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#125915 - 04/24/03 06:36 PM Can it be effective though??
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Ok I know this has probably been talked about a lot already, but I'm too lazy to go hunting through hundreds of posts.

I get the impression, from the few posts I've read, that classical Aikido is not much use as street effective system, requireing many years to become adapt and having too many flowery movements, but requires adaptation.

Because my knowledge of Aikido or Aiki jutsu or anything of that ilk, is exceptionally limited I would like to ask, how easy is it to adapt, given that complex and/or fine motor movements are difficult to perform whilst under pressure, to a street effective system?

Budo.

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#125916 - 04/25/03 02:00 AM Re: Can it be effective though??
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I think it depends on your knowledge of not just Aikido, but other arts. As an example if you would see Small Circle Jujutsu, it looks like Aikido, but the big circles are gone, and this art is street effective. Knowing this and Aikido would make the adaptation easier. If you have no other knowledge than Aikido, you would have to be in a street fight to understand what is necessary to adapt it to the street. It also depends on HOW you perform your art. Many of the old Aiki masters do indeed small circle and its more Jujutsu like. The big problem is in Aikido, the attacks are simulated with guidelines. It can be made to work, but you must practice it that way. If Aikido was studied as a fighting art, adaptation wouldn't be needed as much, but there is more to Aikido than just the physical, so it is not overely concerned about street effectiveness. I think that you can look at it like this. The biggest questions about Aikido's ineffectiveness is based on comparison. People see Aikido and Karate or Jujutsu as being one more effective than the other. Aikido was not meant to defend against a Karate-Ka. So people compare the fighting systems which isn't fair. On the street against an average Joe, Aikido would be realtively effective, agaist a street fighter, a person who knows how to fight but hasn't been trained, and that percentage would decrease, and I would quess a 50-50 proposition. Against a trained Martial Artist, I don't think the art would fair to well, but............its not a fair comparison, as it isn't meant to do so. If Aikido wanted to defend against a martial artist, they would change some of the attacks, so to practice against attacks more common to the genre, say backfist, or hammerfist. Having said that, there are Aiki styles that are more fighting oriented, but they are not the norm. Aikido is very traditional and teaches many lessons, an art form if you will, but to make it applicable it takes a bit of understanding. Remember too, Karate needs to be adapted for sparring or the street. You don't punch from the chamber-fight in horse stance, or keep your hands at your sides. Those are training tools, and fighting needs to be adapted to you, same with Aiki, however it takes a bit more practice if you don't have any other knowledge of the martial arts.

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#125917 - 04/25/03 08:51 AM Re: Can it be effective though??
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Goodness me, will this question never go away?

First off, I'd be interested to know of an art that doesn't require some adaptation for "street" fighting.


Second, I'm sure very art has it's own idiosyncracies. Things that a person unfamiliar with that style would think complicated and unduly difficult. That's what makes it an art in the first place, for Christ sake!!I also think aikido is less complicated than non aikidoka think. I mean, nikkyo, sankyo, kote gaeshi etc. aren't that difficult to apply are they?

Aiki jutsu and ju jutsu are primarily arts for "real life" fighting, they require only a little adaptation to make them work, because they don't have flowery movements ("Jutsu" as opposed to "Do"). I would say they are more in tune with real fighting than is karate, TKD, kempo etc.

Aikido has always suffered at the hands of non-aikidoka. Probably because there is such a wide variation of aikido styles being taught. Think of it as being like Tai Chi. Combat tai chi is a very, very good martial art, but it is rarely practiced as such. The same is true of aikido. Pre war aiki is extremely effective (Jigoku dojo - You don't get a name like that for flowery movements!!).

As for aikido attcks not being realistic. Do you honestly think karate attacks are? I certainly don't, but then I understand that training is not fighting, there is a reason why attacks are done as they are. The same goes for aiki. The level of compliance drops as you progress through the grades. If you started out resisting aiki techniques as a beginner you would be unable to reach higher grades 'cos your joints wouldn't be able to stand up to the training. I'd call that a strength myself.

Sorry to rant, but I get tired of aikido taking a bashing when it doesn't suffer from any complaint that isn't common to a lot of other, supposedly "street effective" arts.

Budo

PS I've broken my keyboard through hitting the keys too hard, and it's all your fault, Juds. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

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#125918 - 04/25/03 09:55 AM Re: Can it be effective though??
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
I can relate to your frustration, Cato. However...

Goodness me, are we every going to stop comparing arts?

Why do we need to put down other arts to feel better about our own?

I can't speak on arts that I have no training in (TKD), but the last time I checked, kempo and karate are both battlefield tested fighting systems. I would say they are no less in tune with real fighting than is aiki jutsu, jujiutsu etc.

Sure, aiki arts suffered more bashing than other arts, even though they all go through the same process in history and turned into "do" from "jutsu". Do we really have to start putting down other systems to make it even?

Sensei Lou reminded me of a Japanese word in an e-mail. "chigau" - different. When Japanese indicate they disagree, they don't tell you you are wrong, they tell you, "chigau" - it's different.

Sure, Karate isn't like aiki. They are different. Does that make the other system wrong? Inferior? Less in tune with "real fighting"?

I am sure you are sick of people putting down aikido. And I assure you I am very sick of people judging other arts as inferior just because they haven't truly engaged themselves into it and therefore do not understand it.

