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#125876 - 01/17/04 10:13 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

Shotokan, you are entitled to your opinion, but the statements you make show how little you know or understand about Bjj.
Bjj is based on pre-WWII judo.As such it has many techniques for stand-up fighting,dealing with kicks and punches.It's focus is on proper body positioning, "feeling" the opponents balance and disrupting it(hmmm,sound a little like some other art,but which one?) Basicly, if you are using muscle to force a technique, you are not doing BJJ.

As for the guard.Its purpose is not to merely flop on your back and try not to get hit.From the guard I am controling my opponents hips-the center of gravity where balance comes from.If I can control your center of balance I can keep you from effectively striking, unbalance you so I can escape or maneover you into a position for a lock.Yes, a lock, not submission hold,since submission hold seems to confuse some.A submission hold is the name for the technique in a tournament,NHB event-when used in real self defense it is a lock or break(ie. during practice we do armbar with control to point where partner taps out to keep arm from breaking-in street I would not stop or do it with more speed,snapping the arm).
Bjj may not have the spiritual, esoteric elements of Aikido, but like many other arts the some of the principles are pretty damn close.

Ps. Feel better Shotokan-someone responded to this thread and other post about this thread. [IMG][/IMG]

[This message has been edited by nekogami13 (edited 01-17-2004).]

#125877 - 01/17/04 10:30 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

Sorry if you took it that way I didn't mean to say anything bad about BJJ...the BJJ guys can use techniques to save them in the streets too...and yes I am aware of BJJ's stand up techniques...(not much different from Judo)...

I did make reference to the Pride/UFC/NHB to illustrate that this "my art can beat yours is a stupid topic to start with"...(something the Gracies do alot of [IMG][/IMG]...if I have any rotten feelings it's not against BJJ it is against the Gracies...I actually like other BJJ artists)

Besides other great BJJ trainers that I know don't like the Gracies either [sort of jealous of the attention they are getting]

About the "gaurd" [not just the BJJ gaurd but Judo, Ju Jitsu, Sambo, Freestyle, even if a Karateka or non-martial artist]...heck everyone's gaurd. (I used the BJJ gaurd because it made it easier to explain my point)...There just isn't much you can do in this position to escape/protect yourself from the pressure and damage of an attack. Therefore the martial artists who look at pay per veiw should realize that their aren't any NHB/Pride/UFC rules to protect them on the streets [it's like entering a toughmans boxing match] and hence if you want to survive you can't fight like those NHB/Pride/UFC pro fighters. (Your strategy to stay safe has to be different)

A determined attacker only needs a few seconds to end the need more than a few seconds to get out of his mount too (a postion you are likely to assume in any all range fight). Do the math.

Sorry I always stray away from my topic "alittle" [IMG][/IMG] Just note the the biasedness in my voice wasn't against BJJ but the Gracies and those NHB/UFC/Pride style fights.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 01-17-2004).]

#125878 - 01/17/04 10:41 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

(a good example is the BJJ gaurd where the BJJ practioner is taught to just lay there and avoid the pounding until the pounder gets tired or leaves an opening for a finish/and if he can't get out he will simply submit-Shotokan

That is your statement about the guard.I was never taught to just lay there, whether I had someone in my guard or otherwise. As for stand up being alot like judo, bingo-got it in one.BJJ is based on old(pre olympic)judo,before they removed a lot of techniques(grapevining, etc)
I did not take it as an attack on BJJ.I merely believe you do not understand it and only have experienced it thru viewing a NHB event.While NHB is exciting for some to watch, you do not see or experience the essence of the art. Much like watching an aikido class and dismissing it as useless.

#125879 - 01/17/04 10:57 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Lets be practical here. You are at the grocery store, in the parking lot and you get in an altercation in the parking lot so you go to your guard in the parking lot. Not real pheasible is it. While BJJ has self-defense application, and is derived from early Jujutsu and Judo it has been amended to use in competition. The guard is great if you get thrown to the ground and need to stop someone from getting in the mount or on top of you, but to fight on the ground may not be too safe in public. My first BJJ instructor had just got here from Brazil.He went to the mall and got into a disagreement with a man who was obviously harrassing him and taunting him. My instructor, drove him to the ground, got into the mount and started to choke him out. He got arrested, and charged with assault, yet the other person instigated it. The cop told my instructor that when he went to the ground with the man, that made him the agressor. BJJ is unquestionably a good art, and can be self defense applied, but the guard is mainly used in competition. Otherwise, its a transition position to get superior body positioning. As I said in the other post, you just can't compare the 2 arts.

