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#125896 - 10/21/04 11:49 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Anonymous
Unregistered


If shot in on nothing beats a good old fashioned crossface. Once free of his grip the cross face can easily become irimi nage or hadaka jime

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#125897 - 10/29/04 12:04 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shotokan:

About the "gaurd" [not just the BJJ gaurd but Judo, Ju Jitsu, Sambo, Freestyle, even if a Karateka or non-martial artist]...heck everyone's gaurd. (I used the BJJ gaurd because it made it easier to explain my point)...[/QUOTE]


There is no use of the guard in Sambo or Western wrestling. In Western wrestling, you can win by a pin, so obviously the guard is not used. In sambo, you get points for pinning--ditto. The guard is unique to BJJ and judo. It was apparently a feature of the ne-waza of Fusen-ryu jujutsu, which was later incorporated into Kodokan judo. Even in the early 1900s, when judoka/jujutsuka and catch wrestlers began exchanging ideas and techniques (largely through competitions), modifications were made. For example, when judo's juji-gatame was added to catch wrestling as the "Japanese armbar", it was applied while lying on one's side, because the wrestler couldn't have both shoulders touching the mat (in Professional catch, one could win by either submission or pin).

In any event, the guard as it is used in submission grappling and MMA/NHB is from BJJ, which in turn comes from judo. However, BJJ resembles "old" judo, in that groundwork is given way more emphasis. Hence, emphasis on the guard.

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#125898 - 10/29/04 12:22 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
I have a bit of problem with these mixed martial arts styles because I think they try to do just that. They seem to teach that you must learn punching so you can fight a boxer, grappling to fight a wrestleer and so forth. I think that is wrong. I believe in a fight you should stick to what you're best at, in order to maximise your chances. Of course, there are plenty of people who will disagree.[/QUOTE]

So then, you're basically saying that you disagree with the methods and tactical approach of the Ancient Greek pankration (which is where all this cross-training began, THOUSANDS of years ago).

Pankration means "all powers" for a good reason--it was much like modern MMA/NHB. You had to be competent in all areas of unarmed combat--striking, throwing, takedowns, and ground wrestling/subs. You might have specialized in only one or two aspects (as many of the top fighters today do), but you still had to have a solid understanding of all areas, in order to survive.

The Romans continued with this tradition, with their own version of the same event (the pancratium).

And the last time I checked, the Greeks and Romans knew a thing or two about combat.

In fact, the Romans made great use of cross-training in their military as well. Legionaries typically fought as heavy infantry with sword and shield, but they were also instructed in things like basic archery, basic slinging, and basic horsemanship. Some legionaries also had to serve in dual roles--as both heavy infantry, and sometimes as specialist light infantry (antesignani). They also knew (and used) combative wrestling. The Romans were as "eclectic" as they came, and that's why they had an Empire that lasted so long.

So, I really have to laugh when people bring up MMA/cross-training--the so-called "eclectic" approach--as if it's something new. Obviously, it's not.

Fighters have used that approach for a very long time.




[This message has been edited by Armed_Man_Piker (edited 10-29-2004).]

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#125899 - 10/29/04 06:22 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
For the "grappler" to grapple he has to take hold of you. Aikido teaches us effective ways to deal with people grabbing hold of us, in fact we often encourage them to do so so we can employ our aiki. It is in no way a "given" that the grappler will be able to grapple an aikidoka to the floor in the first place.[/QUOTE]

No offense meant, Cato, but if you genuinely believe that, then you must be pretty naive as to what grapplers train in, and what they are capable of.

[QUOTE]...if that is what he trains for then he has the advantage. But it is a big "if".[/QUOTE]

LOL--grapplers TRAIN FOR takedowns and throws! BJJ players, shootfighters, freestyle & Greco-Roman wrestlers, samboists, etc--they're all out to either dump you on your head, or otherwise bring you to the ground, and finish you from there. Unless an aikidoka trains to defend against both single- and double-leg shoots (as common in freestyle), as well as against throws and takedowns from the clinch (as common in Greco-Roman), he's going to get taken down--simple as that.

