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#125695 - 04/16/03 02:23 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
and the circle continues............Its 2003, not 1603. Cato is right, we don't train like Samurai. Racoon, Ninjitsu does not train like Ninjas use to. Its not the same generation.Ninjitsu, preserves a historical culture, but you can't train in steath tody, they way they did. Nor can we ride on hoseback with 3 different swords today.
If you ask a person from every generation from 1600 to 2000 to make a doll, the base would be the same, a doll, but each genration of doll would look different. To magnify this, ask someone from the 50's to a doll and someone now, and see the difference. Look at Barbie and how she evolved.
As Cato said, Society has evolved, and arts must evolve with it. Its great to learn physchology, and philosophy but what if you are learning this from a Sensei who lived in Japan, Okinawa or China, there philosophy will be different, than one who lived here there entire life. Are they a product of the 50's-60's or 70's, that will dictate their philosophy also. A Sensei once told me it wasn't his job to enlighten me, or teach me his set of values. He was a biker and saw things much different than his Sensei, so he felt it wrong to influence my way of thinking.
Cato talked about danger signs, do you really think what your Sensei views as danger you will also.
we have to have our own philosophy, and if you don't have one-get one-develope one, at least it will be yours and not one told to you. In another thread we talked about prejudices, everyone has them, so we need to do what is best for us now, not what happened in 1600, or pretending to be something we are not. we are not Samurai, we can not practice like them, no one is paid to be a Samurai today, or a Ninja either. If you want to pretend to be one, thats fine but its not the real thing. We have stealth planes that drop bombs from 5 miles up, and special forces with high technology, Samurai and Ninja days are gone. There codes are fine, but their practice is outdated.

#125696 - 04/16/03 03:27 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Sensei Lou,

Once again, I think you've misinterprete what I said.

All I am saying is, in old days, warrior study a wholesome art. Today, we don't.

If, aikido's purpose is to preserve peace and self, and if some of the original work is no longer relevant to current society, I am arguing that maybe we should adapt the art so that it still pertain to peacekeeping, but perhaps not through traditional means, such as handling katana.

If ninjitsu is about always being prepared to persevere through any situation and never be surprised; and if scaling wall and riding horses doesn't suit modern day anymore, I am arguing we should learn survival in modern world, on top of fighting skills. To me, learning to use GPS properly is very ninja.

All I am trying to say is that we no longer approach our art in a well rounded manner. It has became a hobby, not a way of life. In the past, you are a ninja, you conceal your identity while going about your daily life. You might be a farmer or kabuki or cook or whatever, you are always careful to conceal your identity and you are always observing and aware. The same goes for peasants who trained karate; they are aware when they aren't training. When samurai aren't fighting, they are still aware. They don't sit cross legged, they learn to sit in ways so that their leg doesn't get in the way of drawing; they keep a shorter sword at the out house, they never bathe without a knife near by... those are practiced because that's part of being warriors.

Of course, I am not saying we are to replicate the practice, I am saying we should make an effort to keep our art well rounded and address aspects other than wrist locks that pertains to harmoniously dissolving aggressions. (in terms of aikido). Ever heard of the saying, "Donít seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, seek what they sought."?

And FYI, I don't think I am a ninja just because I have some training. I don't think I am a samurai just because I train iaido. I understand and agree the days for carrying katana and riding horses are gone. I do not live in a fantasy world, I understand
the political climate that spawned the Ninja as a class of people no longer exists any where in the world today. I simply argue that the ideas, spirit, and traditions can be continued and made useful by those in modern day society. I believe the spirit of the ninja/ samurai/ warrior is alive and well. I think that every armed forces in modern times have borrowed techniques from the pioneer commandos of ancient Japan. And if you look at it in that context, perhaps the real ninja are in special forces or special operations groups these days.

To summarize, I think there has always been more to budo/bujitsu than pure fighting skill. To practice only fighting skill and ignore other aspect, is to mutilate the integrety of the art.

yours respectfully but argumentativelly,

(Please don't get mad sensei Lou, I just really believe in the things that I am saying and I really believe there are flaws in how we practice these days. I hope you know I respect you a whole lot. I am sorry for being argumentative. Please forgive!)

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-16-2003).]

#125697 - 04/17/03 01:43 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
No need for the aplogy, you are perfectly correct in your feelings, and are to be admired for your view. I do believe however that your outlook will change as you mature(shuhari process) in your training. Nothing is as it seems, and I think you will come to see this.
If you truly want to be well rounded, both on the mat and off the mat training, that is great. I tell my students to learn the art of :
telling someone to go to hell, and they leave right away, hopefully without any provocation.
However, well rounded needs to start somewhere, and as a beginner you need to get basics down, a foundation for your house. You can not expect a beginner to understand certain things until he devlopes. Thats why you see people moving on after Black Belt, the world you see is a bit different. If you look at it its like grade school (basics)then high school(here you tell the teacher what they want to hear, you don't think, you study and remember)then College. Here is where you develope your thesis, and use the knowledge you have recieved in your early years. I think to be well rounded it has to start on the mat, do your time, and train, then analyze where your at(critically analyze) In Chuck Norris's book Zen in Everyday Life, he talks of keeping the wheel round. Each spoke of the wheel represents an aspect of your life or training. Spokes in training could be viewed as :
are my strikes as good as my locks
are my blocks as good as my kicks
and so on and so on. If you heed this, you will always be working something. I took 10 years out of my Jujutsu training to work on my striking so my striking would be equal to that of my locking, then you add grappling, and everything need to be equal.
Off the mat,
am I as good a husband as Sensei
am I as good a friend as I am a husband
am I as good a father as a husband.
Once again you are always seeking to improve some area. I try to be a good Sensei, the best I can, without sacraficing my family or friends. To me, being well rounded, centered, is very important. So you have nothing to worry about, and if I were upset, that would be my problem not yours. I would have to question what kind of Sensei I would be if I get upset at someone voicing their opinion. Also how else will you see things if I get mad and not say anything. don't worry about me, keep you eyes and your mind open, and be like a sponge and just absorb knowledge, thats what its all about, not some old, as you and Cato say, un-photogenic Sensei

#125698 - 04/17/03 01:51 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Thank you Sensei Lou!!! I was so worried I keep checking back every 5 minutes to get ready to apologize ;__; Silly me!

Thanx again, here is a cyber hug from me - [IMG][/IMG]-


[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-17-2003).]

#125699 - 04/17/03 02:19 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Aaw, It's all turned out nice again. I hate it when that happens [IMG][/IMG]

I think you are quite right raccoon, it is all about how we practice. I practice MA's because I enjoy it. It is, if you like, my hobby. It is not my life. I don't live to train, and I don't apply MA's to everything I do. I don't think many of us would qualify as martail artists in the traditional sense, because how many of actually train because we need to in order to survive? Times change, whether that is a good thing or bad thing is a matter of opinion.

And, just to finish with a flourish, here is a cyber poke in the eye for you all from me. [IMG][/IMG]


[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 04-17-2003).]

#125700 - 04/17/03 05:37 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Cato. do me a favor and get your four legged, hairy friend to give you a hearty bite! (And you know which friend I am talking about!! [IMG][/IMG])

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