FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 53 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
THEFOREVERMAN 3
royal 2
Dobbersky 2
MattJ 2
Marcus Charles 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#125646 - 04/10/03 03:36 PM Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Aikido is much vaunted for its techniques for dealing with bladed weapons. However, many people think there are no effective defences against such weapons, so is aikido kidding people and giving them a false sense of security?

Top
#125647 - 04/12/03 04:54 AM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Being the lowly 5th kyu that I am, I have to say I hold no confidence in my ability to disarm using aikido techniques.

I am guessing you don't read in the self defense/ general discussion board anymore, so you missed my post on my recent failure to answer a MA equipment store keeper's test to my defense against edged weapons ... and also the posts about "Edged Weapon Tactics and Counter Tactics" written by Darren.

I am sure O'Sensei will be fine when he is confronted with edged weapons. But how many of us can walk out in one piece, if modern aikido is the only training we have?

I think I have to agree with Darren, modern aikido as an edged weapon defense program is designed to get you killed. But then you are the copper, I am sure you know better than us civvies.

This brings me back to my other post - is our aikido curriculum adequte? Surely practicing the disarm techniques is important, but is it enough to just train your student in those movement? Are aikido instructors not responsible to bring facts/ statistics (ie lies ...) about edged weapons encounters to student's awareness? In the old days, samurai learns a lot more than just how to use a sword. They train to be aware, they study about social structure and when they are at risk, and what are their potential threats etc. Can we be in budo when we only pick up the techniques? Are the techniques alone enough to help us survive/ win real violence encounters? My answer is a grim no. But then you've probably figured out I am an aikido renegade, haven't you?

-raccoon



[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-12-2003).]

Top
#125648 - 04/13/03 05:09 PM Re: Bladed weapons
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I'll answer mainly because you have only 1 reply. The answer is yes, they are fooling themselves. We train in several different styles of knife fighting, any of which would give an Aikidoka fits. The problem is they don't know how to REALLY use the knife or how people really hold the knife. If someone doesn't know what hes doing and holds it sabre style with a simple thrust it may work. we always make 2 cuts, if we thrust we then slice. So if you get stabbed, you get stabbed and cut, a 2-way cut, harder to stop the bleeding that way. An Aiki person stops the thrust we come back with the slice, and they usually always get nailed You come up against some one who holds the knife ice pick, or hides the knife behind the forearm, and cut in "s" like cuts its almost impossible to stop, you have to practice someone attacking that way. Aiki doesn't and would be very subject to getting hurt. I just gave a seminar on how not to do things against a knife, the most prominent were 'X blocks" and tenkan like movements.The more room you give a seasoned knive fighter, and time you give him, the more trouble you are in. The Indonesian Knife techniques are so fast, and so troublesome, I think most techniques would fail, but Aiki techniques most certainly would because they don't account for secondary cuts or counter cuts. We train more on counter cutting than any other part of our knive training. we have just about addressed cuts to any manipulation that would try and take the knife away. So yes, Aikido believes its knive defense is good, but if you study knifework an aikidoka is easy prey.

Top
#125649 - 04/13/03 09:54 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
The problem is they don't know how to REALLY use the knife or how people really hold the knife. If someone doesn't know what hes doing and holds it sabre style with a simple thrust it may work.[/QUOTE]

hmmm... I am afraid I will have to disagree. I agree aikido might not be the best edged weapon defense program; but I disagree on the reasons why it isn't effective.
We are talking about self defense here; vast majority of edged weapons attacker will conceal their weapon until they decide to use it; which means you most likely won't see it coming. If he pulls it out mid way through the fight, chances are, you won't even notice you've been cut. I don't think the knowledge of the grip is going to help you very much at all.

Where I train aikido, we learn to disarm tanto held in numerous grips. But to be honest, I don't think it matters. The biggest problem I have with aikido type EWD is that:
1) they don't inform you the stat of modern edged weapons attacks. They don't inform you what to expect. It's rediculous to think you are proficient at EWD when you train by having 2 people standing in hanmi, and the nage knows the uke has a knife. AND the uke waits until the nage is ready before he strikes.
2) they don't tell you to EXPECT yourself to get cut. Because in most cases you will. Winning/ defending against edged weapon isn't about coming out without cuts; winning means coming out alive.
3) they don't take into account how slippery it gets when there is blood. Blood has the viscousity of baby oil, which is a lot more slippery than sweat. If you think controlling the wrist/forearm is difficult when your uke is sweaty, try it when it's covered with baby oil.
6) they don't take into account the knife hand can move faster than your eye can follow, especially when you are under stress/ adrenaline dump. Trying to catch the wrist/ forearm when someone is trying to kill you, is ludicrous. You simply don't have the same level of motor control when under stress.
7) again, they don't tell you most edged weapon attack comes out of the blue - attacker will conceal it until last moment, you don't have the luxury to spot it, see how it is held and then calculate which technique is best to use.
8) based on 1 - 7, technique that says "control the wrist/hand" isn't going to work. Unfortunatelly, most aikido EWD techniques focuses on controlling elbow down. I can only imagine the surprise and despair if the aikidoka is really counting on his wrist locks...

