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#125906 - 07/03/05 07:10 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: Ninjasaurus]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

best technique against a shoot is a shuffle backwards as they come in at your legs and then an elbow smash onto their neck/spine.




This...is idiotic. Everyone who has ever claimed to be able to do this has ended up tapping in less than two minutes.

Quote:


of course u can alwayz do pivotz and evading but chances are they are athletic enuff so they will be able 2 reach and get a grab on your leg or body and take u down.




God forbid you should become an athlete.

Quote:


lotz of aikido techniquez can be used when ur on the ground 2. grapplerz try 2 get positioning so they can use their weight and pressure u in2 certain positionz so they can get a certain hold or technique on u so they will be grabbing ur wristz and armz and shoulerz a lot 2 get u in2 position so u can use ur wrist manipulation techniquez and hurt them bad




How exactly do you execute a wrist lock from under knee on stomach position?

Quote:


and the best thing 2 do when sum1 is pummeling u is 2 pull in2 them so they cant swing at u and if it was a real fight i would bite their neck like a vampire and brush my teeth in peace




Good lord, you're just a ball of disproven cliches tonight.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#125907 - 07/03/05 07:14 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: katsuhayai05]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


Well I've seen some defenses that can be used in aikido for a shot and I've shown some before during our class.




How functional are they? Have you ever tried them against a BJJ purple belt?
I sparred with an aikido instructor at the last bullshido mcthrowdown (look for austin mcthrowdown thread), and he quickly agreed with me that aikido antigrappling simply does not work and wrist locks do not work from under a bad position.

Quote:


I also have wrestling experience and I can tell you if you pull out some wrestling moves on bjj they won't know whats going on




Ummm....Most BJJers have at least wrestled in high school. In fact, most takedowns in BJJ are wrestling based.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#125908 - 07/04/05 12:21 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: Ubermint]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
I'd rather drill my shoot defenses with a seasoned wrestler thank ya very much.


"Most BJJers have at least wrestled in high school. In fact, most takedowns in BJJ are wrestling based"

--really? you did a poll?


Second of all, saying something like that is bad reasoning and I will demonstrate how. If someone were to tell me that they've seen some BJJ defenses against multiple attackers, I would ask them "Are they functional? Have you tried them against 3-4 judo blue belts?" Now, if a good sample of BJJ players told me they've effectively used BJJ to defend against 4-5 attackers, then I will give credence to claims about BJJ's effectiveness against multiple attackers. They worked,

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#125909 - 07/04/05 01:13 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

I'd rather drill my shoot defenses with a seasoned wrestler thank ya very much.




That's far from a bad idea. Still, wouldn't you want to know what to do if he pulls guard? Goes for a guillotine ot other sub? Etc.


Quote:

"Most BJJers have at least wrestled in high school. In fact, most takedowns in BJJ are wrestling based"

--really? you did a poll?




No, I train at a BJJ academy. Just look at their backgrounds. BJJ and wrestling are intertwined.

Quote:


Second of all, saying something like that is bad reasoning and I will demonstrate how. If someone were to tell me that they've seen some BJJ defenses against multiple attackers, I would ask them "Are they functional? Have you tried them against 3-4 judo blue belts?"




That would be a reasonable response. White belts would be acceptable too, but the striking would have to be full power.

Quote:


Now, if a good sample of BJJ players told me they've effectively used BJJ to defend against 4-5 attackers, then I will give credence to claims about BJJ's effectiveness against multiple attackers. They worked,




You've got your reasoning backward. The first question was a good one, but this qualification you give is entirely anecdotal. All they would have to do to "prove" their effectiveness would be to lie.
And unverifiable stories are what Mcdojoism thrives on.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#125910 - 07/04/05 01:57 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: Ubermint]
WarriorOfLuv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 35
HAha sorrry. I didn't mean to post the last two blurbs you responded to. My brain is not working right now.

But, on to the relevant points:

1) The likelihood of a wild attacker pulling guard on me in the streets is slim to nil. Shooting for the legs on the other hand is a common, high percentage move that can be used effectively by both the untrained streetfighter and the seasoned wrestler.

2) Your school is not representative of all BJJ schools out there.


