not end up on the ground in a choke by a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioner, and if he does then he should know Kaeshi Waza, taught by Saito Sensei.

#126004 - 06/21/04 03:07 AM Re: Is aikido street effective???
reaperblack Offline

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
The biggest difference between ground fighting and stand up fighting is the position of the ground. I know this seems obvious but it is really hard to travel through a circular path with your back flat on the ground, it is really hard to pull something toward your hara when your opponents body and the ground are on opposite sides of it. Most aikido movements require too much movement to be very usefull on the ground. The locks still apply they are just much harder to use, unless you are behind your opponent on top of him, in which case, who cares.
I speak here of ikkyo, nikkyo, sonkyo, and yonkyo. Even if you were in a mounted position you would end up unbalancing yourself to get the proper hand positioning. Or just getting beaten senseless while you were trying to.

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