#125880 - 01/17/04 10:57 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

Sorry my misunderstanding [IMG][/IMG]

"I merely believe you do not understand it and only have experienced it thru viewing a NHB event"-Quote

You are right [IMG][/IMG]


What can you do from the gaurd? Use my e-mail if you like.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 01-17-2004).]

#125881 - 01/17/04 11:13 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

Videos of techniques from guard,few for when you are in guard.May have to register to download/watch,but it is free.

#125882 - 01/17/04 05:37 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters


#125883 - 06/20/04 03:07 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
Can't we all just get along? Obviously not I just had a seminar and guess what, every body categorized or labeled themselves as a striker or a grappler. What has happened to the idea of being 'well rounded'. Why can't one strike and grapple. What the Gracies did back when was make the martial community aware of ground fighting. If you watch now, a metamorphisis has taken place. Stikers, Karate-ka are now learning BJJ and other ground arts, and grapplers are learning effective striking. Someone mentioned Pride, and if you watch pride you will see grapplers get beat, but also strikers lose to an arm bar. I study Sambo, and suppliment it with my Karate and my Jujutsu. I use to apologize for my ecclectic training, but not anymore, the best fighter is one who is well rounded and can strike lock and grapple. Its a shame to label oneself, and leave out valuable information that may assist in your training. I am currently working on grounding and pounding, a striking art for the ground, so to counter grappling, or grapple to counter striking. either way, its not one vs the other, its the accumilation of knowledge[/QUOTE]

I agree w/you in being a well rounded martial artist.This to me, is the stumbling block of most martial artists.they want to "belong".Its that age old desire to "be part of a movement", or club.I trained originally in tae-kwon-do(3 years.)-this was enough to win fights, but as i grew as a martial artist, i realized that i would have to take responsiblity for my own "way." and from thence, i studied What I WANTED TO STUDY.this included MANY arts.And eventually, i found my own "way".I believe EVERYONE SHOULD DO must tailor make your combat "style" YOU.

[This message has been edited by TerryhLee (edited 06-20-2004).]

#125884 - 06/22/04 09:40 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters

I dont often reply to posts but this one is great.
Firstly the style vs style thing.
"the style doesn't make the student the student makes the style" don't know who said it but its true. A grappler wont beat an Aikidoka because he is a grappler, the person will beat the person because of their skills. There are many misconceptions about Aikido and that is partly Aikido's fault as there are a few different schools, some of which don't focus on the Martial applications. I can assure you it works and in some occasions really hurts. In fact most of the time we are executing an arm or kneck break exactly the same as in other martial arts, but rather than destroy the limb/person we simply let the person go/fallover.
But Aikido is about people, the sword work is classed as a "conversation" you feel the person pushing, you respond, they respond etc....It is very cooperative at the start but the reason for that is the essence of Aikido. You do not want to be using your strength, if you feel someone resisting, pushing against you, you will register this as "wrong" and change technique to harmonise with their new direction. At higher levels the "opponent" does respond and you must adapt your technique.
But Aikido is about people, not having conflict. In the above situation you are worried that your friend wrestle's you to the ground why? becuase you think he will impress the chick? Use your Aikido...go with him, let him leg lock you, tap out get up and say "phew I nearly spilt my guiness" then meet the blonde, harmonise with her and lead her ......
Aikido is a very effective Martial art. It doesn't really involve ground fighting as we specialise in the range before that. Every stle has its strengths and weaknesses its up to you to find and understand them.

#125885 - 06/22/04 11:36 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Robaikido Offline

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
I had a mate who is a rugby player try running at me to tackle me, same as a bjj, or, it looks the same.

I had never defended like this before, so I reacted naturally

to tackle someone to the ground, you have to lead with a shoulder, or you'll get kicked in the head

when he dropped his shoulder, i stepped to that same side and pulled off the best kaiten age ive ever done, much to his distress :-)

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