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#125760 - 06/27/03 06:05 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
kempo_jujitsu Offline

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
this is also where you can get into the "sanctity of our style" thing...our curriculum. to me there is no such thing as a really truly pure art. and i have never claimed to be a traditional martial artist or an eclectic martial artist. i am a martial artist, or at least i try to be. too many folks concentrate on the end...and not the journey.
i have never met a single sensei who teaches just the basic curriculum of their style, and if i did id probabaly leave.
to me a curriculum is the base, a guideline to work from, within, expand on, and grow from, a set of basic "principles" and philosophy to guide you.. not etched in stone that this is the only thing you can do against this punch or that kick. curriculum is used as a teaching guide and testing guide for rank so students have a sense of achievement, but that by no means is the be all end all of what this or that particular style is or has to offer. curriculum is a set of ideas or examples of ways to use the principles and philosophy of our style of martial arts. which in most cases are pretty simelar in all arts at their core, regardless of what this goju practioner or this wing chun practioner says for instance.
i have said before i think that one of the biggest lessons you can learn about martial arts is that they all have way more simelarities than differences.
i have heard it said that this is one characteristic of a true master, he/she has learned things that are universal and true of all martial arts, no matter what it is. ill shut up now lol

#125761 - 06/27/03 06:08 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
kempo_jujitsu Offline

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
one of the greatest things my sensei ever told me...SHUT UP AND TRAIN. lol

#125762 - 07/01/03 09:12 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
One of the things my current sensei emphasizes is conepts over techniques. That said, we still have tons of them. We just spend a lot of time noting what they all have in common.

I think we train in so many techniques because each one offers us a slightly different view of the concepts behind them.

From a self-defense standpoint, it definitely makes sense for each martial artist to select a small group of "favorite techniques". But since there are so many variations in body type and internal wiring for people, this group of techniques will vary from student to student.

I don't think it is really possible to reduce the art to a few techniques, because not everyone will be a good match for the ones you pick.

It is the responsibility of each practitioner to find the techniques they resonate with, and then to use what they learn from that to improve in the areas where there are not as naturally adept.

I think dojo time is for studying as broad a range of techniques as practically possible. Favorite techniques can be practiced on your own time, and they will naturally keep coming up in your randori practice.

#125763 - 07/01/03 10:26 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
So, how many of us actually make a concious effort to prepare our techniques for "real" life, and what criterion should we apply to our choices?


#125764 - 07/01/03 01:19 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Our class tries to keep a "real world" focus.

In all of our techniques, after we get comfortable with the basic mechanics of the technique, we experiment with different levels of resistance from uke to see what changes. This progresses to resisting full strength, and also to throwing counter techniques.

This is always interesting.

I also like to try my personal set of favorite techniques on people who have no formal martial arts training. I don't go out and get in fights, but I have some friends who don't mind wrestling sometimes.

It is always interesting to see how people's reactions differ from what you see in class. Most of us who have been training for a while are programmed to respond to certain techniques in certain ways, but an untrained person usually has a reaction that is completely different. You may be used to "allowing" someone to apply nikajo, but a person on the street will fight it with everything he has.

We eventually learn to relax our wrists to protect against injury. This has the side effect of making it relatively easy to perform joint locks. An untrained person will typically stiffen all the muscles in his arm when you attempt to lock the joint, even if it means sustaining damage once the lock is applied.

I remember reading about an aikido sensei (Saotome sensei, I believe, maybe Saito) who challenged a tai-chi master. The sensei applied kote gaeshi so hard he felt the bones in the arm break, but the tai-chi master did not fall or compromise his stance. He took the pain and then countered. It can be quite a surprise to practice with someone who doesn't do ukemi the way we are used to, but someone on the street is not going to leap in the air and do a nice roll for you. They are more likely to inelegantly crash face first. If you are not expecting this, it can really throw a wrench in your follow-up technique plans.

In our class, we skip the high pretty falls unless they are unavoidable, and try to react more like an untrained person might when it can be done safely. I think it helps, but who can really say.

Criteria for picking favorites:

Easier for me to do than my other techniques

Close to the same proficiency left or right handed

Safe body positioning, good exit strategy if it fails

Less strength dependent than other techniques

Can be "muscled through" against an uke who resists if I fail to completely break his balance

Less dependent on certain size relationships between tori and uke

I am very interested in hearing everyone else's take on this...