That said, I don't know how many aikidoka are that naive. Most people I train with are aware their skills aren't good enough to save their behind; we are lucky (?) enough to have 2 ex-Hell angels in our dojo, so they are quite relentless at "hinting" the reality, too.

Sorry for another long post.

-raccoon

Top
#125650 - 04/14/03 12:59 AM Re: Bladed weapons
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Sorry Cody,
I have to disagree again. If you study knife work, you will understand that the grip of how one holds the knife will dictate how he can use the knife. It is somewhat like studying body movement. You observe your attackers body posture, certain ways he will stand will dictate how he can move. If someone was backweighted in a certain stance, then you view another attacker in a 50-50 stance they will not be able to move in the same way. Certain cuts can't be made depending on how they grip the knife. Its hard to hide a knife in sabre grip. So you can see more of what is about to happen. If you can't see the knife, this is even more important that you know how one can use this. Knowing this and watching his body posture, you may be able to get lucky and avoid the first cut.
I know how you feel about your art, but you must ralize that in order to defend against a knife you need to know how to use it. Aikido in the dojo pretend to know about knife waza.They don't know or what can be done with a knife. Look at kicking. Aikidoka- don't kick so they don't know how to kick. Their kick defenses are horrible. Low kick an Aikidoka and see what happens, he will most likely try to catch it and his head is wide open. I once had a Nidan tell me I couldn't kick him, or kick and hit him. I was a lowly brown belt with some Kempo and Goju training. He decide to show everyone after class how Karate didn't work. He told me to go for it, I kicked low off my front leg and jabbed him with my front hand. They both connected. He told me this:
1. can't kick off the front leg, no body does
2. you can't punch off the front hand-no body does
3. Jabs don't count, only boxers do them
4. No body would kick then punch
5. you can't punch if I have your leg.
you can see his knowledge of Karate is limited as is his knowledge of what can be done. Same is true for knife techniques. Its a must to understand HOW one fights with a knife and you start with Grip.

Top
#125651 - 04/14/03 01:41 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
What is effective for defenses against bladed weapons then? Surely the problems/limitations described here are universal. A skilled knife fighter is likely to cut anyone, regardless of style and it is difficult to defend against a knife if you don't know it's there until it cuts you.

Budo

PS have we overlooked ma ai and zanshin?

Top
#125652 - 04/14/03 04:56 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Sensei Lou,

I am sorry, too; being the stubborn beginner from hell, I have to disagree once again. No disrespect though, honest [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

Ive studied a little bit of knife works when I was studying ninjutsu. (=_=;;okay, can you stop laffing now?) I guess its not the best example, because they do specialize in being stealthy and sneaky. But you will be surprised how easy it is to hide a sabre grip or to look like you are throwing an innocent punch/jab when you are in fact thrusting a sharp object.

If you are under survival stress reaction (SSR-a state where a perceived high threat stimulus automatically engages the sympathetic nervous system. ), you might not even realize you have been cut; many edged weapons attack survivors describe it as I thought I was being punched really hard. I didnt realize I was stabbed until I saw the blood dripping down the knife

You have some good points about observing body postures to anticipate how is he going to cut when you cant see the knife but that basically bring us back to the assumption that you already know he has a knife. Unfortunately, vast majority of people confronting edged weapons dont have that advantage. They think they are in a boxing match until they have been stabbed.

About aikidoka with knifes I have no doubt most of them are quite pathetically ignorant about how knifes are used. But I dont necessarily agree you need to be good at knife work to defend against a knife.

I think the kicking analogy might have been a little unfair. Average aikidoka are ill prepared to deal with kicks, not because they dont know how to throw kicks, but because nobody ever teach them how to defend themselves against kicks. To say aikidoka are inadequate in dealing with kickers because they dont know how to kick, is to challenge the principle of aikido are you saying you cannot be effective at defending yourself if you are not good at assault? If so, then you are basically challenging the whole premise of aikido, because there is no assaulting technique in the curriculum.

Right, back to edged weapons defense. I restate my argument: aikidoka are ill prepared to deal with edged weapons assaults, not because they dont know how to assault with a knife, but because techniques employed fail to take into account the less than ideal conditions during a street knife encounter. If you go back to my previous post, I think it is reasonable to conclude controlling the wrist isnt the best EWD stretagy.

Cato> Okay, I really dont know how to do this. I dont like talking down to people senior to me, and I am not allowed to tell you I am only an ignorant so and so, utilizing my right of free speech. Honestly, being a civvy, I feel ridiculous to tell a cop this is what you do when you encounter aggressions on the street

All that aside right, zanshin and maai. I think those are excellent points, which goes back to my question to all traditional budo system in modern world are we ignoring zanshin and other aspects of being a warrior, aspects aside from the pure fighting skills.

