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#125866 - 08/07/03 02:59 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is all bull started my the Gracie family to increase their revenues at the dojo. BJJ is better than another art? I don't think so. What makes an art better? An Aikidoka can beat a BJJ or the other way around it just depends. What makes an art effective is how well it works in the streets. They are both effective. Aikido has a long history in the war.

I hate these ignorant patriotic extremists who try to advertise with a lot of mouth about thier art. The Gracies should hire them as advertising executives. If they want them to work for them at all.

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#125867 - 08/07/03 02:09 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Shotokan, you need to either re-read your history books or check the validity of your sources. this is the second post where you are giving out wrong information. Aikido was never used in a war, it evolved from Daito Ryu which was used in the early Japaneese wars as hand to hand combat when one lost his sword. Aikido as it is, was not officially created till after World War II, AND war goes directly against Aiki principle. Aiki itself is harmonious energy and unless we all pull our energys together to bomb the hell out of someone, or redirect the bombs back at them, its not Aiki. Aiki is as much philosophy and spiritual in nature as physical. Someone is feeding you some bad information, or you need to do some serious research. Your posts are way off on all Aikido facets.|Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters|senseilou|senseilou|Thu Aug 7 13:24:00 2003|68.98.234.245|0|0|0|0 0023000037000022|0023000037000000|23|532|Lou's absolutely spot on, shotokan. Aikido doesn't have any direct history in war, it only has a borrowed one from the arts it was created from.

The issue of which martial art is better, more authentic or more true than any other is a miasma into which we have gone before and never results in anything positive being achieved. People have every bit as much right to train in BJJ as they do anything else, and if it is, as you say, all hyberbole people will soon realise it and stop training in it.

The truth is that martial arts in general can do without this internicine strife. We should perhaps concentrate our energies into learning to live alongside one another, accepting each others prejudices without rancour and just train as we ourselves choose.

In my experience, I can learn a lot from talking to people from other styles, even if I don't agree with some of the things they say or do. It is all about letting go of the complex that tells me I do the best art, and anything else is inferior. Every art has its place. (yes, even new ones [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG])

Budo

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#125868 - 10/26/03 04:31 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
TaewandoBabe Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 40
Guys if grappler use grappling to take the fight to the ground, can't you use grappling to keep it stand up with the same level of sucesses?

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#125869 - 10/26/03 06:49 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you understand grappling sufficiently, yes you can use your grappling skill to keep standing.

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#125870 - 11/01/03 06:57 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
For the "grappler" to grapple he has to take hold of you. Aikido teaches us effective ways to deal with people grabbing hold of us, in fact we often encourage them to do so so we can employ our aiki. It is in no way a "given" that the grappler will be able to grapple an aikidoka to the floor in the first place.

Budo

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#125871 - 11/02/03 06:15 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
and if he does?

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#125872 - 11/02/03 11:59 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
...if that is what he trains for then he has the advantage. But it is a big "if".

In my view mixing a little ground fighting with your aikido will not be enough to overcome the advantage that a grappler has on the floor. You have to train exclusively for ground fighting if you want to fight on the ground. Then you condede the advantage to the aikidoka when yyour both standing up. Aikido tries to negate the need to fight on the ground, rather than giving ways to do so.

Budo

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#125873 - 11/04/03 06:38 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
For the "grappler" to grapple he has to take hold of you. Aikido teaches us effective ways to deal with people grabbing hold of us, in fact we often encourage them to do so so we can employ our aiki. It is in no way a "given" that the grappler will be able to grapple an aikidoka to the floor in the first place.

Budo
[/QUOTE]


I would agree with this only if your training is against a grappler that is actively trying to "grapple" you. However, if one trains with another aikidoka in a static manner; wrist grab, lapel grab, double wrist grab etc..., then you might be surprised should you be grabbed differently.

Training should include grabs where your balance is broken initially and the uke tries to keep your balance and take your position...

