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#125711 - 04/13/03 12:33 AM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
All this talk about sex and lesbians, condoms et al. my wife told me I can't be on a porno site, so this is bridging very close.LOL..........About the code, God, corps, country,code. Right out of a "Few Good Men", this I believe is a the Marine code. Notice when I talked about code, I didn't say I followed a Bushido code, I said, it was all not killing and bloodshed. Christians have a code, so do Jews, Muslims etc, all based on certain doctrines. To list all the doctrines that influnce my code would take all night. number 1 is a belief in God, so me and the Marines start off the same. The 10 commandments, society laws, Musashi, Sun Tsu, all play into my code. Family is number 1, no questions asked. My dojo family and my Instructors number 2. My art and my training number 3.. Many elements in my code. Want my wallet, take it, want my watch or car have it, touch my family and I will kill you. Have I killed somebody no, no quite. At 17 I walked in on a robbery with a man who had his gun at my fathers head. when I saw this, I went slightly nuts, jumped the man and beat him unconscience. It took 2 police, my uncle and my Dad to peel me off. What set it off was that I saw the robber fire at my dad and miss, and hit my uncle in the arm. The man tried to kill my Dad, I tried to kill him. My Dad then talked to me about code,"Its a God given right to take a life" was what he wanted to stress to me. He never saw his father shot at it, so my code didn't jive with his. Not only would I have killed him, I would have had no problem doing it. From that day on I was always very protective of my dad, he was a potential victim in my eyes, my code at the time said, I will protect my dad, no matter what, laws, or anything else. Much has changed, but the code still exists, touch my family or attempt to I will kill you. I know it sounds harsh, but my code will not allow me to lose a loved one because of pacificism. So as you can see I am the male lion of the family. Bushido plays a part in my code, as you can see, and I don't condone killing but here is a koan I was once told, and its Bushido

injure rather than hurt
hurt rather than maim
maim rather than kill
kill rather than be killed

and finally
better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6.
So there is much to the code, the most important aspect is this, you can never follow it to a "t" people skirt the laws, violate the 10 commandments(ever lied to your parents? Looked at a neighbors wife or husband?) Littered, got a parking ticket, lied, cheated (especially on income taxes, oe in martial art about who you trained with). The idea of code is something you try to live by and and never have to use the hurting part of your code.

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#125712 - 04/13/03 12:58 AM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
And I see that you wife makes up a bunch of your codes [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Sorry about the Adult rated talks. I simply can't think of a better analogy for people who haven't even broken their natural resistance to hurting/ killing another human being, and yet they talk about the bushido code, the "kindness of warrior" etc.

I am a stead fast pacifist, so I don't know if I totally agree with your code. But then like Cato says, if you want peace, prepare for war. Perhaps there are more efficient ways to achieve peace. And perhaps I will learn.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-13-2003).]

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#125713 - 04/13/03 04:42 AM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Oo-er...how did we get from some loony Iraqi guy to lesbians and condoms?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG] You have to love this internet thing [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

Personal codes - an interesting idea. Are we really free to pick and chose our own standards, or are we a product of the culture into which we were born? Do we value certain morals because they are good, or are they good because we value them?

Irrespective of whether or not you agree with war, raccoon, there must be something that attracts you to martial arts. Most pacifists wouldn't dream of using violence in any circumstances. Using violence to achieve your own goals, however honourable, doesn't strike me as particulaly peacefull. Sure, if you want peace etc. but doesn't that pre-suppose that you condone violence of you agree with its aims? In which case there would appear to be something about the samurai tradition that you like, or else why emulate it now?

I don't think there is anything wrong with admiring people who were brutal when they themselves lived in brutal times. To look at history through modern eyes is always a mistake. In 500 years time people may well consider us martial artists brutal, savage and warlike, but by the standards of the day I don't think we are. Through contemporary eyes samurai were behaving exactly as was expected of them. There is nothing wrong with that.

Budo

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#125714 - 04/13/03 05:59 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Oo-er? Still recovering from your heart attack? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I don't know what's so hard about this. Whenever society supresses something, people become obssessed with it.

In the good old days, when EVERYONE in a family live under one roof - when grandpa, grandma, papa, mommy, brother, sister, uncle, cousin lived in the same cave (or room...), sex was just a fact of life, children aren't kept away from the knowledge. Now, everyone has his own room, sex is secretive and dirty. It's a taboo, a "kinki". At the same time this becomes the norm, porn industry florishes.

In the good old days, life and death were in balance. To stay alive you slaughter animals for food. People make do, people make their own food and live off their own land. They raise Johny the little pig (sorry Cato [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]) and they slaughter it when he is grown. They do so with respect, it's their food. They don't kid around when they do it. Children watch the ritual, they might never get used to it, but they respect it as part of life - death is, killing is.

