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#125656 - 04/15/03 04:54 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Cato> Sorry, in the excitement of copying and pasting, I managed to forget the most import point [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Am I the only one to find it horrifying to see someone online from rl? I guess I always thought of them as two different world... anyway, Darren is introduced to this site now and he might not be very happy about my pasting his stuff. I am no expert in street combat, but from his writing, it seems he recommands controlling the "delivery system", which is the arm (above the shoulder). I don't know the details, and I can only hope coppers have specific trainings in that area?

BTW, if I have any harmful intension in the fight... I would say, one of the best part to kick is the head! Of course, that's only after the person falls down onto the ground...

I think it's good to have training in pulling different tricks, you might be surprised to find just the right occasion to throw a high kick... but all in all, I agree, most fancy kicks are quite unsuitable in anywhere other than the training hall.


yours in Aiki
-raccoon

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#125657 - 04/15/03 05:53 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Okay, what's rl?

I think there are many problems inherent with kicks. For the sake of brevity I'll just mention one here - witness perception. Overlook it if you want; it's your liberty your playing with, not mine.

Budo

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#125658 - 04/15/03 06:05 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
rl = real life, Cato. Remember I e-mailed you aboud "changes in training"? Switching focus away from traditional style to modern "reality oriented" street style combats? The instructor of that program, Darren, is introduced to this site.

I am sure what you said about kicking a person in the head is right, I can easily get lost in the legal jungle. I am simply arguing that kick can be effective street/ real world techniques and shouldn't be overlooked. Honestly, do you really think a pacifist raccoon will kick someone on the head?

yours in aiki
-raccoon

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#125659 - 04/16/03 01:49 AM Re: Bladed weapons
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I am not going to continue with the debate as I think it all depends on your training, prejudices in training, and past experiences. Those who train in Aiki and going to see something different than one who trains in Aiki and Karate, and they differently than a one who has say Kempo and Jujutsu . It all depends on how one sees it. A TKD student swear kicking to the head is effective. A Brazillian Jujutsuist loves the high kicks for takedowns. Shotokan and their one punch one kill, is a Kung Fu persons favorite. It all depends on where your training has taken you. I Cody's case, I would have thought there would have been a definite conflict between training in Karate and Aikido. The Karate style being more fighting and tournament oriented, Aikido more traditional. Maybe that is why she sees the positives from both sides, and not the negatives, but thats ok too. I think we all will agree that we are going to see things differently, and thats what makes this fun. From my point of view, if I want to practice my kicking defenses, I am going to get a Karate kicker not an Aikidoka to practice with, same as my knife defenses, I will train with a knife fighter, it just feeps your skills honed a bit tighter.

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#125660 - 04/16/03 04:55 AM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Once again Lou sums it up nicely, wwe all like to think our arts are the best for everything. But I'm going to throw in another spanner. Where do our prejudices come from? Are they just there, or are they borne out of our experiences?

I think kicking in a fight is too risky to consider, and I think these spinning, backflipping, jumping 10 feet in the air, bouncing up and down, standing on you head double leg fancy kicks are just plain stupid. Particulaly if you hope to defend yourself against a knife.

Budo

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#125661 - 04/16/03 05:56 AM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
we all like to think our arts are the best for everything. But I'm going to throw in another spanner. Where do our prejudices come from? Are they just there, or are they borne out of our experiences?[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I think those who think "my art is best for everything" are those who have no experience nor understanding in any system other their own. I know I don't think aikido is best, nor do I think karate is best. I think every art has something to offer... well, every art except for taebo, maybe.

[QUOTE]I think kicking in a fight is too risky to consider, and I think these spinning, backflipping, jumping 10 feet in the air, bouncing up and down, standing on you head double leg fancy kicks are just plain stupid. Particulaly if you hope to defend yourself against a knife.[/QUOTE]

I think it's silly to impose limit on what technique you can use. I am sure there is a right moment for almost every technique... maybe not that backward flipping axe kick, but certainly some kicks are useful in the real world. Kick to the shin, kick to the quad, kick to the knee, kick to the nuts ... low roundhouse is my specialty, and I don't see how it is a bad idea to use it on the street.