There, I broke my keyboard too. I hope you're paying for it.

-raccoon

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#125919 - 04/25/03 03:07 PM Re: Can it be effective though??
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Let's not forget one important point...........Its not the technique, but the technician, its not the art but the artist. So when you view an art or a style or a technique remember who is doing it. Aikido may get a bad rap because of the way a majority of the people practice. The difference not comparing the two but the difference in Aikido training and Karate training, is in most Karate schools you can't go 50%, or even 75%, Karate Sensei, because of image, or how they were taught tend to be harder assed in the Dojo. Having done both, I can tell you my hardest Aikido class, was no where near the average Karate class. And when you sloff off in Karate class, Sensei had your ass, and damn near killed you. Many a night I barely could walk out the dojo. Aikido is not like that, for the most part, and that I think that is why Aikido gets the repetation it does. I in no way feel any art is inferior to another, done with heart and spirit. Many Aikido classes spend time on Ki and energy transfer and it winds up looking like Tai Chi. The participants are getting something out of the training(I think) but the observers don't. I believe its all a matter of perception. I saw an old Aiki student who trained with us last week, and when he saw what we did, he thought we were thugs, criminals and barbarians, there is no need to treat someone in that manner was his reply. What he was seeing is an old Aiki student, not following the Aiki path, not a Jujutsuist who tries to be effective, its all perception.

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#125920 - 04/25/03 03:20 PM Re: Can it be effective though??
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Oh dear. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]

Perhaps I should have expressed myself more clearly. My intention was not to bash Aikido, but to try and understand it more clearly.

As I said, my understanding of the Art is extremely limited.

My angle is this. Many people I come across believe that their striking art is super duper and can do all sorts. Don't worry I learnt the hard way that Karate isn't necassarily street effective [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

So since fights tend to end up in grappling, I figured that an attacker has got to move towards you, and will do so at pace.

From my limited understanding of Aikido, you use your attackers momentum to enable the technique, the same principle I believe that is used in Judo, Tai Chi etc.

So from this point, and the understanding that a good majority of Arts will require adaptations to increase their street effectiveness, my question should have been can it be effective easily?

Are there simple priciples that can be transfered onto the street arena?

If so, what are they and where can I learn more?

(sorry about your keyboards [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG])

Budo.

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#125921 - 04/25/03 04:57 PM Re: Can it be effective though??
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
raccoon, I'm not putting down any art, I'm merely making the point that aiki is no different from other arts. My first martial art was Wado Ryu karate so I'm not completely ignorant of the art. I also believe you don't have to be adriving instructor to recognise bad driving. Some karate etc. is just as bad as any aikido. Mcdojo's prevail across the arts, they don't just reside within aiki, although you would soon get that impression from reading these boards.

You may well feel kempo and karate are realistic for street fighting, but that is not an opinion I share. I have only very rarely seen a fight where two people square off and trade punches, in a way that would favour a striking art. Almost without fail a fight will at some point involve grappling. That is why I think grappling arts are more realistic. It has nothing to do with battlefield effectiveness.

I also don't buy into the "my karate would stop them getting close" or "my karate has grappling" line. Why? Because I've never seen either. Karate is, by and large, a contact sport. Kempo is, I think, a different matter, but to find authentic kempo is difficult. Most, if not all, of what I have seen promoted as kempo is in fact ju jutsu with karate style strikes added.

It's funny but I've trained in aikido for quite a while, even hold a dan grade in it, yet I am forever being told what my art is like, what it lacks and why it wont work. Strangely, as soon as I point out it has only the same deficiencies as most other arts, people start to get defensive about what they do.

So what that karate lesson are more rigorous than aikido lessons? Where's the value in that? It is entirely matterless how rock hard anyone's sensei may happen to be, or that they like to prove it at any given opportunity. Bullying is bullying, be it in a dojo or school playground, and personally I would not allow myself to be bullied by anyone.

BUDO and CHIGAU

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#125922 - 04/25/03 06:00 PM Re: Can it be effective though??
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Hmmm.
SenseiLou makes an interesting point. He mentions that, in order to make aikido street effective, it takes a deep knowledge of the principles and concepts. He mentioned that the attacks are very conceptualized, so it takes a LOT of training, discipline, insight, and study to use it in a powerful manner. Perhaps this was O'sensei's intention? Obviously, knowing what he knew, he could have churned out a small army of death dealers in a very short time. But he didn't want that. He wanted to develop strong, intelligent, hardworking people who can see the world in a certain light. Not badasses.

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#125923 - 04/25/03 07:20 PM Re: Can it be effective though??
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
My sincere apologies to everyone. I've spoke disrespectfully.
-Cody

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-26-2003).]

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#125924 - 04/25/03 07:39 PM Re: Can it be effective though??
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Practice like you play! Once again I stress perception. Watch a hard ass Karate workout, and a hard ass Aikido workout, and the perception will be that Karateka are tougher and better, but its perception. Most Karateka can't take the pain of Joint locking but people who watch see people tap, they don't know the about the pain, its perception. And I would disagree about hard classes, not bullying, physically challenging. A hard class challenges your body beyond what you think you can do, and thats training. A walk in the park is not a run, and a run in the park is not a marathon. Practice like you play!!!!

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