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#125666 - 04/16/03 08:49 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Well said Cato!

-raccoon (also without prejudice)

#125667 - 04/17/03 03:13 PM Re: Bladed weapons
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Raccon.........I think someone has fallen off the wrong side of the college couch. I was going to answer this last night, but had a migraine from reading your last post! However, by this time you should know that I wouldn't take pot shots at a style without having viewed it or practiced in it. I trained with a Ninjitsu student of Stephen Haines, the 'Guru" of Ninjitsu. His student and I traded techniques and discussed much about Ninjitsu. It was this Sensei who told me that the main purpose of Ninjitsu is to preserve the style, that it had not evolved with society and didn't want to. It is much like Iaido, still practiced as it was, but not necessarily useful. You can make Ninjitsu work, but again the purpose is that of preservation. It was this Sensei who said their knife work was limited at best, and would not bode well on the street today. It uses basic knife thrusts, that are easily dealt with. He was the one who said study with a knife fighter to learn how to defend against it. Also he said the same thing about kicking. Train with a person who knows how to kick, to practice your defense against, not someone who barely knows how to do so. So much for the Ninja lesson, my point and think what you will, have you ever seen Indonesian knife art.Its not a question of my style as I have no rank in it, I learned for the sake of learning knife techniques because they are the best in my mind. So asking if I have seen Ninjitsu, have you seen any Indonesian arts. Can't really compare something if you haven't. We actually wear fencing masks so we can cut to the face. Gloves,elbow pads and a mask and we use metal knives, not wooden play toys.If you never have had a blade wizzing at your face or striking you there, you really can't get the feel of knife fighting. We go complete freestyle, cutting limbs and slashing face. The biggest respect I have is for a knife. I think you should reconsider your stand about getting aggressive with a knife fighter. I study body movement with empty hands and knife fighting . You will not believe how open you are when you attack. If you were to attack one of my students empty hands, and they had a knife, you initiated, you would die. Hard to read, but that is why I suggest you review your stand on this. Knives are serious business, and if you haven't seen a real knife fighter, you may be in for a surprise

#125668 - 04/17/03 04:39 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Thanks for the kindly response, Sensei Lou. I appreciate it.

No, I have not studied Indonesian Knife works, I do not claim it's better or worse than Ninjitsu Knife work. Nor did I claim ninpo teaches effective knife defense. The only claim I made was that it is easy to conceal a knife during a fight, regardless of the grip, and that I gained that insight thru ninpo trainings.

Considering I have only been training with some commitment for 2 years, (started 1998, but was style hopping and not committed) I don't think I qualify to judge whether indonesian knife work is better than ninpo. If you've trained in both styles and say indonesian style is superior, then I will just believe in you... with a pinch of skepticism. I tend to think styles have strength and limitations, they have different focuses, some dojo have stronger practitioners than others, but IMHO none of these make good basis for blanket statement/ judgement about a style.

This argument started when Cato asks how budoka get so much prejudice. You brought up my statement and accused me of prejudice because of my blind faith in my instructor. I am only trying to explain to you that you have taken my statements out of context. I did not make any pre-judgement about what style is superior or inferior, therefore it is unfair to accuse me of prejudice. I only stated how I would response to a senario. You did not know where I base my response from, and assumed it came from my traditional budo training. It wasn't. It came from reading research articles written by a local street cop with street knife fight experiences. He also studied many more senarios from survillian camera recordings of LEO's response in knife encounters. He also take into account Edged weapons assault statistic found in UK, US, and special studies by the FBI.

I don't think I am prejudice. I have trained with karate students who won't hesitate to mock aikido in my face, because they don't know anything about it, to me, that's prejudice. I have trained with aikido people who would make condesending statements about the "brutal" nature of my karate dojo, to me, that's prejudice. They have only seen with their eyes and do not understand the art with experience or engagement, they pre-judged our training.

I might have been one of them a while ago, before I have any understanding of the two arts. Once I can see past the surface, I came to understand both styles have something to offer, and that they are more similar than they are different. I also become very aware of the danger of little knowledge.

Incidentally, students in both dojo who have defended my position, and defended my other art against the mockery, are those who have cross trained or have switched dojo before. Their experience in the past helps them to understand each style has something to offer. Because they too, were at some point, guilty of thinking "my style is the best", until they start training in a different dojo, and come to appreciate things that are different - not better or worse, but different.

Thank you for advices and concerns about knife encounters. I can only hope I never get trapped with a knife weilding aggressor. God helps me if he has trained in indonesian knife works.

Just another clearification, if it helps to ease your concern: again, I am not going to start attacking a knife wielder out of the blue. When I said I will fight aggressively, I meant when I am already engaged in the fight, the attack has been initiated, there is no getting out of it. DURING the fight, I claim I will choose to fight offensively instead of defensively, in hope that I will seize control before I lost too much function due to loss of blood, and before I receive the fatal cut.

yours sincerely, and without prejudice

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-17-2003).]