In EWD, IMHO, if you can't run away, your best bet is to keep the knife wielder occupied with defending himself. Which means stay offensive. I think a good combination of punches and kicks is a good place to start. Leg is generally longer than arm, so hopefully you can use it to keep your vital body part out of range. Of course, I never tried this out in real defense situations, so I wouldn't know. But I can't think of any reasons why low kick shouldn't be thrown. In fact, I think you are much more vulnerable if you limit your weapons to your arms.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-16-2003).]

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#125662 - 04/16/03 01:58 PM Re: Bladed weapons
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Oooops, I may have given out a wrong impression here. I am no way talking about kicking a person with a knife. You never kick someone with a weapon. What I was trying to point
out is the lack of other skills that make an Aikidoka a poor attacker in kicking techniques and knife techniques.
Racoon you are really off when you say you should never limit techniques in a fight. try kicking someone in the head in a crowed bar, loaded with beer on the floor, kicking is obsurd in this scenario. Or with a weapon, you never want to kick, if you do you will lose a leg. I don't want to pick on you, but you really need to see your technique work for real, before you say what will and won't work. I did security for several people and you can't strike them, you just can't, so you need to go to the well with something else. To say something works without having it tested is fooling yourself.
I think one needs to realize that some information is just not good. You may believe what was told you is good, but it may not be. Raccon, your agressive nature with a knife fighter will get you killed. You need to be strictly defense before he attacks. I really think your view of knife fighting through your Ninjitsu is way off. A street knive fighter, will cut you every time you move, you attack and you will be sliced like a cheap ham. Indonesian knive fighters are the closest thing to a street fighter with a knife. You can't attack someone with a knive, you will die. Studying knife technique we train to move on the first movement. You must be defensive and move when he does, any movement before you are going to get seriously hurt. Come at me when I have a blade and you don't is silly and DANGEROUS. You may not want to hear this, we all want to believe what we know is best as Cato said, but sometimes this is not the case. Someone has given you some bad information.
Cato........where does prejudice come from? Who the hell knows. Most of the time its something you pick up from your parents or peers. I am quessing alot of it we pick up from our Sensei's and other influences in the dojo. In the case with Racoon, I think its information recieved from a source that is respected and deemed to be true because of where the information came from. There are many great people with great information, problem is many times its theory passed down from one to another and never tried. My greatest example is "x" blocks. I believed for years the best way to stop knife attacks were with "x" blocks. Good information I thought, and when I was told it was dangerous by outsiders, I just blew it off. Then I learned some knife techniques, and learned how to cut someone when they 'x' blocked. It takes a second to slit someone's wrist. The process continues as I share this knowldege with a student who tells me(her prejudice) that I could never cut her from an 'x' block. her prejudice came from her Shihan who she felt knew more than me. Then the Sensei(Guru) who taught me my knife technique comes to the dojo for a seminar, he tells her the same thing and she believes it. I think we need to be open to information, yet critical of the same information, analyze the information, and try to work the information, to see if its functional. Prejudices just exist I think,its inate in what we do, lockers argue with strikers, strikers with grapplers, everyone believes what they have HAS to be right. I find that it sure is not the case,much information out there is good for one, but not for another.

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#125663 - 04/16/03 02:44 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I have never witnessed this or even seen videos, but it's my understanding that Tomiki-ryu Aikido has competitions where uke takes a tanto with chalk on the blade and does his (or her) damndest to mark nage's gi, while nage gets points for executing a throw. Obviously, nage is at a disadvantage here, but what I was really wondering is are the tanto attacks unrealistic, or are the Aikidoka in this style trained in knife work? Thanks

Joe Jutsu

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#125664 - 04/16/03 02:55 PM Re: Bladed weapons
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
whoa, easy Sensei Lou, I never said its a good idea to "kick someone in the head in a crowed bar, loaded with beer on the floor", you totally misinterpreted what I said!

