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#125685 - 04/15/03 01:09 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
More than ability/competence, although that's what I primarily mean. If you can properly put in rapid fire combos and execute throws, restraints and finishing blows, you are better off than someone who can't.

if you can punch faster and hit weak points (or use one finger strikes to the throat and knees to the gorin,) and methodically engage each target after one is put down, so to speak, this is hardly going to be the method an agressor uses, i.e, once engaged, threats are taken out quickly as possible

if an aikido ka can efficiently and effectively throw (harshly) and break joints (extensions of locks) and use force to redirect into atemi into vital points, my money is on them.

awareness

use of surroundings as weapons

the will to hurt to deter harm, maim to deter maiming, and kill to deter being killed

experience

confidence

technical superiority

"jissen" experience i.e, can deal with pain, being hit, whereas unlikely agressor, still dangerous, conditions for blows

trained for "mutal combat" (fighting, ring combat) and "self defense", (moves used to maim or incapacitate, out of kata or taught in sequence)

other than that, the trained fighter has a big upper hand, besides a group exceeding three or more, knives and firearms.

train to hurt, maim and even kill. The thought of putting my fingers through someone's eyes or my foot through their knee used to make me cringe, but training to not care when appropriate stops you and others from being harmed from agression

doesn't some aikido train in jo and other cudgel type weapons that may be improvised in a confrontation? Surely, that is an advantage?

Yeah, deescalate or if possible, ignore or avoid them, but if pushed ot cornered, you need to open a can of whupass to preserve yourself, and teach them a "lesson in harmony".

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#125686 - 04/15/03 02:02 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Thanx for the explanation joe, that's great. It 's scary to realize the only thing I have in this list is jissen experience. Now I have to look for more stuff to augment my training x__x

Another question for you, how does an aikidoka throw "harshly"? Doesn't the intensity of the throw depend on how commited the attacker is? Or are you suggesting you can add more to it by, say, using muscle, or more rotation?

Aaiiee, train to maim. Somehow that doesn't sound very aiki to me [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

-raccoon

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#125687 - 04/15/03 01:46 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Real quick here. it is fine to believe that you can use 100% of your attackers energy to throw him, but many times he doesn't give you a full fledged attack. No matter what you say about Aiki principles, when you throw someone you have to add you own
force/momentum/energy/ to the throw. Look how many times in the dojo you go to throw someone only to find you didn't get their balance immmediately, you have to add your own whatever to complete the throw. No one is going to throw himself and most of the time a person will attempt to regain his lost balance. A principle of nature is we always seek natural centers. when you lose your balance whats the first thing you do, try to regain it. Its a law of nature, we always try to keep physically balanced(should mentally too).
Throwing harshly, is nothing more than the amount of your energy/momentum/force even ki that you add to the technique. Also, alot of the leverage you create can dictate the harshness of the throw. We use the chin for Iriminage, with a heel palm, we generate more whatever you want to call it, we call it force, because the lever is the chin, and you get more torgue to the throw. You can also add hip rotation to throws which will create more power as well. Aiki principle is great, but when you go to use it must be amended, just like Bunkai in kata. Done in kata one way, applied in another. Aiki is the kata in the dojo, the application is what makes it work for real.Form vs. funtion. The function of the throw should be to put your attacker where you want him and that he can't continue to fight. If one does a kokyu nage, and the person rolls out or doesn't roll, you still have a fight on your hands. People need to remember that Aiki can be made to be self-defense techniques, and with all the philosophy and everthing it still needs to work

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#125688 - 04/15/03 03:38 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Well I have nearly been started on many times (wonder why?), always manage to talk my way out of the situation (once surrounded by 6 blokes!).

Secret is - make sure there are no losers, your opponent doesn't want to lose face and you do not want to be seen as weak.

There are self protection (not self defence) systems which teach this out there but most Martial Arts have evolved from the battle field so this need for verbal skills has never developed.

Shame really...

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#125689 - 04/15/03 05:11 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
In response to the defeated Cato...

[QUOTE] I'm not sure that it is the place of martial arts to teach them. Most martial artists don't have the experience or knowledge to teach how to handle violent encounters. I know I don't have any fail safe ways og avoiding a fight and I've spent my life trying to do just that.[/QUOTE]

why isn't martial arts the place to teach that?
Because the instructors don't qualify?
Then shouldn't we seek qualified persons in the art to teach the arts?
There are many on this forum who question those who never had to fight on the street to preach self defense. How about those who have never been to war and never had to kill teaching martial arts? Are we saying we should ignore some important aspect of martial training because most people in the arts don't already have the training/ qualification to teach it? But how will people in the art ever have the qualification to teach it if we don't start training them?
In another thread, you questioned the practice of old weapons. You criticized it as turning martial arts into some kind of historical preservation society, when they should be self preservation. I take it that you think traditional budo should keep evolving to suit present time. Then perhaps we should consider things other than wrist locks that would suit peacemaking/ self preservation in modern society?
I am not only talking about verbal de-escalation. I am talking about many other aspects that traditional budo practioners seem to fail to address. Things such as recognising potential threats; things such as awareness. I remember watching a Hong Kong movie when I was a kid. A very memorable scene was a professional assasinator going to sleep, she had to balance a empty water bottle upside down in front of her bedroom door. She then places a coin on top... and she slept, and her sleep was light. And when the lightest vibration tilted the bottle and the coin falls, she bonces out of bed with pistol in hand. Now, I know that's movie... but I think that's a good illustration of zanshin in modern world. If things that no longer hold importance in modern world should be thrown away, shouldn't we introduce things into our art that pertains to the aiki principle - to be expertly efficient at self persevation and violence/ conflict handling that the practioner no longer needs to be aggressive, angry, and in fear, because the potential aggressors is no longer a threat?
Surely in feudal Japan, students in budo studies more than just sword fighting techniques. Like Sensei Lou indicated, many of them studied war strategy. They study habits of their foes and they study their enviromnemts. I never really buy into those tea ceremony and calligraphy things, but I am sure there reasons are why samurai were educated those. Now, if we throw those traditions away because they are no longer relevant to modern society... shouldn't we introduce similar activities that would keep our arts wholesome?