#125669 - 04/18/03 12:02 AM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Somebody famous (not that famous obviously, or I'd be able to remember their bloody name!!) once said "The best form of defence is attack". It is an idea that has some merit, in my view.

But then somebody else, probably equally as famous said "Karate ni sente nashi" which made it all a bit confusing.

To make matters worse, we also got "Go no sen" and "Sen no sen".

And as if that wasn't enough along came some bright spark to proclaim "Myo wa kyo-jitsu no kan ni ari" (The essence lies between attack and defence). Or at least, so I'm told.

If they can't sort it out, what chance do we have? How does it go again? Don't judge the art, judge the artist.

Personally I think it is impossible to pre-judge any encounter, each one must be taken as it develops. That makes it kida hard to say "never do this", or "always do that". If a chance for an attack presents itself should we not take it, gratefully? And if the attacker broasdcasts the attack shouldn't we be happy to let them overcommit and then counter?

Anyway, I think I have found the perfect solution to fighting a knife fighter.

It's called a gun. [IMG][/IMG]


#125670 - 04/18/03 09:44 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada



If you are gonna use Japanese quote, enter it in Japanese! I cant read the Roman lettered form!)


[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-20-2003).]

#125671 - 04/23/03 05:56 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Joe Jutsu Offline

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
A fellow student and I were discussing this topic after class the other day, and he told me a cool story about Aikido being very effective against an assailant with a knife. Now, I doubt the assailant was trained in these Philipino Knife arts or whatever has been discussed here, but let's face it, few people are.

Anyway, my friend told me a story about an Aikidoka who he believed to be Iwao Tamura Sensei (9th dan Shin Shin Toitso Aikido who recently passed away on April 5th, a truly sad day). The story goes, that he was being held up and potentially mugged by a man with a large knife. Granted, I doubt anyone here is a 9th dan (my apologies if you are) but his aiki principles did not fail him. He began a dialogue with the assailant, which buys you time. I'm not sure the whole long version of the story, but he started complimenting the man with the knife about what a nice knife he had. He actually got the assailant to hand him the knife to look at it! I guess the dumbass attacker thought that Tamaru Sensei was going to give the knife back, instead, he threw it in a dumpster, and began explaining to the man why he needed to start taking Aikido so he would not need to do stupid things like trying to mug people.

I agree with raccoon that it is important for sensei's who teach unarmed defences against bladed to be realistic with their students. My sensei did not give us the specific numbers that you provided raccoon, but he did explain that if you have to actually deal with someone with a knife, you are going to get cut, especially if the person with the knife knows what they are doing. Your best defence in this situation is a verbal one, and complying with what the person wants is often times your best bet. But sometimes, this just isn't an option, and we have to take a proactive role. I hope that none of us are in this situation ever, but as Lou Sensei said, if my friends and loved ones were in direct danger I believe that this peace-lovin' Aikidoka hippie type would be a force to reckon with. But again, I hope I NEVER have to find out.

Peace and plus Ki!

#125672 - 04/23/03 06:10 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Anyway, I think I have found the perfect solution to fighting a knife fighter.

It's called a gun. [IMG][/IMG]

I would challenge that "solution", Cato.

You do not have a self defense situation when you are not threatened. Standing 20 miles from someone with a knife, isn't exactly a self defense situation.

When you are in close quater, where knife is effective... I will take the trouble to re-cut-and-paste for you:
Within its range, a Knife:

* Never runs out of ammunition
* Never jams
* Never misfires
* Rarely misses target
* Cuts bone, tendon, muscles, arteries, veins with one thrust
* Can bring about sudden shock, pain, and extended wound channels
* It has better stopping capabilities
* Is psychological defeating
* Has superior concealment capabilities
* It occupies a permanent wound channel until extracted, at which time, if the blade is withdrawn from a lung, consciousness is rapidly lost

I don't know how you can be so sure that you have an advantage in a self defense knife encounter.


P.S. Joe, good post! I've heard a similar charming story from my iaido sensei about his kendo/iaido master, sometimes the knowledge that you cannot be harm, and the confidence you project, and the calmness it affords, is all that it takes.

#125673 - 04/23/03 06:18 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Joe Jutsu Offline

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Thanks raccoon, I thought it was a charming story too [IMG][/IMG].

I'd still be curious to find out a bit about Tomiki-ryu Aikido's knife work, if anybody has any experience...


#125674 - 04/24/03 04:58 AM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
How would a gun give me an advantage? Are you serious? How about this: If I point a gun at you and you think it is loaded and that I will shoot you, unless you are mentally deranged you will leave as fast as you can. I would consider that something of an advantage.

You're very keen to point out the plus sides to a knife, what about the limitations? Any knife is only as effective as the person using it, a knife can only cut within a very limited range, a knife can easily miss it's target (particularly as that target probably wouldn't be standing still), clothing offers quite considerable protection against a knife (did you know a folded newspaper will stop most knife thrust attacks getting through?), big knives are easily seen, small blades often break.

Yes, a knife is a formidable weapon to face, but let's keep a little perspective here. Would you be so afraid of a sharpened stick? That can do almost as much damage if you're stabbed with it.


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