For years we trained escaped from a bear hug where the uke grabbed you from behind and waited for you to "escape". Things changed when we investigated why someone might use a bearhug. We found that some people might "pop" you from behind to take your balance, then squeeze your solar plexus to taje your air and then dump you onto the ground...

Chris

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#125874 - 11/05/03 02:11 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I think this is old ground that has been done to death already.

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#125875 - 01/16/04 02:37 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Anonymous
Unregistered


I do Shotokan Karate-Do and Freestyle wrestling.

I am not an Aikido practioner but please allow me to answer this...
Does this make Aikido ineffective?
Here it is guys...

What does a boxer need to know to win against a boxer?
ANS: Boxing/Kickboxing etc

What does a wrestler/BJJ artist need to know to win against a wreslter? BJJ artist?
ANS: Wrestling/BJJ etc

What does a karateka need to know to win against a karateka?
ANS: Karate/Kung Fu etc

To win over another art/skilled fighter we need to know an art that specializes in the range that that art/skilled fighter fights in...Each art has a range it specializes in. To have a chance you need to know the art or another art that also specializes in that range.


Now in the NHB/UFC/Pride you need to know all of them to win because the guys down there are cross trained and you face fighters from all styles...

Does the fact that Aikidoka's have failed to come up with a defense for BJJ/Shootfighing style attacks means Aikido is ineffective?(mostly the charge and tackle takedowns)? The answer is no...

The sport techniques that grapplers use on tv are designed to win (they depend on rules to keep them safe)...and it so happens that once they take the fight on the ground they are in their specialized range...but the techniques used in Aikido were designed to keep the practioner safe and that is what is more important (especially because there aren't any NHB/Pride/UFC rules in effect to keep you safe in a real fight)

For example Aikidokas prefer to stay on their feet...this is safer than going to the ground because on you feet if the pressure is too much you can back up and make a run for it...whilst on the ground you are trapped either by your opponents grip or his weight...(something that isn't desirable in a non-submission fight i.e you can't submit)

That's right the insane thing about taking submission style fighting to the streets is that in an actual fight there is no submission. Therefore ground fighting should only be used as a last resort.

(a good example is the BJJ gaurd where the BJJ practioner is taught to just lay there and avoid the pounding until the pounder gets tired or leaves an opening for a finish/and if he can't get out he will simply submit...this is a dangerous concept to take to the streets because when your attacker gets into the mount and starts pounding you he won't stop when you tap out or start crying for mommy.)

[On the ground your movements can easily become restricted if you end up getting mounted or grabbed. It's as simple as that. To get out of the mount will require great stamina, strenght, damage and (time...something there won't be alot of especially if you attacker decides to yeild a hidden knife/other weapon)]

Which is why you should try to stay on your feet, where you can use them in case you need to run (i.e if the pressure should become too much [remain mobile, don't imobilize yourself unnecessarily])...even the BJJ guys won't fight on the streets like that...on the streets it's always about surviving the encounter while receiving as little damage as possible from the attacker...(something Aikido specializes in [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG])

Will you meet professional wrestlers/BJJ/Shootfighting guys on the street? No! Do you need to develop counters against the charge and tackle takedowns when most fights begin at conversational range? No!!! You only need to know BJJ/Shootwrestling if you are fighting an expert wreslter/grappler...If the fight goes to the ground on the streets you only need the same concepts you use when you do stand up grappling (to have a chance) because you won't be fighting a Gracie or any of those expert grapplers or wreslters you see on pay per veiw.

NB:
However, don't overlook cross training in or at least sampling BJJ/Shootwrestling/wrestling etc They will increase your chances if the fight should go to the ground simply because that's the range that these arts specialize in.

p.s

My regards to all

In sport martial arts [NHB/UFC/Pride/K-1/boxing ring/kickboxing ring/Karate tournament] use the rules to stay safe...but on the streets use your Aikido and common sense.

Stay safe [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

-Shotokan

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 01-17-2004).]

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