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#125675 - 04/11/03 12:57 AM trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Not wanting to hijack Cato’s “morality” thread, allow me to post something a little different (but perhaps redundant).

What good is martial training if we are being taught 50 ways to lock a wrist, but not one minute of our training is spend on the art of negotiation, or verbal redirection, or situational awareness, or threat recognitions etc?

Are we at risk of putting too much emphasis on technical advancement and losing sight to non-physical/ technical aspects of harmonizing? Is the current budo community as a whole, placing too much emphasis on pure fighting ability, and not enough emphasis on different “facets” of violence? How many of us are taught awareness in everyday life, such as the risk of hands in pocket on the street; or both legs in pants when “emptying bowel”? How many of us learn to recognize signs of potential violence out break? The most potentially violence place/ situation in current society? How many of us think of budo as a noble thing and could not possibly imagine someone striking you when you have your guards down?

I know I am guilty of most of the above. I also know I’ve only been to one dojo so far that even scratches the surface of all these.

So I guess my question really is, is our training method/ curriculum well developed to create “harmonizers”?

Yours in aiki
-raccoon


[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-11-2003).]

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#125676 - 04/11/03 01:33 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I hate this, trying to put something in words that needs a sit down. However, harmonizing, how is hitting someone in the face harmonizing? So its just not Aiki locks that need to address harmonizing. But let me ask, isn't that smack to the chops necessary sometime? Isn't that lock or break necessary at times. Gun in my face you will lose your wrist or fingers. It is necessary at times. I think that one reason a 'value system' is not stressed is everyone has their own. Some may listen to their Sensei, but those who train to learn to fight, are not going to abide by the defense only deal. Also you have people taken the arts into the sports arena and they are looking for titles and ranking and such. No teaching a value system will work.I have seen people who are die hard Sensei's pets, and listen to him as if he were a Guru, but remember, its his value system too. i know of a sensei who use to carry salt in his pockets, he would start a fight, throw salt in the opponets eyes, then beat the hell out of the guy. He never lost a fight, I wonder why. His students were basically the same way until one student realized he was fighting Sensei's fight for him, and it was wrong. Ooops different value system. Sensei being from Old Okinawa saw nothing wrong with what he was doing, his students did. Now he is a sweet old guy who tells his students not to fight at all costs. Oooops different value system again. So if you interested in complete training, develope your own value system, decide what is fighting for and what isn't, take your training off the mat and apply it to everyday life. Everyone needs a code, a "Do" a way that you will address your art and how you will use it. I call it your niche, maybe you heard that before?

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#125677 - 04/11/03 01:55 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]I call it your niche, maybe you heard that before? [/QUOTE]

Perhaps I've heard that one before, geez does it ring a bell... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

But... are you saying there is no principle in the art we train in? Surely people come in to look for sport, or self defense course, or socialization. But if that's their main focus, perhaps they are in the wrong place?

Sure, when the event gets violent, you need to address that. If it takes a punch to the face to put the situation under control, I have no qualms about that. But hey, haven't you ever asked yourself, "Why didn't I see it coming all along? All the signs are flashing in my face!"? Have you not been in situations where it only takes a smart mouth, or backing down, or some empathy, to redirect a potentially violent outbreak? Why do our training put so much focus on the actual fight, and so little on everything else around the fight. In a street situation, how many seconds does a fight usually take? How many minutes, scratch that, I mean hours, days, were things set up and eventually escalated into a violence outbreak?

Or are we arguing that budo is purely about fighing, and not about controlling/preventing/stopping violence?

yours argumentativelly (*guilty look)
-raccoon

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#125678 - 04/11/03 04:21 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I might also ask, what good is it if the training is not realistic? I don't train with you, so I cannot say whether or not your "randori" is of a street reality. Do your partners help you train by throwing "real" shots to your head while you try and hit your wrist locks?

That's something that must be in place in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

-John

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#125679 - 04/11/03 04:59 AM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Mr. Kogas>

I am sorry I didn't made myself clearer. I agree training is no good if it isn't as realistic as possible. And I will tell you my personal stance: I simply don't view those who spend all their sparring/randori time playing tag games/ dance as martial artists. If they enjoy making their sports/ dance hold resemblance to some traditional budo form, I hold nothing against them. Personally I think golf is pretty lame, but if you like to call that a "sport"? Who am I to stop you?