Zanshin is important. Listen to Velcro, or that clicp of the button that might indicate taking an edged weapon out of its carrier. Other gestures, such as hand hiding behind his back, up and down motion, especially around waist, should sent you alarms. Even without theses signals, I think its wise to make the assumption that whenever you are in a street fight, there is a possibility that you are dealing with concealed weapons, and so you should stay alert.

Maai is also extremely important. Knife is effective only at a certain range (unless its a throwing knife) If you stay within that range you are at a huge disadvantage. Especially if you are a copper and you have a gun Let me quote Darren, a local street cop with 16 years of street experience and specialize in police defense tactic:

[QUOTE]
Within its range, a Knife:

* Never runs out of ammunition
* Never jams
* Never misfires
* Rarely misses target
* Cuts bone, tendon, muscles, arteries, veins with one thrust
* Can bring about sudden shock, pain, and extended wound channels
* It has better stopping capabilities
* Is psychological defeating
* Has superior concealment capabilities
* It occupies a permanent wound channel until extracted, at which time, if the blade is withdrawn from a lung, consciousness is rapidly lost
[/QUOTE]

And while I am at it, let me cite his other studies on SSR (survival stress reaction)

[QUOTE]
Siddles definition of SSR as it relates to combat is: a state where a perceived high threat stimulus automatically engages the sympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system is an autonomic response process which, when activated, one has little control of. Why is SSR so important when it comes to combat/self protection? Because when activated, SSR has both a psychological and physiological effect to the body which could affect ones perception of threat in a negative way. So what are some of these effects according to Siddles research?

a) Increased Heart Rate:

We know that SSR is directly related to an increased heart rate
At 115 beats per minute (bpm) most people will lose fine complex motor skills such as finger dexterity, eye/hand co-ordination, multi-tasking becomes difficult
At 145 bpm, most people will lose complex motor skills (3 or more motor skills designed to work in unison)

b) Effects To Visual System:

The visual system is the primary sensory organ of the body for those of us that can see, due to the fact that the visual system sends information to the brain that is needed during combat/self-protection
At approximately 175 bpm, a person will experience an eye/lid lift, pupils will dilate and flatten. As this reaction takes place, a person will experience visual narrowing (commonly known as tunnel vision). This is why it is very common for a person to back up from a threat in order to get more information through this tunnel. I t is also at this point in time, that a person becomes binocular rather than monocular. This is why in Close Quarter Battle (CQB) shooting, I teach two eye binocular shooting rather than one eye aimed shooting.
At 175 bpm, visual tracking becomes difficult. This is very important when it comes to multiple threats. During multiples, the brain will want the visual system to stay with what it sees to be the primary threat. Once this threat has been neutralized, the brain and visual system will then find its next threat. This is commonly known as the light house effect. Studies have found that a person in SSR will experience on average about a 70% decrease in their visual field. This is one reason why in combat, we need to teach students to constantly be scanning their environment, looking for the second and third opponent.
At 175 bpm, it also becomes difficult to focus on close object. One of the first things to go under SSR is depth perception. A fighter WILL become far sighted rather than near sighted. This is why it is very common for people experiencing SSR to say that the threat was either closer or father away from where they actually were. Studies in SSR have shown that binocular fighting/shooting will improve ones depth perception by 20-30%

c) Effects To The Auditory System:

At approx 145 bpm, that part of the brain that hears, shuts down during SSR. This is one reason why it is not uncommon for fighters to say, I didnt hear that, I heard voices but I couldnt understand what they were saying, or I heard bits and pieces, and I didnt hear a gun shot.

d) Effects To The Brain:

At approx. 175 bpm, it is not uncommon for a person to have difficulty remembering what took place or what they did during a confrontation
This recall problem is known as Critical Stress Amnesia. After a critical incident, it is not uncommon for a person to only recall approx 30% of what happened in the first 24 hours; 50% in 48 hors; and 75-95 % in 72-100 hours.
At 185-220 bpm, most people will go into a state of hypervigilance, also commonly known as the deer in the headlights or brain fart mode. It is not uncommon for a person to continue doing things that are not effective (known as a feedback loop) or to show irrational behavior such as leaving cover. This is also the state in which people find themselves in when they describe that they can not move, yell, or scream. Once a person is caught in a state of hypervigilance, it is a downward spiral that is very tough to get out of. Once caught in a state of hypervigilance information on the threat is reduced to the brain, which leads to increased reaction time. This increased reaction time then leads to a heightened state of stress that further exacerbates hypervigilance.

e) Effects To Motor Skill performance

At approximately 115 bpm, fine/complex motor skills become less available/effective (pulling a trigger, handling a knife), but gross motor skills turn on and become optimized

So why is this information so important? Because Siddles research has found the higher the heart rate, the more SSR will affect ones perception of threat. It is this perception of threat that dictates ones response options.
[/QUOTE]

I think any school claiming to train you to deal with edged weapons and potentially life threatening situation has the responsibility of giving you these data. To not do is is negligent, which again goes back to my concern about budo in modern world (I know, I am trolling)

If you want to read the summarized article by Darren on edged weapons defense, please check out this thread (http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000119.html).

