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#125786 - 04/17/03 06:30 AM it any use?
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I have read a number of articles that state that karate style blocks just don't work, and aiki style re-directions are too difficult to perform in a pressure situation. What does everyone think of the value of blocking/re-directing?

#125787 - 04/17/03 08:37 AM Re: it any use?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Sorry, I can't be bothered to construct and argument so I will just say what I think:

I don't think Karate blocks work and I believe aiki re-directions are too difficult to perform in a pressure situation.

#125788 - 04/17/03 10:48 AM Re: it any use?

Karate blocks can be effective if properly executed. Wado teaches a lot of body movement and avoidance techniques as well as static blocking which I think are very effective. I know I would probably break my own arm if I blocked a full force punch from a large man rather than moving out of the way, but even that is better than being knocked out and having my head kicked in, and sometimes there is no room to move much.
I do not know enough about aikido to comment on the redirection in that art, but if it is similar to the redirection jujitsu that I have seen I think can be effective, but again, only if correctly executed.

#125789 - 04/17/03 11:00 AM Re: it any use?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
My karate knowledge is from a Shotokan perspective, but the main problem is not so much the block, but the liniar movement when blocking.

I found that they work excellently against other karate-ka,

Go a few rounds with a boxer that has been training as long as you have, just to see how effective your blocking is.

When you realise that many, many punches can be thrown in a second, being able to execute blocking techniques properly with an effective use of the hip etc. is near impossible in this type of situation.

Also, watch what happens when you pull your fist back to your hip when performing a punch, well you won't, you will be on the floor.

I'm such a pesimist, sorry.

#125790 - 04/17/03 11:11 AM Re: it any use?

UKFF, I would not pull my fist back to my hip either sparring in the dojo or in a street situation, I would keep them up to protect myself. I can not comment on Shotokan blocks, but as I said, Wado teaches more evasion, often striking simultaneously to moving. I have found it quite effective.
I have sparred with kick boxers a few times and did not come off too badly.
No need to appologise for the pessimism, I am sure you will have a sunnier disposition once you have finished your disertation [IMG][/IMG]

#125791 - 04/17/03 02:30 PM Re: it any use?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
First of all blocks can be other things as well. Number 2 they do work, and as someone said, its the linear motion that is more of the problem. Most people see a block as a fist and forearm block, but remember there are shuto blocks
heel palm blocks
ox jaw blocks
hooking block(kage uke) Kage uke is used in many Jujutsu styles once the blow is paried. Forearm blocks I use alot to set up elbow techniques. We do not block for the most part but pari/check, however at times we do use shuto blocks especially to the arms before joint locking it.
But.....and this is where I will probably take a beating, kotegaeshi, nikkyo, can all be applied as blocks. If someone grabs and punches, lock the grabbing arm with nikkyo and apply it to his opposite hip, which prevents uke from throwing a second punch. That's essentially a block. You can use kotegaeshi the same way, and tie up the second punch with kotegaeshi, so that is a block to. Also, look at the movement of an outside block and kotegaeshi and its the exact same movement. So yes blocks do work, maybe not in the sense of how you learn it to begin with, too slow, too much opening.As stated before you always strike block etc, from where your hands are, not cocking back or to your hips. So blocks evolve as you evolve, but they do work.

#125792 - 04/17/03 07:21 PM Re: it any use?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
The "karate blocks" you speak of are not done properly unless there is some kind of redirection - parry with the guarding hand, strike and trap with the "blocking" hand.

There are many other blocks than the four or five taught to beginners. Most applications are not blocks however.

#125793 - 04/18/03 02:24 AM Re: it any use?
raccoon Offline

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
The "karate blocks" you speak of are not done properly unless there is some kind of redirection[/QUOTE]

Well said Joe.

BTW, Cato, the articles you talked about, are they online? If so, can you give us the link?

#125794 - 04/18/03 10:05 AM Re: it any use?
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
That's a bit of a big assumption you're making there, Joe. To assume the person writing the article did not how to properly perform a karate block is a little presumptuous, especially as this particular article was written by a Dan graded karateka.

The essence of the argument goes along the lines of it takes too long to block a full force punch. By the time you react the punch as almost there, and the block is performed when the punching arm has reached maximum power. It is therefore inefficient to block/deflect/redirect using karate style blocks. That is why they don't work, not because the person blocking lacks skill in performing them.

Aiki style "blocks" (for want of a better word) are performed either at the beginning or, more usually, at the end of the swing of the punch, when power has either yet to be developed fully, or has been largely expended. That is why, according to the articles, they are too difficult to perform against a full force punch.

raccoon, I have no idea whether these articles are on line. I read them in old issues of martial arts magazines.


#125795 - 04/19/03 01:29 AM Re: it any use?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Cato 's a karate-ka..........see after all this time he's been a closet Karate-ka. He knows more about blocking than some of my students. I hereby give you an honorary Black Belt in Aiki-Karate Jutsu. Honorary you understand, or for that matter, I'll give you your own style, since I know you really want one, how about, AKJJ Martial Arts Concepts.Aikido,Karate,double "J" Jujutsu and Judo. Catchy letters in the style and I added concepts too, you are now set with your own style. Now that you've come out, we can start adding Karate questions to this thread.

Well that amused me for a minute, however in regard to your last post, I say..............right on, I think your explaination is right on, but let me add one final piece. Joe is right, there should always be a redirection prior to the block. So if that is the case why do you need the block? So this is why I contend blocks aren't really blocks. We use pari's exclusively, as blocks are too slow and the redirection has all ready taken place. If you add tai sabaki to this, sometimes you don't need to even touch the attack.

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