BUT, the point of this thread is: is there more to handling / preventing violence than just the physical fighting techniques? From reading your posts in other forum, I see that you consider yourself a fighter, and not a "martial artist". I have nothing against that, I personally train with a few kick boxers/ shoot fighters who fight professionally for money, and they are damn good fighters. But this thread IS about traditional budo, which (imho) encompasses more than just pure fighting.

BTW, in case you are still thinking us traditionalists are defenseless wusses who play only tag games and compliance dance sequences - let me throw in my own defense. In fact I think this point has been repeated to you a few times: budo ARE practiced with contact and at different ranges for hundreds of years; realistic fighting training is very traditional. It's the new age american day-care business that try to make a safe sport for children to play, and sell their day-care package as safe and fun activities that come with a mysterious reputation of forging virtuous values.

Sorry if I over reacted. I just think your point of "aliveness/ reality training" has been repeated enough of times. It's a valid point ane well intended, but... may I have your permission to discuss something else?

Thanx for allowing this thread to stay on topic.

yours sincerely,
-raccoon

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#125680 - 04/11/03 04:42 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Oh, that's right...just hijack my "morality" thread why don't you. It's not as if I have many threads going as it is. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Shouldn't martial arts be solely about fighting? Anything else might well be considered subordinate to the main purpose.

We do learn other things like zanshin that may help to recognise the onset of a fight, but by and large martial arts are by definition the arts of fighting, not the arts of NOT fighting. That would be called running away, which most martial artists would not approve of.

Budo (with tongue placed lightly in cheek)

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#125681 - 04/11/03 06:08 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Yea buddy, give me a break! I found a chance to start a thread with my own name, am I going to let it slip??

Mr. V and his fellowship of Brits are already taking over the whole General Discussion AND self defense board. Am I going to hand this board over to you? Dude! Think twice [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I am prepared for war, do your worst!

-raccoon (with high spirit and tongue in cheek)

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#125682 - 04/14/03 01:49 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I conceed defeat...this tiome. Only because you asked a very good question though!

I think it is vitally important to aurment fighting skills with de-escalation tactics. But I'm not sure that it is the place of martial arts to teach them. Most martial artists don't have the experience or knowledge to teach how to handle violent encounters. I know I don't have any fail safe ways og avoiding a fight and I've spent my life trying to do just that.

As ever John gets on his "train realistic" bandwagon, but I think he misses the point. It is simply not possible to train realistically. You can train against a resisting training partner but that is nothing like fighting a determined aggressor.

Budo

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#125683 - 04/14/03 07:45 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I don't think it matters, if you posess with competence, a will to "lay them down" in order for self preservation.

Hurt the bastards.

You must train to hurt the other person if you are uke, coming in with an attack.

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#125684 - 04/14/03 08:21 PM Re: trainings on the mats - is it adequate?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Joe6p,

Aaah, I have to disagree again.

I don't know what it means to "posess with competence", but if it's just strength/ fighting skill that you are referring to...

when you are engaging with someone, you can either be stronger or weaker...

In a street confrontation, many factors can decide whether it escalates into fights, if it does, whether anyone get hurts, how badly hurts, and at the end of the day... who comes out alive.

And as far as I understand, fighting ability is only a small factor that affects those outcomes.

On the street, fighting ability doesn't play nearly as big a role as it does on the ring. Which is the main point of this thread.

Now... I agree in training, senarios/ paired work should be made as realistic as possible. However, I disagree with the "hurt the bastard". For me, winning in a street confrontation means coming out in one piece. The best way to achieve it is to de-escalate so that I don't have to fight to start with. If it breaks into a fight, sure, self persevation is an important goal. And if it takes some offensiveness for you to get out, I am not going to be criticizing. But to hold "hurting the bast**d" as a goal of the conflict... it simply doesn't sit well with the aikido mentality (protect all being, including the aggressor). In fact, if you ask me, it disagrees with all budo principles.

Just some thoughts as an aikidoka.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-14-2003).]

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