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#125740 - 04/14/03 10:13 AM Why all these techniques?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Given that most martial artists would agree that you only need 5 or 6 techniques to be able to defend yourself effectively, why does aikido, or any other martial art, have such a large repetoire?

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#125741 - 04/14/03 10:57 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think it is becuse different techniques work better for different people. For example, most of my male training partners can hold both of my wrists in one hand, whilst I need both of my hands to hold one of their wrists.
Height also makes a difference, If you are very tall you have more leverage in cerain techniques than someone shorter.
I know very little about aikido, but I would imagine the same applies in this art as others (I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong).
The only way to find what works best for you is to try it all. Then perfect your half a dozen preffered techniques.
Sharon

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#125742 - 04/14/03 11:56 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Well boxing (although not a martial art) has refined itself variations on around 4 techniques(jab, cross, hook, uppercut).

I think this is important as although you only have a few techniques, the angles, oppotunity and footwork turns these into millions of possibilities for just 4 techniques.

Have 40 techniques there is no way you can develop the same level for each of these techniques as you could for just 4.

Cato I think you are right, to be effective for defense you do only need 5 or 6 techniques.

This is why I get confused about many posters on this board, hammering reality as though its the only thing about Martial Arts and then training in serveral systems with tons of techniques in each system, where it would probably be better to practice around 5 or 6 techniques, as you suggest for reality.

I think wadowoman is right about selecting techniques to perfect, for example as a Karate-ka I used fairly basic techniques in sparring even when I passed black belt grades. Now - Kick boxing I still use a limited number of techniques but I find it fun to do everything else.

I know I am going on a little but I have never had to throw a punch on the street and never plan to. So get your pre-emtive strike to finish the fight before it starts and as for the rest of the Art - have fun!!

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#125743 - 04/14/03 07:38 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I notice whilst everyone was agreeing, you failed to mention

escapes from holds

escapes from chokes

escapes from pins

Pre emptively striking, jabbing, crossing hooking and uppercutting nor will jumping spinning kicks work here.

Six or so techniques to be effective?

Against who?

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#125744 - 04/15/03 12:30 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I really like what "Joe" has said. I am one of those who, start the booing, and the jeers, that believes more is better. Look at some of the things that "Joe " points out, how many times are those done in the Aikido dojo? Try to apply any lock on a jab, even more so any boxing combination. the hands don't stay there. I know Aikido was not designed to go against other karate styles, however a Kempo striker with rapid fire strikes would give an Aiki person fits. I know it seems I am always on the case of Aikido, but the problem is the way its practiced. It can be made to work, but it can't be done like its practiced in the dojo.
Once again not every technique is going to work on everyone, and it may happen during the encounter. In Aiki there is a relationship between uke and nage, and they exchange information. this relationship does not exist elsewhere. while this is good for a learning framework, its not in terms of seeing what really works. In a true fight, the person is not going to stand there and let you lock him or co-operate, it must work. Sometimes, you need someone to counter your initial move or resist it. You can then work on counters, which lead to variations of technique or chain techniques(henka waza) which we call multiple locking, nikkyo to sankyo to yubi dori to a throw, always one step ahead of your attacker. If you work other avenues of attack, counters, chokes and pins, you may find that 6 or 7 techniques may not be enough

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#125745 - 04/15/03 03:43 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
I notice whilst everyone was agreeing, you failed to mention

escapes from holds

escapes from chokes

escapes from pins

Pre emptively striking, jabbing, crossing hooking and uppercutting nor will jumping spinning kicks work here.

Six or so techniques to be effective?

Against who?
[/QUOTE]

There are many (can't be bothered to reference, sorry) people that believe that ground fighting should be left in gym,
So assuming:
A: I'm am never going to be in a street fight
B: If I am proved wrong, I am going nowhere near the floor
and C: How many attackers actually know any real fighting techniques?

So against who?, the average thug on the street is who, not a Martial Arts expert who has been training in BJJ for 10 years.

And before anyone shouts - 95% of street fights end up on the floor, they do, normally with one person being knocked to the floor by being punched. Very few end up in the wrestling matches often envisioned.