I said you shouldn't limit what technique you can use in a real fight, but it still has to suit the situation. There are illegitimate situations to throw high kicks, just like there are bad time to use just about any technique. I think it's silly to throw away a tools that you have. Just because there are many occations when it's stupid to throw high kicks, doesn't mean there is NEVER a good time to do so. Ever heard of "never say never"?

Hmm, fooling myself. I hope it's only your opinion. If it's my comment about low kicks you are referring to, I did not claim it will or will not work. I said I don't see any reason why I can't use low kicks in a street fight. Cato says kicking in a fight is too risky to even consider, I disagree and state so. It's that simple.

And about the ninjitsu knife work, it's funny how you pre-judge it to be crap before you even see it. I have no doubt you are good at indonesia knife work, but I would be skeptical about your comments about "bad info" in ninjitsu. Have you trained in it? Or did you just say it based on my above response? Now, don't tell me it's a blanket statement about all ninjitsu. When I mentioned the ninjitsu knife work, I was only trying to tell you there are ways to conceal a knife, regardless of what grip you use. I was only a visiting student at the ninpo dojo and did not learn any edged weapon defense from the school. FYI, I didn't learn EWD from any traditional school other than aikido. My above response was based on what I learnt from a local street cop who have won 4 real street knife defense and had someone died in his arm as a result of failure to deal with edged weapon properly. Naturally I believe in him when he says you won't see it coming and don't have time to analyse what grip he uses etc.

I do not claim ninjitsu is the best knife work out there, nor do I claim "what I say is the best way to deal with Edged Weapons". In case you missed it, let me point out it's only my humble opinion.

It's true that I have no street experience, but to say "everything you said is invalid because you haven't tested it in person", is not far from ad hominum argument, no?

I maintain my stance about staying aggressive during a edged weapon defense. To clearify a few things, I thought it was pretty obvious we are talking about self defense encounter in here. AM I going to start attacking someone when he is walking around with a knife? No! We are talking about when you are being attacked and running away isn't an option.
As long as we are at it, the person with weapon is going to have advantage over me, If running away isn't an option, then the best I can do is to take him out as fast as possible. I expect myself to get cut, the point is to win before he has chance to give me the fatal cut. If I stay defensive, he has more chance and more time to stay offensive, which works against me.

Give me concrete example and reasons why your approach is "better", and I am willing to change my mind. As always I am only stating my opinions. I am in no way claiming my style/training is the best. I don't see how stating my opinion about how I will handle a situation is prejudice. To prejudge your style is better and ninjitsu knife work is crap before you even see it, on the other hands, fit my definition of prejudice.


-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-16-2003).]

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#125665 - 04/16/03 08:43 PM Re: Bladed weapons
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Let me make a couple of observations if I may...

If I was unfortunate enough to come up against even an average punter with a knife I would have a serious problem. If that punter turned out to be a skilled knife fighter, well then I'm knackered really, aren't I? Sometimes there are no answers.

I think that to try to take the initiative against a knife attack is very risky indeed, and to wait for him/her to attack is also very risky indeed. So far as I can see the best possible defence I can use is to keep out of reach. Aikido teaches this at least as well as any other MA, and better than most.

Now before you all start with the "what if's" I will conceed here and now that I have no doubt there are a multitude of situations wherein keeping out of reach is not possible, or the knife has been concealed. In these scenarios the only thing that will save you is luck.

Clearly you improve your chances if you employ your best techniques. For some of us that may mean kicking the attacker, others might want to attack first whilst some of us, myself included, would prefer to defend an attack. We each of us train to defend in different ways, that doesn't change once a knife is added to the equation.

There are no sure fire ways to defend against a knife, so ultimately it comes down to your preference as to your most proficient techniques. We all have to do what we do best, 'cos that's the only way we stand any chance of not being skewered.

Budo (without prejudice [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG])

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