[QUOTE]
In my view mixing a little ground fighting with your aikido will not be enough to overcome the advantage that a grappler has on the floor. You have to train exclusively for ground fighting if you want to fight on the ground. Then you condede the advantage to the aikidoka when yyour both standing up. Aikido tries to negate the need to fight on the ground, rather than giving ways to do so.[/QUOTE]


If you want to avoid going to the ground, then you have to train in things like Western wrestling, judo, sambo, etc.




[This message has been edited by Armed_Man_Piker (edited 10-29-2004).]

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#125900 - 05/04/05 10:09 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: Joe Jutsu]
AikiGhost Offline
Member

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 85
Loc: UK
Quote:

I was just wondering if anyone out there has seen or developed an aiki-defence against a BJJ or wrestling type shoot fighter. I realize the first response would be to keep proper ma'ai and all that, but apart from this best case scenerio what would your response be?




I would say irmri as he shoots and try and time it so you get his back. Alternately like you said keep miai, althoug thats pretty tough against a trained shooter.

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#125901 - 05/05/05 12:01 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: AikiGhost]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:




I would say irmri as he shoots and try and time it so you get his back. Alternately like you said keep miai, althoug thats pretty tough against a trained shooter.




Irimi means entering. You have a great chance of entering against an experienced grappler.

By which I mean entering dreamland after you get dumped on your head.


Edited by Hedgehogey (05/05/05 02:31 AM)

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#125902 - 05/05/05 07:16 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: Hedgehogey]
AikiGhost Offline
Member

Registered: 07/15/04
Posts: 85
Loc: UK
Its all a matter of timeing, Ive certainly got the backs of bjj guys while standing up during my training (ok maybe they arent the best graplers in the world, but they were trained)

Just so you know Im not a pure aikidoka, I cross train in bjj and shootfighting and do experiment with this stuff when were in the mood a bit of fun.

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#125903 - 05/13/05 12:25 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: AikiGhost]
Ninjasaurus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 73
best technique against a shoot is a shuffle backwards as they come in at your legs and then an elbow smash onto their neck/spine. of course u can alwayz do pivotz and evading but chances are they are athletic enuff so they will be able 2 reach and get a grab on your leg or body and take u down. lotz of aikido techniquez can be used when ur on the ground 2. grapplerz try 2 get positioning so they can use their weight and pressure u in2 certain positionz so they can get a certain hold or technique on u so they will be grabbing ur wristz and armz and shoulerz a lot 2 get u in2 position so u can use ur wrist manipulation techniquez and hurt them bad and the best thing 2 do when sum1 is pummeling u is 2 pull in2 them so they cant swing at u and if it was a real fight i would bite their neck like a vampire and brush my teeth in peace

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#125904 - 06/28/05 10:58 PM Jason DeLuca [Re: Ninjasaurus]
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
Has anyone mentioned Jason Deluca's video series on applying aikido to MMA? He was a pancrase fighter I believe and was in the first 2 UFCs. I haven't seen the video but apparentally it isn't bad and is directed toward the practical application of aikido techniques to sport fighting. You can find it at Budovideos.com if I remember correctly.
_________________________
Matthew Rogers www.spiritforging.com

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#125905 - 07/03/05 10:11 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters [Re: Joe Jutsu]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
Quote:

I was just wondering if anyone out there has seen or developed an aiki-defence against a BJJ or wrestling type shoot fighter. I realize the first response would be to keep proper ma'ai and all that, but apart from this best case scenerio what would your response be? I was a pretty descent wrestler in high school, and I think if someone shot really deep in on me I'd probably have to throw the technical side of my Aikido training out the door, and resort to the wrestling techniques that I know work for me. The problem that I could see is that those damn BJJ guys would choke me out before I knew what the hell is going on (sorry, no offence to any BJJ guys, I have a lot of respect for what you do). So anyway, I would never want to get into a wrestling match with one, ever. I highly doubt that I will ever get into an altercation with a BJJ practitioner, so this question is not pragmatic but really purely hypothetical. I'd appreciate any thoughts that you guys have out there.

Thanks,
Joe Jutsu





Well I've seen some defenses that can be used in aikido for a shot and I've shown some before during our class. I also have wrestling experience and I can tell you if you pull out some wrestling moves on bjj they won't know whats going on but if you don't have any exposure to bjj the same may be true for you.

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