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#125701 - 04/11/03 12:12 PM Integrity and Honesty in things martial
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
As a general rule Martial arts, particularly aikido, teach us that there is a certain code of behaviour amongst combatants, be it bushido or whatever else you want to call it. Consequently we try to behave in accordance with this code, and then along comes the Iraqi Information Minister.

Whatever you think of the war in Iraq you must admit this man is without doubt a phenomena, but how to what extent, if at all, does he conform to the "warrior" code?

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#125702 - 04/11/03 01:13 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Define warrior code? What code do you go by? Did you made up your own? Or did you just take what's handed down from freudal Japan?

-raccoon

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#125703 - 04/11/03 02:47 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
All these threads, I am so overwhelmed! All things have a code of behaviour, whether it be bold face Iranian lying or set behaviour in an Aikido dojo. A Karate dojo's code is quite different. There is a heiarchy in the dojo, in Aikido a Dan is a Dan, and not questioned or tested by others. In Karate you have to 'beat the man to be the man'. You are constantly tested in a Karate dojo. There is a heiarchy in the outside world as well. look at the military itself, and its ranking system.Your superiors dictate a certain type of heiarchy, which could explain the Iranian deal. He may be lying to save his neck. If he told the truth he may be killed. However, if you looked into his eyes, you could tell he was lying, he didn't exude much warrior sprirt to me. Look at some of the POW's and you could see who was afraid and those who showed the warrior face aand didn't show any emotion. So my answer is there is a code of behaviour for all that we do, in kindergarden its one thing, in the dojo another and in the military, similar yet different. We all have codes to live by and I think its more personal, than general

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#125704 - 04/11/03 02:50 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
I am so glad I am not the only one overwhelmed O__O I am supposed to be finishing projects and studying for exams. And I am losing sleep over all these questions!

Oh, I had no focus in karate and was awarded 100 push ups then send home early DISHONORABLY because fundamentals of aikido is all I could think about...

But then if Sensei Lou is overwhelmed... I feel justified ;__;

yours not in aiki
-raccoon

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#125705 - 04/11/03 04:53 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Don't be overwhelmed, I'm just getting started!!! If I have got you thinking about aikido, rather than just doimg aikido then I am a happy(ish) man.

I suppose what I'm getting at here is how easy is it to apply your personal code to someone you probably don't like very much.

We all think of bushido as being very honourable and associate it with people we respect and admire. Try placing some of those values on someone you don't admire and it becomes quite difficult. But if we are to gain a true understanding of whatever it is we consider bushido (or whatever) to be, shouldn't we be able to see it in our enemies as well?

Budo

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#125706 - 04/12/03 01:31 AM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Can we talk about something else? This thinking stuff is too hard for me. I personally keep my code to me. To my students I stress to them to have a code, and explain what a code is. I do not place my values on anyone else. Using "Bagdad Bob" in my view, he was weak, an unworthy adversary. In studying his body postures and listening to him, he was an easy target, and he had no code. According to my code he was nothing more than a mouth piece. My wife and friends see him entirely different, and I have even heard people say hi was the force behind the throne. It all depends on your own warrior code and how you see others. People with no code of behavior or no code at all, could feel fear for someone like him. All I can say its a personal thing, that is a life experience type thing. What is worth fighting over? In Japan you could dishonor someone with words and have to fight. Here is it names, wealth, or loved ones. My Brazillian Jujutsu Sensei was arrested in Brazil because a local Brazillian tried to steal his new Nike's he got here. They fought in the center of a mall, and by the way he was wearing the Nikes. In the middle of the mall these 2 were fighting over Nike's, and the police locked them up in the same cell and told them to finish the fight in there. The winner leaves, the loser spent the night in jail. Fighting over Nike's, being called names, is not in my code, but it is in others.

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#125707 - 04/12/03 04:34 AM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Don't be overwhelmed, I'm just getting started!!!
[/QUOTE]
BLOODY MURDER! You mean, this is only the appertizer?? O__O;

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
We all think of bushido as being very honourable and associate it with people we respect and admire.
[/QUOTE]

Do we all, really? I don't know if I do. In fact, I think I know I don't. As far as I understand, bushido code is bloody and brutal. I don't admire samurai's ability to kill heartlessly. I admire O'Sensei's courage to break that ugly and supposedly brave and tough and romantic tradition, and bring some sense into the bu tradition.

You like to think you've successfully dodged my question, but I am going to hunt you down. What's YOUR code like? Do you go by the feudal bushido code? The code that endorse the 5 virtues [kindness, righteousness, manner, wisdom, trust - sorry I read it in Japanese, so it's translated, but I think this is accurate] Or do you go by the one dictated by your country's law / your work departmant? Or do you go by musashin's motto? I am curious to find out!

-raccoon

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#125708 - 04/12/03 02:25 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Well I have to disagree a bit, Bushido in my mind is more than just killing someone. Its an aspect, but they studied literature(classics)caligraphy, haiku's, ikebana(flower arranging), tea ceremony etc. Try to find a copy of Oscar Ratti's Secrets of the Samurai, and it talks about other facets of Samurai training. I actually appreciate the Samuara for not only could they kill, but break limbs or just restrain you. The one thing about Bushido training is the control that is taught. I really don't think it was all blood and guts, but the were military and in war that is necessary. Also, study some Japaneese war strategy and they still use it today. Archers, spears, and Samurai. Today bombs armour and cavalry. same basic priciple. I think they were brilliant stategists too. Do you know the first rifle sight was done by Samurai. They aimed the rifle, it had a plumb attached to a string and hung to the ground. You sight the gun, mark the spot in the dirt, then line up and fire. Pretty smart huh, yea Samurai were pretty impressive in my mind

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#125709 - 04/12/03 10:27 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
Well I have to disagree a bit,[/QUOTE]

I, on the other hand, agree a bit [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] In fact, I agree with everything you said in the previous post. Bushido isn't ONLY about killing, and samurai are the military men, they are warriors at war. But they weren't just airy head brutes; some are highly educated in many disciplines. If applied to samurai, bushido code might even be a code of honor.

But the truth remains that we aren't military men and we are not at war. (alright, your country might be at war, but the fight is over at Iraq) My guess is that you've never killed anyone, and my hope is that you will never have to kill anyone. (At least I hope I wouldn't be the one you have to kill [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG] ) So what's the sense of teaching the kindness that "restrains" our "killing habit /instinct /urge" when we don't have one to begin with? What's the kindness in not killing when it isn't the norm to kill? What's the "courage" in asking your opponent to finish you off when you lose in a fight?

If, modern dojosei at budo are like a club of virgins studying sex, then attempts to apply bushido code on modern "warriors" is perhaps analogous to educating lesbians the importance of proper condom use. Sure, a lesbian might be raped, and us civvy might face deadly force. But the fact remains that we are not constantly engaging death (through killing or risk dying), and IMHO it's ludicrous to live by the feudal bushido code.

But now I am far too curious, what's in your code, sensei Lou?

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-12-2003).]

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#125710 - 04/12/03 10:34 PM Re: Integrity and Honesty in things martial
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Woops, never mind. I just reread your post and notice you said you prefer to keep your code to yourself. I respect that, sensei Lou. Sorry for pressing.

-raccoon

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