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#125886 - 06/25/04 04:39 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Joe Jutsu Offline

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robaikido:
I had a mate who is a rugby player try running at me to tackle me, same as a bjj, or, it looks the same.

I had never defended like this before, so I reacted naturally

to tackle someone to the ground, you have to lead with a shoulder, or you'll get kicked in the head

when he dropped his shoulder, i stepped to that same side and pulled off the best kaiten age ive ever done, much to his distress :-)

I've heard that kaitenage is generally the preferred response to a tackle, but to me it sounds very hard to pull off. I tip my hat to you sir [IMG][/IMG]


#125887 - 06/27/04 07:34 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Robaikido Offline

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
It was different to the technique in the dojo, where you take the arm back first, then tak the head and throw

I took the head and arm at the same time, and turned them both sharply anti-cloclwise, if that makes sense

I was happy to see the result :-D

#125888 - 07/02/04 07:33 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

Me on an Aikido forum? Never!

Actually, at purple belt on up, BJJ starts feling like Aikido on the ground. Believe it or not. Of course, 95% of BJJ players never get past blue.

Most BJJ Black Belts are poetry in motion when it comes to fluidity and effortless movement.

#125889 - 07/15/04 11:41 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

Ive been training aikdo for about 5 years now (1st kyu) and recently started taking a Mixed Martial Arts Class (Combo of bjj, wrestling and kickboxing) to suppliment my aikido.

Ive been going about 5 months now and i can tell you first hand that aikido does help keep you standing and you can get ikkyo, tenchi, kaiten and irimi style techniques on MMA guys if they dont see it coming. Nikyo and yonkyo DO NOT WORK ON MMA GUYS AT ALL even when standing up. I know because ive been trying for months and have never sucessfull gotten one on.

If you go to the ground with a trained grappler YOU WILL LOOSE, the instinctive things untraied people do on the ground are a godsend to a trained grapper especially if you land underneath and try pushing upwards.

If you have to fight a grapler irst you need to learn how to sprawl to avoid being taken down and the irimi, irmi, irimi [IMG][/IMG]

Id advise anyone who is serious about the martial applications of aikido to cross train in a floor orientated martial art (BBJ, Sombo, or MMA) for at least a few months. A couple of months will get you good enough at defending that you can defend a takedown disengage and get to good miai again. In fact in the 5 months ive been training in floorwork I can now defend myself quite sucessfully against guys who have been training a good while longer than me (I still cant beat them yet). But against newbies with no previous floor work I just dominate. Serpiusly give it 3 or 4 months and youll have enough floor work to beat the "average joe" most of the time on the ground.


#125890 - 07/16/04 10:31 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California

When you say that

"Nikyo and yonkyo DO NOT WORK ON MMA GUYS AT ALL even when standing up"

are you claiming that the two locks are fundamentally flawed or do you think there is some secrect to MMA that allows one to be immune to these locks?


#125891 - 07/16/04 10:59 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

[QUOTE]Originally posted by csinca:

When you say that

"Nikyo and yonkyo DO NOT WORK ON MMA GUYS AT ALL even when standing up"

are you claiming that the two locks are fundamentally flawed or do you think there is some secrect to MMA that allows one to be immune to these locks?


MMA guys are too good at closign the distance on you before you can make the Nikyo and yonkyo work, getting under the center of the tchnique or tying up the applying arm. Most of the times ive tried to get nikyo on the other guys at mma club even in half speed "transitional sparring" the can stop the technique and take you to the ground (where you do not want to be against a MMA/BJJ guy) by a leg grab. Iriminage works as it goes for the head and gets behind the defences. Ikkyo seems to work because you are taking them off balance instantly. As for yonkyo it probably doesnt work because the MMA guys I trin with can ignore a hell of a lot of pain. [IMG][/IMG]

I may be wrong, as Ive said Im only a 5 year aikido practicioner, but these MMA guys train so hard and so "anything goes" that I cant see me being able to use nikky or yonkyo effectively on them for a long time.