I also posted another article on the way of the street, street fight 101 at the same forum under this thread (http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000120.html)

Sorry if I didnt spoke in the most respectful manner. Its exam time and SSR is getting at me

Yours in aiki
-raccoon

Top
#125653 - 04/15/03 12:04 AM Re: Bladed weapons
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Jesus H. Christ, can you possiblly write any more........I can't deal with this. I haven't read this much since War and Peace. For a beginner you sure have alot to say, or ask, or comment.. My Dad use to say I had "verbal diarrhea", I think you got written diarrhea......Anyway, I will only address the kick issue with Aikido. You want to disagree fine, its ok, but I think you need to open up and think this out for a minute. When you practice kick defense in the Aikido dojo are the kicks very good? Now honestly tell me that the kicks in your Aiki dojo are on the same level as your Karate dojo. You know they are not. So when you defend against a person who doesn't know how to kick to begin with, how can you practice effectively. Everyone in my Aiki dojo thought they knew how to kick, none however could kick high enough(maybe because of the hakama)to work on the kicks. All kicks were front snap kicks. My son and I were the only ones who could kick(because of our Kempo background)above the waist. They always used us as uke, 10 Black Belts in class but the little blue belts were the uke. Problem was when we kicked they couldn't deal with them because they never practices against someone who could truly kick.We were told to kick slow so the technique could be done. Many times we would do a kick and hold it in position for them to do technique. Kind of ridiculous isn't it. I whole heartedly believe the more you know about something the easier it is to defend against something. Do a crescent kick to an Aikido person and if he sees the initial kick movement and goes to tenkan, an outside crescent will hit him. He needs to know how kicks work to defend against them. Same for strike, ever seen Aiki people handle hooks, jabs crosses or uppercuts, very rarely and you know why, because they don't practice them and when or if they do them, its not done correctly. In Aikido how many different punches do you deal with? How many do you use in Karate? If by the nature of Aiki that they won't learn to kick or use other attacks, they will never be able to recreate the real attack only pretend.

Top
#125654 - 04/15/03 12:46 AM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Sense Lou,

I am sure we can agree to disagree =)

BTW, about verbal / keyboard diarrhea...

I was taught, "those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know" I sure hope when I am no longer a beginner, I won't talk as much [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

-raccoon

Top
#125655 - 04/15/03 04:42 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Kicking in combat? Not to be recommended if you ask me. I've seen countless fights and I've yet to see an effective kick above the waist in any of them. The problem is that unless your kick finishes the encounter there and then (and let's face it, most of them wouldn't) you are extremely vulnerable to a counter.

The only way I've seen to deal with a good kicker is to avoid their kicks. You can't effectively block a strong kick, legs are so much more powerfull than arms. I think aikido is one of the best arts for learning how to avoid an attack, and so by default it also teaches how to deal with a kick.

I don't subscribe to the idea that you need to be good at something to be effective in defending it as well. Aikido teaches us to aviod attacks rather than try to defend every one. Can aikidoka defend against kicks? Of course they can, just like raccoon said, by avoiding them.

Now raccoon. I agree with almost everything your friend says, but I fail to see how that helps to defend against knife attacks. Perhaps I missed something?

Budo

Top
#125656 - 04/15/03 04:54 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Cato> Sorry, in the excitement of copying and pasting, I managed to forget the most import point [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Am I the only one to find it horrifying to see someone online from rl? I guess I always thought of them as two different world... anyway, Darren is introduced to this site now and he might not be very happy about my pasting his stuff. I am no expert in street combat, but from his writing, it seems he recommands controlling the "delivery system", which is the arm (above the shoulder). I don't know the details, and I can only hope coppers have specific trainings in that area?

BTW, if I have any harmful intension in the fight... I would say, one of the best part to kick is the head! Of course, that's only after the person falls down onto the ground...

I think it's good to have training in pulling different tricks, you might be surprised to find just the right occasion to throw a high kick... but all in all, I agree, most fancy kicks are quite unsuitable in anywhere other than the training hall.


yours in Aiki
-raccoon

Top
#125657 - 04/15/03 05:53 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Okay, what's rl?

I think there are many problems inherent with kicks. For the sake of brevity I'll just mention one here - witness perception. Overlook it if you want; it's your liberty your playing with, not mine.

Budo

Top
#125658 - 04/15/03 06:05 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
rl = real life, Cato. Remember I e-mailed you aboud "changes in training"? Switching focus away from traditional style to modern "reality oriented" street style combats? The instructor of that program, Darren, is introduced to this site.