Just some thougts.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-15-2003).]

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#125690 - 04/15/03 07:54 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Okay, let's step into the real world for a moment. Martial arts will not make anybody a lethal killing machine. Sure, the techniques are based upon those used in actual combat, and have been devised by people who actually had to rely upon them, but most if not all modern practitioners do not train in the same way as samurai did. Thankfully.

Our martial arts are idealisations. They may help you to defend yourself sgainst a clumsy mugger, but they are not about killing anyone. You are learning a way in which you could theoretically kill someone, but it is my bet that to actually do so is beyond most martial artists because they don't train to do so. There is a whole lot more to killing someone than knowing a technique or two that might help you do so.

Now, what you propose is that martial arts instructors start teaching stuff they have no knowledge of, or even anything upon which to base their teachings. What do you suggest they do? They should perhaps just guess? Maybe make it up as they go along? While we're at it why not get them to teach first aid, that's fairly relevant to combat too.

Of course we could seek out people who are qualified to teach these things, but who exactly qualifies?

Alternatively, there are a number of "new" systems that do address these concerns. Exactly where they get information from is somewhat vague, but what the hell. They're probably right.

Martial arts should evolve to some extent and change with the times, but we also need to accept that there are limitations on what a style of fighting can teach us.

Martial arts instructors are people who have a little knowledge of a system of fighting techniques, no more and no less. For the most part they aren't even professionals and they "work" in an unregulated field. We already have more bogus, half trained, ill informed half wits teaching martial arts, do you really want them to start teaching psychology and physiology as well? There is a saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. In this context I think it is.

Just some thoughts of my own. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#125691 - 04/15/03 09:20 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Okay, let's step into the real world for a moment. Martial arts will not make anybody a lethal killing machine. Sure, the techniques are based upon those used in actual combat, and have been devised by people who actually had to rely upon them, but most if not all modern practitioners do not train in the same way as samurai did. Thankfully. [/QUOTE]

Whoa whoa whoa! That just means that most people do not train diligently enough.

There is no need for new systems unless the old ones deteroriate and decay - lie many have. But human nature has not changed for 65 000 000 years.

Yeah, but you SHOULD be taught physiology and psychology - even if your lazy, half witted instructor tells you to go the library and read Jung and Gray's anatomy. Leanring how to descalate situations and how the human body works is invaluable.

The International Ryukyu Karate Research Society's one year university course teaches many things, including these.
http://www.society.webcentral.com.au/instructors.htm

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#125692 - 04/16/03 05:23 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Sorry Joe, I'm off on my high horse once again [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I personally don't know of anyone who practice in the same way as samurai used to. I do know a lot of people who I consider train dilligently. In order to prepare for the taking of life samurai started training very young, by cutting up cadavres. They also lived in a society which placed no value on the life of a peasant. Killing one did not bring all the attendant emotions associated with killing today. They became de-sensitized to killing.

Most people these days would have trouble killing a cat that had been run over and was in pain. It really isn't that easy. I think human nature has changed considerably in the last 1000 years, never mind 65 000 000 years!!

It takes a certain mindset to cope with something as traumatic as killing another person. Martial arts training doesn't even begin to address that. Soldiers are taught from day one to kill, yet when it comes to hey lads hey, many of them can't do it one on one.

My contention about psychology is really very simple. You can't be taught anything by someone who isn't qualified to teach it. You can sit around and talk about it, you can share opinion on it, but you can not be taught a single thing. Mis information is far worse than no information at all.

Suppose my sensei tells me that the danger signs at the beginning of a conflict are A,B and C. What qualifies him to teach that? My sensei knows infinitely more about MA's than I do, but I will have had far more violent encounters than he has. Just because he knows MA's it doesn't follow that he also knows the psychology and physiology of a fight.

Budo

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#125693 - 04/16/03 06:11 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
sorry for double posting

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-16-2003).]

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#125694 - 04/16/03 07:07 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
perhaps your sensei can get you to teach that class?

How about a show and tell once a month, having student teaching their expertise?

It's done in a ninjitsu school I visited. It's also done in many ninjitsu school worldwide. I know how you feel about the art - but lets not bash it because you havent trained in it and don't know very much about it. But rather, consider maybe there is something we can learn from how they teach?

I agree no one but the expert should teach the subject. A man cannot possibly be a master in all trades. I don't ask the same sensei who teaches you koshinage and corrects your ukemi to teach the verbal de-escalation class. I am suggesting verbal de-escalation be part of aikido training.

Getting students with street experience AND good understandings in aikido principles to teach, may be a good place to start. In fact, I think I am talking to one.

-raccoon

P.S.> Perhaps we are losing our art because majority of us no longer train in ways that has any resemblance to samurai? I have been really thinking hard lately, we like to criticize other school as "rainbow warrior dojo", "McDojo", "Bad Budo" so much. But perhaps we all practice bad budo, because we make excuses and allow ourselves to not apply our art in every aspect in life.



[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-16-2003).]

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