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#125750 - 04/15/03 08:42 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Cato>

Sure, I will buy what you said. I am only saying it's better to focus on a few techniques that you chose, than to spread your attentions over everything your sensei teaches.

And about remembering a whole bunch of different techniques... I think it's important to know what techniques are being used "out there", in case you are on the receiving end you won't be too surprised, and hopefully you've thought about how to get out of it. Besides, it gives you more choices. I certainly don't want to be stuck on 6 random techniques just because I don't know other techniques exist. If I choose to drill on 6 techniques, I like to think I picked those out of many out there.

And to learn by examples - I think there are principles in physical fights. Now, your teacher can tell you the principles, "pull when pushed, push when pulled...", or you can learn it by seeing a variety of techniques based on that principles. Of course, this extends to other principles, not just the judo ones. And I can only speculate you will have a much better understanding of the principles if you learn so by practicing techniques that employ those principles, than to have someone tell you.

About ground fight... no, I seldom see people lying besides each other, not moving, on the ground, you silly. But I still see very little movement/ momentum. Especially when a bigger person is on top, pinning the smaller guy down... I tried to get out of those situations with wrist locks/ pain compliance, such as kotegaeshi and sankyo... but when his arm is as thick as a small tree... well, let's say it's a little challenging to apply.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-15-2003).]

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#125751 - 04/15/03 09:09 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Jab. Cross. Turning kick. Uppercut. Rising knee. Elbow.

I couldn't even include shin blocks or circular knees. Or hook punches.

Now either there are four basic strikes, and everything else is a variation, and all locking essentially can be broken down into three parts, simply mixed up in different ways, and shin blocking and jamming and tripping are part of movement. That's six techniques. (Punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing, movement and redirecting energy/grabbing and their variations)

Or you are missing out on the "heavenly glory" of bicep bumps, finger pokes, rising punches, trapping, front kicks to anatomically weak parts of the body, seiziing muscle (like the pectoralis), palm heels and chokes and throws.

The more the better. It's just up to you to train for it.

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#125752 - 04/16/03 02:22 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Doesn't it make sense that when under pressure I should revert to these, rather than try to work in a technique I'm not so comfortable with?

Cato.........I think I mentioned this to you sometime back and your response was something to the effect of why throw things out, if you can't use them. I think you just solved that one huh. Anyway, I agree totally, however if I am efficent at 5 things, I would rather have 20 to choose from originally than 10. Having said that, my pride and joy, what I love most in seeing variations on a theme. I must have collected 20 different Nikkyo's from Hawaiian versions, to Indonesian version back to Okinawan. Of all the techniques I have, I try, but haven't quite succeeed just yet to have a variation of the every technique.
In a confrontation your technique may not work for several reasons, sloppy technique, attackers resistance, or attackers counter or all of the above and more. we have a 3 step process for this.

1. continue the technique you are trying to do, either by repositioning their body or repositioning yours. So in the case of a punch to the face that is blocked, we will trap the blocking hand and continue the strike, same as with a lock, they resist, I may groing kick them to reposition them and continue the lock
2. modify or vary the technique. try a different version of the same thing. In the case of a punch that didn't work, I may roll the punch into a backfist(Karateka-see Passa Dai)In locking you can just attack the joint from a different angle or vary it
3. change the technique-in the case of the punch being blocked, grab the block and lock it out. In the case of a lock, say nikkyo, go into kotegaeshi.

So when we study, we always practice reverses, so you know how to reverse a lock and also, now you know how one can reverse the lock, you modify how you do it. example for Nikkyo, I never let anyone move in to take the pressure off the wrist, for Sankyo I never let them back out. we also study variations, so you can "change on the fly" and henka waza, or multiple locking to stay ahead of our attacker, while they are resisting the first one , we are already working on the 3rd lock. So in this process, the more you know the better. But, but ,but, its not necessary to do this, 5-6 techniques may do one real well if they are really good with them

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#125753 - 04/16/03 04:33 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
raccoon, only a madman (or woman [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]) would try to kote gaeshi their way out of being strangled on the floor. You can't just pick any old technique and apply it. However, maybe a choking technique would be appropriate, or perhaps ude gatame? Does your aiki include atemi waza?

I must confess to a histoy of training in ju jutsu and some judo, so perhaps I'm more comfortable at fighting on the gropund than I should be, but I do see opportunities to apply aiki techniques whilst fighting on the ground.