Edited by WarriorOfLuv (07/04/05 01:58 AM)

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#125911 - 07/04/05 02:53 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: WarriorOfLuv]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Before this degenerates into a slagging match, I want to make one thing clear.

Aikido is NOT a groundfighting paradigm, so Aikido vs BJJ/Shootfighting is moot. Whoever is the better opponent will win. Period. I don't think further discussion is warranted.

That being said, Aikido is based on universal principles which are found in many other arts. So it would logically follow that some principles can be used on the ground, provided there is a technical repertoire to back it up. IMVHO, traditional aikido does not have such a repertoire, although people like Jason DeLucia have been able to adapt aikido principles to the ground. He is a good example of someone who looked beyond the basics to applied techniques, and I strongly suggest that it would be wise to do the same.

So if anyone has anything further to add which is on topic, I will leave this thread open for the time being. Any sign of a slagging match and this thread will be canned.

Kapish?



For the record, BJJ is derived from Judo/Jiujitsu - whether it is the Gracie line or Franca line, they all descended from Esai Maeda. Maeda was a Kodokan fighter who had specialist knowledge of Fusen-ryu ground fighting techniques after the Kodokan's ignomious defeat in the early 1900s. The link between wrestling and BJJ is so far removed, I don't think it would be accurate to even vaguely associate the two, much less state that BJJ is derived from wrestling. I would suggest a quick check on the historical facts before making such a claim.

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#125912 - 07/05/05 06:21 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: Robaikido]
AikiGhost Offline
Member

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 85
Loc: UK
Quote:

I had a mate who is a rugby player try running at me to tackle me, same as a bjj, or, it looks the same.

I had never defended like this before, so I reacted naturally

to tackle someone to the ground, you have to lead with a shoulder, or you'll get kicked in the head

when he dropped his shoulder, i stepped to that same side and pulled off the best kaiten age ive ever done, much to his distress :-)




Sorry but this is unmitigated rubbish. If you are doing a BJJ style takedown usually you throw afew jabs or a low kick first then lower and shoot with your hands out on from you DO NOT LEAD WITH YOUR SHOULDER at all. The Shoulder is used after the leg is secured in contact wth the knee to drive through to the ground. Also as a 7 year aikidoka I think that a lot of people in aikido overestimate their chances of avoiding takedown against a trained BJJ/MAA grappler, these guys train to take down fully resisting opponents every session and Ive got to say they get effective quite fast


Edited by AikiGhost (07/05/05 06:26 AM)
_________________________
AikiGhost 4 years MMA Submission Wrestling / MMA (ongoing)

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#125913 - 07/07/05 11:58 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: AikiGhost]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I've wrestled and I practice aikido. I can tell you that most of the peopel who say they'll tenkan blah blah ... no way in hell they'd pull it off unless they actually practice against shots from people who actually have wrestled or practiced a grappling art. Plain and simple you can't do something you haven't ever practiced before I don't care how many years or black belts you have.

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#125914 - 07/30/05 03:25 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: AikiGhost]
wer Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 31
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

I was just wondering if anyone out there has seen or developed an aiki-defence against a BJJ or wrestling type shoot fighter. I realize the first response would be to keep proper ma'ai and all that, but apart from this best case scenerio what would your response be?



I train with Jason DeLucia. We actually practice sprawls for if someone manages to shoot in on us; the aiki part is how you continue from there.

Aikido actually has had groundwork all along -- suwari waza and work from seiza, and there are some cool old photos on aikidog.com's forums in the "Aikido in Fighting" section of "Aikido Arm Bars, Rear Chokes and Full Guard by Real Masters" and "O'Sensei's Front Choke and Side Choke." That's just not what most Aikido schools teach these days. But if you go back to the roots and work from the basic principles, there's plenty you can adapt to counter BJJ. We have a good time in class; some of the students have wrestling backgrounds, and sometimes we test it against visiting BJJers.

And although I know it's an old post (April 2004,aikido_budo1), since I'm here I may as well set the record straight:

Quote:

Aikido was 80%( I think that's the quote) atemi!



The O'Sensei quote is really, "Atemi accounts for 99% of Aikido" as quoted by various people, including Morihiro Saito in "Traditional Aikido."

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