So... I am not saying don't train in ground fighting, I do know basic ground fighting (enough to get out of a hold of an average thug anyway).

But I just don't believe training 24/7/356 for something which won't happen is really not worth it. Especially while your in the mount position having a wonderful time punching a guy into the floor and suddenly you get a knife in the back of one of his friends.

And please, spinning kicks? I wouldn't even use them in a full contact ring, let alone the street!

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#125746 - 04/15/03 03:54 AM Re: Why all these techniques?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I did not say I agreed that half a dozen techniques would be enough, I just gave an answer to the question of why one who thinks six is enough should bother to learn so many.
I have not been training long enough to judge how many we need and definitely have not "perfected" any where near six yet.
As Ukff and Sensei Lou have pointed out, another reason for learning so many is that there are more than six self defence scenarios.
Cato, I know you have a vast experience, streetwise, which six would you reccomend perfecting and why? (laymans terms please, my aikido knowledge is VERY limited)
Sharon

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#125747 - 04/15/03 05:23 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Sharon, there are plenty of people who would say my aikido knowledge is also very limited, or at least very confused (raccoon?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ). I wouldn't necessarily disagree with them either [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

First I would make the point that knowing six techniques doesn't limit you to only six defences. Aikido is taught in such a way that any technique can be applied in a lot of different situations, thus a defence from a punch can also be applied to a grab, a strangle, on the floor and so forth. There is no need to learn ten defences to ten attacks because one defence can be applied to all.

I also have to confess to being more aiki jutsu than aikido, it helps to cover my lack of technique [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

As for specific techniques I would say that the over riding criterion has to be that they are straight forward, uncomplicated and powerfull techniques that you can apply quickly and force through if necessary. I don't particularly want to give a list of specific techniques because that would only be relevant to me. Everyone has their own favourites. I would recommend that everyone has at least one throw to the front and one to the rear in their armoury, and for when the going gets really serious I think shime waza (strangles/chokes) are a good option to stop a determined attacker.

I don't favour relying on punches to stop an attack, but that is purely a personal preference. I know some people are excellent punches and kickers, it's just that I'm not.

Budo

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#125748 - 04/15/03 07:04 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Sharon, there are plenty of people who would say my aikido knowledge is also very limited, or at least very confused (raccoon?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ).[/QUOTE]

You've got my vote mate, it's harzadous to talk to Cato as a 5th kyu!!!

Obviously we are relocating the butterfly collectors here. (I wonder who dislocated them in the first place, such violent acts...)

I still think you should get your hands into as many techniques as you can manage. Knowledge is power. That said, there is explicit sequencial knowledge/ memory, and there is muscle memory... I think it's probably more important to work 6 techniques into your muscle memory until you HAVE IT. What Cato says about variation in those basic 6 techniques is valid only when you OWN them. Just because you've seen it, aware of it's existance, can repeat it with some ease, doesn't mean you've mastered it enough to understand how to vary it. I will seriously doubt anyone who claims to own that many techniques. In fact, I will be skeptical about anyone who "owns" 6 techniques.

-raccoon

P.S. Now I am very curious, Cato. How do you apply Aikido from the ground? I could never get it to work without the momentum and in dynamic motions. I even have troubles starting the techniques from static while standing!


[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-15-2003).]

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#125749 - 04/15/03 08:24 PM Re: Why all these techniques?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Owning techniques? What does that mean then? If it's one of those you perform it with no thought things then I don't own any technique, and probably never will, and don't see the need to.

Similarly, I think the idea that everyone turns to a quivering jelly, unable to perform the simplest motor function or make a rational thought as soon as a fight develops, is seriously overstated.

I also find the idea that I can remember a whole bunch of techniques better than I can remember half a dozen a little strange. Some techniques suit my movements, my strengths, my way of thinking, my fighting strategy and my abilities better than others. Doesn't it make sense that when under pressure I should revert to these, rather than try to work in a technique I'm not so comfortable with?

The bottom line for me is that I have a few techniques that I may be able to make work in a real fight, and a load more that probably wont go so well. In my experience that is true of just about everybody. Not so much muscle memory as just, well... memory really.

raccoon, how often have you seen two people fight on the ground by lying side by side and not moving? No, I haven't either. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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