I am sure what you said about kicking a person in the head is right, I can easily get lost in the legal jungle. I am simply arguing that kick can be effective street/ real world techniques and shouldn't be overlooked. Honestly, do you really think a pacifist raccoon will kick someone on the head?

yours in aiki
-raccoon

Top
#125659 - 04/16/03 01:49 AM Re: Bladed weapons
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I am not going to continue with the debate as I think it all depends on your training, prejudices in training, and past experiences. Those who train in Aiki and going to see something different than one who trains in Aiki and Karate, and they differently than a one who has say Kempo and Jujutsu . It all depends on how one sees it. A TKD student swear kicking to the head is effective. A Brazillian Jujutsuist loves the high kicks for takedowns. Shotokan and their one punch one kill, is a Kung Fu persons favorite. It all depends on where your training has taken you. I Cody's case, I would have thought there would have been a definite conflict between training in Karate and Aikido. The Karate style being more fighting and tournament oriented, Aikido more traditional. Maybe that is why she sees the positives from both sides, and not the negatives, but thats ok too. I think we all will agree that we are going to see things differently, and thats what makes this fun. From my point of view, if I want to practice my kicking defenses, I am going to get a Karate kicker not an Aikidoka to practice with, same as my knife defenses, I will train with a knife fighter, it just feeps your skills honed a bit tighter.

Top
#125660 - 04/16/03 04:55 AM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Once again Lou sums it up nicely, wwe all like to think our arts are the best for everything. But I'm going to throw in another spanner. Where do our prejudices come from? Are they just there, or are they borne out of our experiences?

I think kicking in a fight is too risky to consider, and I think these spinning, backflipping, jumping 10 feet in the air, bouncing up and down, standing on you head double leg fancy kicks are just plain stupid. Particulaly if you hope to defend yourself against a knife.

Budo

Top
#125661 - 04/16/03 05:56 AM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
we all like to think our arts are the best for everything. But I'm going to throw in another spanner. Where do our prejudices come from? Are they just there, or are they borne out of our experiences?[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I think those who think "my art is best for everything" are those who have no experience nor understanding in any system other their own. I know I don't think aikido is best, nor do I think karate is best. I think every art has something to offer... well, every art except for taebo, maybe.

[QUOTE]I think kicking in a fight is too risky to consider, and I think these spinning, backflipping, jumping 10 feet in the air, bouncing up and down, standing on you head double leg fancy kicks are just plain stupid. Particulaly if you hope to defend yourself against a knife.[/QUOTE]

I think it's silly to impose limit on what technique you can use. I am sure there is a right moment for almost every technique... maybe not that backward flipping axe kick, but certainly some kicks are useful in the real world. Kick to the shin, kick to the quad, kick to the knee, kick to the nuts ... low roundhouse is my specialty, and I don't see how it is a bad idea to use it on the street.

In EWD, IMHO, if you can't run away, your best bet is to keep the knife wielder occupied with defending himself. Which means stay offensive. I think a good combination of punches and kicks is a good place to start. Leg is generally longer than arm, so hopefully you can use it to keep your vital body part out of range. Of course, I never tried this out in real defense situations, so I wouldn't know. But I can't think of any reasons why low kick shouldn't be thrown. In fact, I think you are much more vulnerable if you limit your weapons to your arms.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-16-2003).]

Top
#125662 - 04/16/03 01:58 PM Re: Bladed weapons
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Oooops, I may have given out a wrong impression here. I am no way talking about kicking a person with a knife. You never kick someone with a weapon. What I was trying to point
out is the lack of other skills that make an Aikidoka a poor attacker in kicking techniques and knife techniques.
Racoon you are really off when you say you should never limit techniques in a fight. try kicking someone in the head in a crowed bar, loaded with beer on the floor, kicking is obsurd in this scenario. Or with a weapon, you never want to kick, if you do you will lose a leg. I don't want to pick on you, but you really need to see your technique work for real, before you say what will and won't work. I did security for several people and you can't strike them, you just can't, so you need to go to the well with something else. To say something works without having it tested is fooling yourself.
I think one needs to realize that some information is just not good. You may believe what was told you is good, but it may not be. Raccon, your agressive nature with a knife fighter will get you killed. You need to be strictly defense before he attacks. I really think your view of knife fighting through your Ninjitsu is way off. A street knive fighter, will cut you every time you move, you attack and you will be sliced like a cheap ham. Indonesian knive fighters are the closest thing to a street fighter with a knife. You can't attack someone with a knive, you will die. Studying knife technique we train to move on the first movement. You must be defensive and move when he does, any movement before you are going to get seriously hurt. Come at me when I have a blade and you don't is silly and DANGEROUS. You may not want to hear this, we all want to believe what we know is best as Cato said, but sometimes this is not the case. Someone has given you some bad information.
Cato........where does prejudice come from? Who the hell knows. Most of the time its something you pick up from your parents or peers. I am quessing alot of it we pick up from our Sensei's and other influences in the dojo. In the case with Racoon, I think its information recieved from a source that is respected and deemed to be true because of where the information came from. There are many great people with great information, problem is many times its theory passed down from one to another and never tried. My greatest example is "x" blocks. I believed for years the best way to stop knife attacks were with "x" blocks. Good information I thought, and when I was told it was dangerous by outsiders, I just blew it off. Then I learned some knife techniques, and learned how to cut someone when they 'x' blocked. It takes a second to slit someone's wrist. The process continues as I share this knowldege with a student who tells me(her prejudice) that I could never cut her from an 'x' block. her prejudice came from her Shihan who she felt knew more than me. Then the Sensei(Guru) who taught me my knife technique comes to the dojo for a seminar, he tells her the same thing and she believes it. I think we need to be open to information, yet critical of the same information, analyze the information, and try to work the information, to see if its functional. Prejudices just exist I think,its inate in what we do, lockers argue with strikers, strikers with grapplers, everyone believes what they have HAS to be right. I find that it sure is not the case,much information out there is good for one, but not for another.