But these days, as far as kids know, meat comes from the fridge in big market; little Johnny is their pet and they will never find out what he tastes like. (incidentally, my grandma slaughtered and cooked my pet dog when I was lil... I didn't find out it's Bingo on the plate until I ate it ;_; My dad did the same thing to my pet fish, and my hen...) People who still work in farms and "live off their land" send their animals to the slaughter house, the worst they ever have to do is to drag little Johnny out of the barn, but they never have to see what he looks like inside.

My point? Our society is making death/killing and violence very taboo. It's something hidden, only a selected group of specialist deal with it. I am not surprised more and more people become interested in martial arts; but to educate the naive about violence is like a bunch of catholic school virgin boys studying sex, the only women beyond their mom they ever talk to are the nuns!

Aye, Sensei Lou must be frowning over the length. I better stop now [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG]

-raccoon

P.S. Cato, don't think I've forgotten! You still haven't spilled your code!
P.S. Just because I train does not mean I condon violence. FYI, I have had my share of violence encounters, some of them I came out quite badly hurt, but I never fought back. Perhaps I should quit karate and concentrate on aikido, where I can focus on a few harmless techniques and hopefully become proficient enough to defend my values without mutilating the pacifist principles.

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-13-2003).]

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#125715 - 04/13/03 07:28 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
My code

rational self interest

bushido

judeo christian ethics (but don't go to church anymore)

where 1 has precedence over 2 and 3 and 2 has precedence over 3.

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#125716 - 04/13/03 07:44 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
A question for you, jo6p. What's rational? And suppose self interest violates other's right? Does it make any difference if, incidentally, by violating others right to defend your "self interest", something else nice comes out of it?

Like, Suppose you are president of US, the Saddam is in US's way of making profit. Do you have the right to invade Iraq and say you do so to free some Iraqi, even though in reality EVERYBODY knows you invaded the country for the oil?

-raccoon

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#125717 - 04/13/03 10:53 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Rational self interest; I do what makes me happy as long as it doesn't violate other's rights. If they violate mine, I'll try to put an end to their actions. Rationality accounts for the real world and risk. Self interest means it benefits you and doesn't hurt others.

I might not agree with a certain law, but I also may comply with it because it isn't worth the risk breaking it.

You don't violate other's rights to protect your self interest. They have tried to violate yours, and so lose some of theirs or risk you harming them in order to defend yours.

Nations do not profit. Taxation revenues or aggregations of personal profit is not equal to a national profit. Even if it's the reason ( I doubt it,) theres some shabby economics going on.

Nations cannot have self interest, but the Governments can act in the self interest of citizens.

So what you have to decide is wether the invasion was in the interests of the US people, and if they hurt Iraqis, was Iraq going to violate their rights?

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#125718 - 04/14/03 01:19 AM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
It's gang up on Racoon day, but don't take it personal. I have to agree with both Cato and Joe, in a perfect world, we wouldn't have violence-war-hatred-fear etc. Now I know Canada is near perfect and you don't have a lot of the concerns here. In Vancover I did hear of a "Biker" war so turmoil does exist there, though on a much smaller scale then here. So I agree with whoever said on whatever post it was, that you are a product of your environment. Where we live, there are about 1-2 killings a day. Its not Detroit or D.C. but its relatively nasty here. Plus our city has outgrown its freeway system, which was designed for a bout a million people and we are approaching 4. There are 5-10 road rage cases a day. Phoenix is the car theft capital of the country and we have car hijackings all the time. In order to be moral here, you have to have an 'attitude' because its that attitude that can keep you moral. In a case of Road Rage, you tell the guy, hey as*h*le get your F'n ass back in the F'n car or I gonna break your F'n neck. In most cases they realize they bit off more than they can chew, and back off. the language is not very moral, but it did indeed keep me from kicking his ass. However if he doesn't heed the warning I am prepared for war, but to keep the peace I try to scare him off. I talk about code and here is an example of code:

A Western-backed Rattlesnake. Actually I like the Sidewinder myself. When you approach and they feel threatened, they rattle at you, back off everything is ok, if not you get struck. The reason I like the Sidewinder is not only does he rattle and warn, but when he attacks, you have no idea where he is going to attack from, instead of moving linear he moves from side to side and can attack from anywhere, but he warns you first. Want peace, prepare for wear. I wonder, but I bet in Sweeden people would view people here as Violent Monsters, warmongers, baby killers etc. Its all based on your environment

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#125719 - 04/14/03 04:09 AM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Ganging up on a pacifist raccoon, this is SO wrong! I am calling the SPCA for back ups! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

So... where should I start? Right, take down the alpha in the pack first.

