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#125856 - 05/06/03 04:01 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Sorry Lou, once again I didn't make myself as clear as I should have. I don't know enough about karate training to make any presumption about it, I was just trying to make the point that every art has a certain amount of training that is pre-arranged. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't karate have training wherein both the attack and the defence are pre-determined, like a two person kata almost?

I'm just trying to impress upon people that there is more depth to aikido training that many seem to think. A lot of practitioners from other styles are real quick to critize aiki for it's co-operative nature, yet seemingly fail to recognize anything similar in their own art. I think people need to understand what aikido is before they try to discredit it. The techniques used to train aikido are not so differenet from the techniques used to train karate, or many other arts. Basics, pre-arranged fighting and free fighting. People seem to get stuck on stage two when they think of aiki training. They are wrong.

I know how most karate folk are very sensitive about critiscism of their art, and will think I'm trying to undermine it. I'm not, but nevertheless pre-arranged sparring is a form of co-operative training.

Budo

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#125857 - 05/06/03 03:02 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Cato I agree, pre-arranged technique is indeed co-operative. I think that it is essential to have this also. My point is not a better or worse scenario, but that Karateka are not concerned with relationship between uke and nage. Uke is there to fight and not help his partner, which I agree is not always the best scenario. The bottom line here is this, no matter all the rhetoric about samenesses and all, there is a definite different mind set in Karate then in the Aiki arts, not good, bad or indifferent, but indeed different. The Aiki arts offer a deeper meaning into principles and concepts and its relation to nature, than the Karate Arts. There is the criticism that the Aiki Arts have too much co-operative attacks. One one hand this is true as most Aiki-doka don't take it to the next level and always train in a co-operative mood. The criticism is unjust as you can learn much from co-operative training. Its all a question of mind set, and really, I don't think things will change until each other train in the others arts. It would be an eye opening experience for both, Aikidoka and Karateka to change places for a day. I work Aiki principle in my striking art, no question, I see the value of Aiki training, but I also know they tend to just go through the motions and not train as best they could

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#125858 - 05/27/03 02:00 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Anonymous
Unregistered


advice to aikido stylist regarding brazilian jujitsu or any jusjitsu stylist-never give them your back.
If they get behind you, you will be chocked out. If they go for the chocke,drop your chin and turn towards the elbow and shoulder of their arm.

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#125859 - 05/28/03 01:57 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Sorry to disagree, but the 'misconception' of tucking your chin will not avoid a choke by someone who is trained to choke. We pull the hair back before we choke anyway, to expose the throat. I have worked chokes on many people who thought tucking the chin would stop the choke just to be surprised how easy it is to counter this. Number 1 when they tuck the chin, pull their head to expose the neck. You can also finger the eyes and pull their head back to choke. One of my favorite tricks is to use my forearm blade and roll it on the chin they are tucking, which the move and allow the choke. Another thing to do is to cover their mouth with your hand, they grab your hand and you choke with the other arm. We practice resisting chokes all the time and working chokes when someone tries to counter. If you get in the choke position, tucking your chin may get you a second, but if someone knows how to apply chokes its a mild inconvience.

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#125860 - 05/28/03 02:21 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Anonymous
Unregistered


you can also miss piggy them-dig finger into area where nose meets upper lip.
if tucking chin gives you extra second-that's one more than you had before. point is tuck chin-get out of choke as fast as possible.

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#125861 - 05/28/03 07:43 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
As I see it, tucking your chin in to aviod a particular shime waza merely gives your attacker with the opportunity to perform a kubi kansetsu waza instead. Most aikidoka wouldn't force the technique once the opening for it has passed and will simply move on to any technique that presents itself. We must be careful not to move from the frying pan into the fire when countering aiki techniques.

Budo

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#125862 - 06/08/03 03:26 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
dawgzog Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 36
You are smart cato. I know a guy who has his pic taken with Royce Gracie. He is unstopable in brazilian Jujutsu. His name is Glen hamby. He learned from the Gracie's and is my teacher. I would take jujutsu over any karate except for maybe jeetkundo.

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#125863 - 06/09/03 03:32 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dawgzog:
You are smart cato. I know a guy who has his pic taken with Royce Gracie. He is unstopable in brazilian Jujutsu. His name is Glen hamby. He learned from the Gracie's and is my teacher. I would take jujutsu over any karate except for maybe jeetkundo.[/QUOTE]

Well dawg, if your last sentence implies you would take grappling over striking, that is your preference. But please realize that jeet kune do is not karate and jujutsu is not the only grappling art. Also, most people have this false misconception that grappling is better than striking simply b/c Royce Gracie is a good fighter and did well in the first UFC's. If that is why you believe grappling is superior, think of this: Pride is another competition almost exactly like UFC and their heavyweight champ, Nogeira (who is an amazing BJJ grappler), was defeated by a russian who used nothing but strikes. That is just one example. My point is that grappling is not superior to striking, just as striking is not superior to grappling.

AND JEET KUNE DO IS NOT KARATE.

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#125864 - 06/10/03 01:49 AM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Can't we all just get along? Obviously not I just had a seminar and guess what, every body categorized or labeled themselves as a striker or a grappler. What has happened to the idea of being 'well rounded'. Why can't one strike and grapple. What the Gracies did back when was make the martial community aware of ground fighting. If you watch now, a metamorphisis has taken place. Stikers, Karate-ka are now learning BJJ and other ground arts, and grapplers are learning effective striking. Someone mentioned Pride, and if you watch pride you will see grapplers get beat, but also strikers lose to an arm bar. I study Sambo, and suppliment it with my Karate and my Jujutsu. I use to apologize for my ecclectic training, but not anymore, the best fighter is one who is well rounded and can strike lock and grapple. Its a shame to label oneself, and leave out valuable information that may assist in your training. I am currently working on grounding and pounding, a striking art for the ground, so to counter grappling, or grapple to counter striking. either way, its not one vs the other, its the accumilation of knowledge

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#125865 - 06/10/03 02:36 PM Re: Aikido and Shoot Fighters
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
You are of course quite right, Lou. If people want eclectic training that is their perogative, and there is nothing wrong with that. If it is important to be a well rounded fighter then cross training would appear to be a must.

As you know, I don't cross train because I like to think that by not doing so I preserve the authenticity and integrity of my art. I feel it gives me all I need to be able to better defend myself, and I also feel I get more from my training than just a way to kick ass. And that is, I think, where MA are seriously losing the plot these days.

MA's have become competitive in a destructive way, one that causes practitioners to look down on any other art they encounter, citing a lack of ground fighting or of an ability to strike "properly" in people such as me, who only train in one way.

So paradoxically I think it is the cross training that is undermining MA's in general. Without doubt cross training is designed to make better fighters, but not necessarily better artists. Much of the traditional value of MA training has been lost in the never ending pursuit of the one true ultimate street effective art that can be learnt in two years.

Budo

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