Top
#125663 - 04/16/03 02:44 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I have never witnessed this or even seen videos, but it's my understanding that Tomiki-ryu Aikido has competitions where uke takes a tanto with chalk on the blade and does his (or her) damndest to mark nage's gi, while nage gets points for executing a throw. Obviously, nage is at a disadvantage here, but what I was really wondering is are the tanto attacks unrealistic, or are the Aikidoka in this style trained in knife work? Thanks

Joe Jutsu

Top
#125664 - 04/16/03 02:55 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
whoa, easy Sensei Lou, I never said its a good idea to "kick someone in the head in a crowed bar, loaded with beer on the floor", you totally misinterpreted what I said!

I said you shouldn't limit what technique you can use in a real fight, but it still has to suit the situation. There are illegitimate situations to throw high kicks, just like there are bad time to use just about any technique. I think it's silly to throw away a tools that you have. Just because there are many occations when it's stupid to throw high kicks, doesn't mean there is NEVER a good time to do so. Ever heard of "never say never"?

Hmm, fooling myself. I hope it's only your opinion. If it's my comment about low kicks you are referring to, I did not claim it will or will not work. I said I don't see any reason why I can't use low kicks in a street fight. Cato says kicking in a fight is too risky to even consider, I disagree and state so. It's that simple.

And about the ninjitsu knife work, it's funny how you pre-judge it to be crap before you even see it. I have no doubt you are good at indonesia knife work, but I would be skeptical about your comments about "bad info" in ninjitsu. Have you trained in it? Or did you just say it based on my above response? Now, don't tell me it's a blanket statement about all ninjitsu. When I mentioned the ninjitsu knife work, I was only trying to tell you there are ways to conceal a knife, regardless of what grip you use. I was only a visiting student at the ninpo dojo and did not learn any edged weapon defense from the school. FYI, I didn't learn EWD from any traditional school other than aikido. My above response was based on what I learnt from a local street cop who have won 4 real street knife defense and had someone died in his arm as a result of failure to deal with edged weapon properly. Naturally I believe in him when he says you won't see it coming and don't have time to analyse what grip he uses etc.

I do not claim ninjitsu is the best knife work out there, nor do I claim "what I say is the best way to deal with Edged Weapons". In case you missed it, let me point out it's only my humble opinion.

It's true that I have no street experience, but to say "everything you said is invalid because you haven't tested it in person", is not far from ad hominum argument, no?

I maintain my stance about staying aggressive during a edged weapon defense. To clearify a few things, I thought it was pretty obvious we are talking about self defense encounter in here. AM I going to start attacking someone when he is walking around with a knife? No! We are talking about when you are being attacked and running away isn't an option.
As long as we are at it, the person with weapon is going to have advantage over me, If running away isn't an option, then the best I can do is to take him out as fast as possible. I expect myself to get cut, the point is to win before he has chance to give me the fatal cut. If I stay defensive, he has more chance and more time to stay offensive, which works against me.

Give me concrete example and reasons why your approach is "better", and I am willing to change my mind. As always I am only stating my opinions. I am in no way claiming my style/training is the best. I don't see how stating my opinion about how I will handle a situation is prejudice. To prejudge your style is better and ninjitsu knife work is crap before you even see it, on the other hands, fit my definition of prejudice.


-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-16-2003).]

Top
#125665 - 04/16/03 08:43 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Let me make a couple of observations if I may...

If I was unfortunate enough to come up against even an average punter with a knife I would have a serious problem. If that punter turned out to be a skilled knife fighter, well then I'm knackered really, aren't I? Sometimes there are no answers.

I think that to try to take the initiative against a knife attack is very risky indeed, and to wait for him/her to attack is also very risky indeed. So far as I can see the best possible defence I can use is to keep out of reach. Aikido teaches this at least as well as any other MA, and better than most.

Now before you all start with the "what if's" I will conceed here and now that I have no doubt there are a multitude of situations wherein keeping out of reach is not possible, or the knife has been concealed. In these scenarios the only thing that will save you is luck.

Clearly you improve your chances if you employ your best techniques. For some of us that may mean kicking the attacker, others might want to attack first whilst some of us, myself included, would prefer to defend an attack. We each of us train to defend in different ways, that doesn't change once a knife is added to the equation.

There are no sure fire ways to defend against a knife, so ultimately it comes down to your preference as to your most proficient techniques. We all have to do what we do best, 'cos that's the only way we stand any chance of not being skewered.

Budo (without prejudice [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG])

Top
#125666 - 04/16/03 08:49 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Well said Cato!