Lou, you foolish young man, the easiest way to win is to make a great long post and give you headaches! Ha! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

ĎWe are product of our environmentí. I agree with HALF of it. If you want to argue about nature VS nurture, we can argue until the day I die winning the Darwin award. I agree environment AFFECTS how we act, but ultimately you canít hold environment responsible for your actions. Just because you lived in a brutal society doesnít mean you have to be brutal; to buy in that ďsociety made me, I am helpless victimĒ crap is to be weak, to me, thatís very un-martial.

Look at Katsu Kaishu, he was born of the samurai class in feudal Japan, learnt his art, and never had to kill anyone. He facilitated the overthrown of the Tokugawa emperor, and made enough enemies on his ways. But in doing so he helped end the feudal period and brought peace and stability to society. Thatís something you donít see in your everyday samurai. Even Musashi didnít realize the folly of killing to achieve fame until his ripe old age. Pacifism in a brutal world requires exceptional character strength, but it still doesnít excuse us to resolve to violence.

Back to modern US. If, being verbally aggressive works for you to avoid physical confrontations, great. As long as your arenít engaging physically, and you arenít provoking physical violence, I have no problem with it. Some people do budo by karate, others by aikido, I think itís all good.

What I have problem with is when people resolve to physical violence. What I have problem with are people who start wars and SUPPORT wars, especially when they do so blatantly for some oily, greasy profit.

Only people who arenít sure of what they believe in have to fight; only people who arenít very creative and canít think of a better solution have to resolve to violence; only people who arenít very smart and want to keep their head in the sand will enter the military. As soon as you engage yourself in a fight, there is no ethic, there is no nobility, there is no right or wrong. There is win and there is lose; there is live and there is death; there is fight and there is give up; there is offense and there is defense, but nothing else.

ďOh, chance to attack. Wait, canít attack when he has his guards down. Thatís not noble.Ē

War doesnít work that way; fights donít either. Itís wrong to walk yourself into situations where you have no choice, where there is no room/ time for ethical judgments. Itís true at all levels. In H2H combat, you ďmustĒ hurt your opponent so you donít get hurt Ö but you are wrong to get into that fight in the first place. In the armed force, you ďhave toĒ shoot people with your AK-47 because captain says fire. But itís still your fault those people died, because you have chosen by free will to enter the military.

Are we free to make up our own code, just pick up some aikido techniques, and still be aikidoka? [again I am only 5th kyu and nothing I say holds any value, I am only stating my unworldly opinion. Do I have to repeat this every time I post?] My answer is NO. To do so is analogous to taking out kata from karate, or pain, or self denials. You are no longer practicing the art with integrity. You are doing aikido dance.

To summarize, your Sidewinder code is all good, but itís not aikidoís style as far as I understand. And if you live by that code and claim to be aikidoka, then you are wrong. You are violating the integrity of the art.


.


Back to Cato> I had the preconception that budo is about making peace, and not about condoning violence, way before I started training in anything. Even in ďhard styleĒ like karate, I donít learn to destroy. I learn self-denial, humility, perseverance, tolerance, mannerism, appreciation, and kindness. Thatís what I take with me out of the dojo, not the kicks nor the blocks. And therefore, my training in budo does not pre-suppose I condone violence. I still disagree with samuraiís tradition. Children of samurai class are taught to kill animals by the age of 5, execute prisoners by the age of 15. Thatís a load of craps to screw a childís psyche with. No matter how small a kindness, I think itís wrong to smother. In the book bushido, it talks about too much kindness makes one weak, too much righteousness makes one rigid. I disagree. You can learn to be firm and righteous WHILE being kind. I call it tough love, itís very aiki.

Oh, right, Joe. Sorry I came off a little aggressive. Itís all Catoís fault [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Thank you for clarifying, the ďnot violate others rightĒ wasnít immediately clear in the self-interest.

Whew, thanx for the group attack. I think I am finally getting some idea as to how to answer Catoís waves of inquisitions!

Yours in Aiki
-raccoon


[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-14-2003).]

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#125720 - 04/14/03 09:56 AM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I think it would have taken an exceptional person to step outside their culture in feudal times, and to decide that they would be non-conformist. It would be even more exceptional if they lasted long enough to do anything about it. Tolerance is the preserve of modern society, and doesn't appear to have had much place in history. I would say the nature/nurture debate is a product of a permissive society.

As for nobility in war, take the present conflict. Is it true to say the western armies could have simply steamrollered their way into Iraq, using overwhelming firepower and massive military superiority to overcome any resistance. Yet they have refused to attack Iraqi batteries hiding in hospitals, despite taking fire from them. Is that a form of nobility?


I'm also curious as to how someone can train in budo, yet not be prepared to defend themselves.

raccoon - I think the way to deal with too many questions is to apply aiki principles and avoid them until your ready to deal with them!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo

[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 04-14-2003).]

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