#125765 - 07/02/03 02:23 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
Joe Jutsu Offline

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I read a long account of what I believe you were refering too, 504mikey. It was actually Chiba sensei, and according to the first hand account that I read, the two were standing there for a bit, Chiba reached out and tried to force a kotegaeishi, there was a snapping in the wrist as the tai chi master through Chiba across the room. Then their students got in the middle to break it up. Hope this helps to clarify something a bit.


#125766 - 07/03/03 11:06 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I find this an interesting incident, but I feel that I'm missing some important point in it somewhere. Is there one?


#125767 - 07/03/03 01:36 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Cato said:

"I find this an interesting incident, but I feel that I'm missing some important point in it somewhere. Is there one?"

I offered it as an example of how the ukemi we employ to avoid injury in the dojo can give us a distorted picture of how a person will react if we use aiki techniques in the street.

In the dojo, when you apply kote gaeshi, I have seen many uke jump over their own arm, roll in the air, and take a back fall to avoid the stress on the wrist. Good ukemi, IMO, and it looks nice.

Most people in the street will not do this, even if it means taking a lot of damage to the wrist they will try to keep their feet.

In this example, the tai chi practitioner actually endured having his bones broken without compromising his posture.

What I was driving at in all of this is that in the dojo we develop favorite "chains" of techniques, where one leads to another until a proper hold is established with uke immobilized in some way. We become used to this flow.

On the street, the chain of techniques can easily be broken because the attacker does not do ukemi in any way we are familiar with.

I remember catching a lot of grief in aikido dojos for not holding on tight enough, or not running fast enough in a circle when someone was "leading" me. Who is supposed to be blending with whom, here? I have had some pretty ridiculous demands placed on me as uke to make someone's concept of aiki work for them. I think if, as tori, you find yourself making adjustments to uke's movement other than those required for his safety then you may have identified an area in your technique which needs some evaluation.

I think ukemi is one of the reasons people who see aikido demonstrations often find them hard to swallow-- those high, jumping falls give the appearance that uke is helping the technique, rather than jumping for his own protection.

#125768 - 07/31/03 02:06 PM Re: Why all these techniques?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UKfightfreak:
Well boxing (although not a martial art) has refined itself variations on around 4 techniques(jab, cross, hook, uppercut).

I think this is important as although you only have a few techniques, the angles, oppotunity and footwork turns these into millions of possibilities for just 4 techniques.

Have 40 techniques there is no way you can develop the same level for each of these techniques as you could for just 4.

Cato I think you are right, to be effective for defense you do only need 5 or 6 techniques.

This is why I get confused about many posters on this board, hammering reality as though its the only thing about Martial Arts and then training in serveral systems with tons of techniques in each system, where it would probably be better to practice around 5 or 6 techniques, as you suggest for reality.

I think wadowoman is right about selecting techniques to perfect, for example as a Karate-ka I used fairly basic techniques in sparring even when I passed black belt grades. Now - Kick boxing I still use a limited number of techniques but I find it fun to do everything else.

I know I am going on a little but I have never had to throw a punch on the street and never plan to. So get your pre-emtive strike to finish the fight before it starts and as for the rest of the Art - have fun!!

Um boxing is a martial art. Martial Art means war like arm, such as firearm fighting, knife fighting, punching, kicking, wrestling, um sword fighting etc. Lol anyway I think by now you get the idea. Hope I didn't go too far to prove a simple point which you probably don't even care about. Check the dictionary man.

#125769 - 07/31/03 02:10 PM Re: Why all these techniques?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
I notice whilst everyone was agreeing, you failed to mention

escapes from holds

escapes from chokes

escapes from pins

Pre emptively striking, jabbing, crossing hooking and uppercutting nor will jumping spinning kicks work here.

Six or so techniques to be effective?

Against who?

Not all of the techniques mentioned above are Aikido techniques. I'm a shotokan practioner and let me tell you don't judge Aikido by the way it looks soft. It's very effective, it has the longest wartime history than any other martial art. You don't need not fancy spin kick and excessively powerful moves to control and opponent or win a fight. The art of throwing alone can injure or even kill a person. (Depending on how hard they land)

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