-raccoon (also without prejudice)

Top
#125667 - 04/17/03 03:13 PM Re: Bladed weapons
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Raccon.........I think someone has fallen off the wrong side of the college couch. I was going to answer this last night, but had a migraine from reading your last post! However, by this time you should know that I wouldn't take pot shots at a style without having viewed it or practiced in it. I trained with a Ninjitsu student of Stephen Haines, the 'Guru" of Ninjitsu. His student and I traded techniques and discussed much about Ninjitsu. It was this Sensei who told me that the main purpose of Ninjitsu is to preserve the style, that it had not evolved with society and didn't want to. It is much like Iaido, still practiced as it was, but not necessarily useful. You can make Ninjitsu work, but again the purpose is that of preservation. It was this Sensei who said their knife work was limited at best, and would not bode well on the street today. It uses basic knife thrusts, that are easily dealt with. He was the one who said study with a knife fighter to learn how to defend against it. Also he said the same thing about kicking. Train with a person who knows how to kick, to practice your defense against, not someone who barely knows how to do so. So much for the Ninja lesson, my point and think what you will, have you ever seen Indonesian knife art.Its not a question of my style as I have no rank in it, I learned for the sake of learning knife techniques because they are the best in my mind. So asking if I have seen Ninjitsu, have you seen any Indonesian arts. Can't really compare something if you haven't. We actually wear fencing masks so we can cut to the face. Gloves,elbow pads and a mask and we use metal knives, not wooden play toys.If you never have had a blade wizzing at your face or striking you there, you really can't get the feel of knife fighting. We go complete freestyle, cutting limbs and slashing face. The biggest respect I have is for a knife. I think you should reconsider your stand about getting aggressive with a knife fighter. I study body movement with empty hands and knife fighting . You will not believe how open you are when you attack. If you were to attack one of my students empty hands, and they had a knife, you initiated, you would die. Hard to read, but that is why I suggest you review your stand on this. Knives are serious business, and if you haven't seen a real knife fighter, you may be in for a surprise

Top
#125668 - 04/17/03 04:39 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Thanks for the kindly response, Sensei Lou. I appreciate it.

No, I have not studied Indonesian Knife works, I do not claim it's better or worse than Ninjitsu Knife work. Nor did I claim ninpo teaches effective knife defense. The only claim I made was that it is easy to conceal a knife during a fight, regardless of the grip, and that I gained that insight thru ninpo trainings.

Considering I have only been training with some commitment for 2 years, (started 1998, but was style hopping and not committed) I don't think I qualify to judge whether indonesian knife work is better than ninpo. If you've trained in both styles and say indonesian style is superior, then I will just believe in you... with a pinch of skepticism. I tend to think styles have strength and limitations, they have different focuses, some dojo have stronger practitioners than others, but IMHO none of these make good basis for blanket statement/ judgement about a style.

This argument started when Cato asks how budoka get so much prejudice. You brought up my statement and accused me of prejudice because of my blind faith in my instructor. I am only trying to explain to you that you have taken my statements out of context. I did not make any pre-judgement about what style is superior or inferior, therefore it is unfair to accuse me of prejudice. I only stated how I would response to a senario. You did not know where I base my response from, and assumed it came from my traditional budo training. It wasn't. It came from reading research articles written by a local street cop with street knife fight experiences. He also studied many more senarios from survillian camera recordings of LEO's response in knife encounters. He also take into account Edged weapons assault statistic found in UK, US, and special studies by the FBI.

I don't think I am prejudice. I have trained with karate students who won't hesitate to mock aikido in my face, because they don't know anything about it, to me, that's prejudice. I have trained with aikido people who would make condesending statements about the "brutal" nature of my karate dojo, to me, that's prejudice. They have only seen with their eyes and do not understand the art with experience or engagement, they pre-judged our training.

I might have been one of them a while ago, before I have any understanding of the two arts. Once I can see past the surface, I came to understand both styles have something to offer, and that they are more similar than they are different. I also become very aware of the danger of little knowledge.

Incidentally, students in both dojo who have defended my position, and defended my other art against the mockery, are those who have cross trained or have switched dojo before. Their experience in the past helps them to understand each style has something to offer. Because they too, were at some point, guilty of thinking "my style is the best", until they start training in a different dojo, and come to appreciate things that are different - not better or worse, but different.

Thank you for advices and concerns about knife encounters. I can only hope I never get trapped with a knife weilding aggressor. God helps me if he has trained in indonesian knife works.

Just another clearification, if it helps to ease your concern: again, I am not going to start attacking a knife wielder out of the blue. When I said I will fight aggressively, I meant when I am already engaged in the fight, the attack has been initiated, there is no getting out of it. DURING the fight, I claim I will choose to fight offensively instead of defensively, in hope that I will seize control before I lost too much function due to loss of blood, and before I receive the fatal cut.

yours sincerely, and without prejudice
-Cody

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-17-2003).]

Top
#125669 - 04/18/03 12:02 AM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Somebody famous (not that famous obviously, or I'd be able to remember their bloody name!!) once said "The best form of defence is attack". It is an idea that has some merit, in my view.