It is also true to say there will be times when you are so well beaten that nothing works. That is life I'm afraid. Unless you happen to be the best fighter in the world all the time, there will be people who can, and will, beat you.

It would appear from your first paragraph that we agree? Of course a knowledge of some other techniques is good, but is it necessary to practice them as often as you do you favoured ones for your self defence?

Joe, I personally don't use striking as a primary defence. It is a means to an end for me, nothing more. I prefer grappling techniques because I find them versatile and more effective. Take a technique like tai otoshi ("body drop" for those non grapplers amongst us), this throw can be done to the front or the rear, standing or kneeling. It is very simple to apply quickly and can be foced through if resisted - dropping from standing to kneeling adds considerable power - so why on earth would I want to learn 6 throws when this one alone can do the job in a variety of circumstances.

Of course it can't be applied in every situation, no technique can. Which is why you have to give a little thought to the half dozen or so techniques you chose to practice for self defence. I think it is different to learning strikes because the pricnciple of the throw remains the same whatever the circumstances you use it in.

Lou, absolutely. I like the example of 20 nikkyo applications. Doesn't that just give you such a wide range of situations in which you can apply your nikkyo.

I agree that a wide ranging syllabus is good for practice purposes, but I'm not so sure it is so good for self defence.

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#125754 - 04/17/03 01:13 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Agreed!!!!

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#125755 - 04/17/03 01:20 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Good last post, short and sweet. But you didn't really think thats all I would say did you? My Sensei once told me that all techniques are not for just self-defense, but train your body how to move, or condition your body in some way. Sacrafice throws were the example he used. Practicing them on mats is practice, but the feeling of reversing in mid air is what the lesson is about. So I believe there are street techniques and dojo techniques. In the land of rock front yards and cactus, I wouldn't do any sacrifce throwing out here. But once your body learns how to move, you can counter a sweep or a Koshinage while in the air. So some of my curriculum is done for curriculum, Sensei shared it with me and I pass it on, other is definite, rock'em-lock'em-leave'em. Dojo art vs. street art.

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#125756 - 04/17/03 03:19 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
Jab. Cross. Turning kick. Uppercut. Rising knee. Elbow.

I couldn't even include shin blocks or circular knees. Or hook punches.

Now either there are four basic strikes, and everything else is a variation, and all locking essentially can be broken down into three parts, simply mixed up in different ways, and shin blocking and jamming and tripping are part of movement. That's six techniques. (Punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing, movement and redirecting energy/grabbing and their variations)

Or you are missing out on the "heavenly glory" of bicep bumps, finger pokes, rising punches, trapping, front kicks to anatomically weak parts of the body, seiziing muscle (like the pectoralis), palm heels and chokes and throws.

The more the better. It's just up to you to train for it.
[/QUOTE]

I think your missing the point.

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#125757 - 06/27/03 08:03 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I'd like resurrect this one for mikey and kempo to add their thoughts, and to ask if anyone has any practical experience of using aiki for real, either successfully or otherwise.

Budo

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#125758 - 06/27/03 05:43 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
its always good to have more options. on the five or six techniqe thing...yes 5 or 6 agains this attack, 5 or6 against that attack. why have 50 ways to defend againt the same technique? boil it down to 5 or 6 per type of attack that work. but continue to look for more options in the dojo. "running water never goes stale" all things should grow and evolve
ed parker said "id rather have ten techniques that i can fight with, than a hundred techniques that fight me"
i have actually used kotegaeshi on the ground effectively as an escape/turnover, on the other hand i have never seen anyone get thrown into the air, do a complete flip and land on the ground in a heap, from simply getting their wrist twisted [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#125759 - 06/27/03 05:49 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i like wadowomans posts, i am 6'4 275 lbs...a person 5'6 and 120 lbs simply cant do some of the things i can do, and i cant do many of the things he/she can do. you have to adapt to you body type...height, weight, flexibility, agility etc. work on your strengths because they are your strengths, but also improve upon your weaker points as well.
the system of kenpo taught by chuck sullivan (ed parkers oldest and highest ranked student) and vic leroux has only 50 some basic techniques in the system to shodan. however you can adapt those few techniques in a thousand different ways for a thousand different situations. after all what are advanced techniques...they are but extensions and adaptations of the basic "principles"
i heard it put like this....all advanced techniques are...is wicked good basics!!

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