Im certanly glad I decided to do some cross training though, the floor is a completely different world [IMG][/IMG]


#125892 - 07/16/04 01:54 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I think I see where Chris is going with this. First of all when you talk about MMA, you are saying all MMA can stop this or it won't work. WRONG. Not all MMA practioners are all the same. My son, who is 22 weighs about 130 got a MMA practioner to tap out with a nikkyo lock applied from the ground. The practioner was a professional boxer but also trained in Sambo. He tapped him out!!It all depends on how you train and what you know. Maybe its because you don't know how to do the lock from different positions. Also, MMA are sport oriented, so many things are not allowed. Finger locks are outlawed, and I have used them extensively on the ground. Its not fair to lump all MMA practioners in one group. You have sport guys who train for sport, but there are others who cross train and its for other purposes(self-defense being one). I personally have gotten several kickbboxers to submit to my Nikkyo, so its all how you apply it. Now my Nikkyo is not 'pure Aikido' version of Nikkyo, mine more Jujutsu oriented. Everyone should not be lumped into a group or tagged with a label. And Chris, you and I know there is nothing fundementally wrong with Nikkyo. Yonkyo is another story. It only works half the time anyway and I wouldn't use it at all. Its like looking for pressure points in a fight, it just takes too long.

#125893 - 08/06/04 05:11 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

I would like to agree with senseilou. A lot of these MMA guys have certain strengths and weaknesses, but that does not mean that Aikido techniques are not applicable. I have personally found in competition that nikyo works well. Many ground fighters are looking for the triangle, jujigatame, chokes, and key lock. A much smaller percentage is concerning themselves with things like Nikyo. You may find that many of the smaller joint locks in Aikido are excellent on the ground especially against someone trained in competition style grappeling since many of them are not allowed in matches, fighters are not expecting them.

#125894 - 08/30/04 06:42 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
aikido_budo1 Offline

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 4
Loc: Newport News/Va. U.S.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Jutsu:
I was just wondering if anyone out there has seen or developed an aiki-defence against a BJJ or wrestling type shoot fighter. I realize the first response would be to keep proper ma'ai and all that, but apart from this best case scenerio what would your response be? I was a pretty descent wrestler in high school, and I think if someone shot really deep in on me I'd probably have to throw the technical side of my Aikido training out the door, and resort to the wrestling techniques that I know work for me. The problem that I could see is that those damn BJJ guys would choke me out before I knew what the hell is going on (sorry, no offence to any BJJ guys, I have a lot of respect for what you do). So anyway, I would never want to get into a wrestling match with one, ever. I highly doubt that I will ever get into an altercation with a BJJ practitioner, so this question is not pragmatic but really purely hypothetical. I'd appreciate any thoughts that you guys have out there.

Joe Jutsu

I'd just like to say that Joe do what I do- I am a dedicated Aikidoka but I cross train so to speak.Ive worked with wrestling/grappling and juijitsu and tae kown do and a little hap ki do. I dont think any one art ever has all the answers! But a combination of things with one art that fits u more than the others is probably best! Study some ground technique and add into your tool box! It cant hurt. And I hope you do know there are some deffenses that I have seen aginst a leg attack. And something to remember is that Aiki is not totally non agressive! O'Sensei Aikido was 80%( I think that's the quote) atemi! So hit his hind parts right in a vital spot! Nose, ears, solar plexus etc.....I know he's not really thought of much now but back in the day when he was in shape and stuff Seagal was awesome and he added some karate stuff into his Aiki. It was more street wise Aikido. Being in harmony doesnt mean u totally dont do anything. Hope I helped.

#125895 - 10/11/04 03:33 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

Training 5 years of aikido is probably not long enough amout of time to get your nikyo and yonkyo working on anyone - even in the aikido dojo. Eventually, these techniques work on anyone - given the proper situation - but initially they were brilliantly designed by O-sensei to NOT WORK WITH SURFACE LEVEL UNDERSTANDING.

When my sensei does these techniques on me, I do not feel any pain - but I have no choice but to take ukemi. I suppose I could resist a nikkyo by twisting my arms away - but that would invite an elbow into my chest or something less desireable.

I know that aikido works very well. I still have a lot of work to do to be able to apply what I practice in the dojo to these outside situations. The MMA folks are a great resource to work out with and practice how to deal with sophisticated kamakazi-style fighting attacks. Aikido folks can be great resources to MMA folks as well. Find friendship seminars and attend them. If you cannot find them, get some started!


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