But then somebody else, probably equally as famous said "Karate ni sente nashi" which made it all a bit confusing.

To make matters worse, we also got "Go no sen" and "Sen no sen".

And as if that wasn't enough along came some bright spark to proclaim "Myo wa kyo-jitsu no kan ni ari" (The essence lies between attack and defence). Or at least, so I'm told.

If they can't sort it out, what chance do we have? How does it go again? Don't judge the art, judge the artist.

Personally I think it is impossible to pre-judge any encounter, each one must be taken as it develops. That makes it kida hard to say "never do this", or "always do that". If a chance for an attack presents itself should we not take it, gratefully? And if the attacker broasdcasts the attack shouldn't we be happy to let them overcommit and then counter?

Anyway, I think I have found the perfect solution to fighting a knife fighter.

It's called a gun. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo

Top
#125670 - 04/18/03 09:44 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
IHňISRǂ߂ȂȂIH

C܂傤...

CatolA{̂Ƃ킴ȂA{œ͂ĂB}΂肶Aǂ߂ȂI

If you are gonna use Japanese quote, enter it in Japanese! I cant read the Roman lettered form!)

(Budo)


[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-20-2003).]

Top
#125671 - 04/23/03 05:56 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
A fellow student and I were discussing this topic after class the other day, and he told me a cool story about Aikido being very effective against an assailant with a knife. Now, I doubt the assailant was trained in these Philipino Knife arts or whatever has been discussed here, but let's face it, few people are.

Anyway, my friend told me a story about an Aikidoka who he believed to be Iwao Tamura Sensei (9th dan Shin Shin Toitso Aikido who recently passed away on April 5th, a truly sad day). The story goes, that he was being held up and potentially mugged by a man with a large knife. Granted, I doubt anyone here is a 9th dan (my apologies if you are) but his aiki principles did not fail him. He began a dialogue with the assailant, which buys you time. I'm not sure the whole long version of the story, but he started complimenting the man with the knife about what a nice knife he had. He actually got the assailant to hand him the knife to look at it! I guess the dumbass attacker thought that Tamaru Sensei was going to give the knife back, instead, he threw it in a dumpster, and began explaining to the man why he needed to start taking Aikido so he would not need to do stupid things like trying to mug people.

I agree with raccoon that it is important for sensei's who teach unarmed defences against bladed to be realistic with their students. My sensei did not give us the specific numbers that you provided raccoon, but he did explain that if you have to actually deal with someone with a knife, you are going to get cut, especially if the person with the knife knows what they are doing. Your best defence in this situation is a verbal one, and complying with what the person wants is often times your best bet. But sometimes, this just isn't an option, and we have to take a proactive role. I hope that none of us are in this situation ever, but as Lou Sensei said, if my friends and loved ones were in direct danger I believe that this peace-lovin' Aikidoka hippie type would be a force to reckon with. But again, I hope I NEVER have to find out.

Peace and plus Ki!

Top
#125672 - 04/23/03 06:10 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Anyway, I think I have found the perfect solution to fighting a knife fighter.

It's called a gun. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

I would challenge that "solution", Cato.

You do not have a self defense situation when you are not threatened. Standing 20 miles from someone with a knife, isn't exactly a self defense situation.

When you are in close quater, where knife is effective... I will take the trouble to re-cut-and-paste for you:
Within its range, a Knife:

* Never runs out of ammunition
* Never jams
* Never misfires
* Rarely misses target
* Cuts bone, tendon, muscles, arteries, veins with one thrust
* Can bring about sudden shock, pain, and extended wound channels
* It has better stopping capabilities
* Is psychological defeating
* Has superior concealment capabilities
* It occupies a permanent wound channel until extracted, at which time, if the blade is withdrawn from a lung, consciousness is rapidly lost

I don't know how you can be so sure that you have an advantage in a self defense knife encounter.

-raccoon

P.S. Joe, good post! I've heard a similar charming story from my iaido sensei about his kendo/iaido master, sometimes the knowledge that you cannot be harm, and the confidence you project, and the calmness it affords, is all that it takes.

Top
#125673 - 04/23/03 06:18 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Thanks raccoon, I thought it was a charming story too [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].

I'd still be curious to find out a bit about Tomiki-ryu Aikido's knife work, if anybody has any experience...

Joe

Top
#125674 - 04/24/03 04:58 AM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
How would a gun give me an advantage? Are you serious? How about this: If I point a gun at you and you think it is loaded and that I will shoot you, unless you are mentally deranged you will leave as fast as you can. I would consider that something of an advantage.

You're very keen to point out the plus sides to a knife, what about the limitations? Any knife is only as effective as the person using it, a knife can only cut within a very limited range, a knife can easily miss it's target (particularly as that target probably wouldn't be standing still), clothing offers quite considerable protection against a knife (did you know a folded newspaper will stop most knife thrust attacks getting through?), big knives are easily seen, small blades often break.

Yes, a knife is a formidable weapon to face, but let's keep a little perspective here. Would you be so afraid of a sharpened stick? That can do almost as much damage if you're stabbed with it.

Budo

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga