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#125600 - 04/10/03 02:49 PM different styles
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
People create different styles of aikido only when they are unable to master the original. The likes of Kohei sensei, Shioda sensei and Tomiki sensei were wrong to create aikido variants.

Discuss...

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#125601 - 04/10/03 03:01 PM Re: different styles
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
In that case, O'Sensei is "wrong" to take Aikijutsu and run with it (to make aikido). O'Sensei AND Kano sensei are both "wrong" to take the bujitsu tradition and turn it into do.

-raccoon

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#125602 - 04/10/03 03:21 PM Re: different styles
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Maybe O'sensei is justified because he started a completely new MA, not just a variant of an existing one. Aikido did not exist until he founded it, he didn't simply start a variation of aiki jutsu. The same is true of Kano sensei - Judo is not Ju jutsu, aikido is not aiki jutsu. Varying an existing art isn't the same as founding your own. Or is it?

Budo

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#125603 - 04/10/03 03:52 PM Re: different styles
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
It's wrong if they claim they are creating a new art form. I personally don't see anything wrong with different styles. Every student of O'Sensei is different. Some might have strong background in karate, others might have strong background in sumo, yet others will have strong background in Judo (like Tomiki). Others find stronger interests in weapons (Iwama). The fact is, when you pass an art to a student, you won't be making exact copy, you aren't making a duplicate. The student goes through different stages of learning, eventually he will make his or her own interpretation, or alter things a bit to suit himself better. With background different than the founder, these people see different applications for the art, and therefore bring more to the art. This keeps the art adepting and fit the new generations. It also allows the art to grow even though the founder is no longer around.

It kinds of goes back to another post you made - is is pointless to practice bokken? Most if not all students of O'Sensei aren't very accomplished swordsman. So when they teach, they won't place as much emphasis on sword techniques; they aren't going to teach it EXACTLY like O'Sensei. Does it make them wrong to pass on the art with their respective strength and weaknesses? Is it pointless to preserve the weapons in the art, even though most teachers nowadays don't have as much understanding in swordsmanship as O'Sensei did? I am not ready to make that accusation.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-10-2003).]

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#125604 - 04/11/03 01:11 AM Re: different styles
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Get your guns out, because you will want to shoot me after this, and I admit I am wrong before you get the chance, but this is a perspective on the theme.
How many ways can one twist a wrist, lock an elbow, or break a finger? There has to be a finite number.So you can only have but so many ways to accomplish something. Aiki-do is a different approach than Aiki-Jujutsu, same techniques, different approach. Judo is for sport, period, it was its intention from the beginning, but, except for safety sake, its the same techniques as Jujutsu, different approach. If you look at many styles you will see the same things, people just don't look. I can share with you a Chin Na technique from China that is called "White Ape Worships Buddha", its Kotegaeshi, Kotemawashi whatever you want to call it. It is said that Chin Na existed way before the Aiki arts of Japan. I can show you a Pentak-Silant technique that is nothing more than Ikkyo or Ude Osae. Once again this art is said to have its origins in Kempo and its origins in China, way before the Aiki arts. All these arts have elements of others, though many people close their eyes to this. So.......when one learns information, they process this and do it the best they can. It may change because of the person. That may be because of his background and prejudices. My point is, different people are going to glean different things from information and make it pertinent to them. Which comes back to approach. We discuss about the changes that people make, put all of us in a room and ask to see the same technique, and you will not see the same thing, I despise big circles, so my locking art is very small. Yet we do the same locks. My approach is much different now, then when it was taught to me, we all evolve. Change is inevitable, it has to happen. If you get a person 6'4" coming down at you with a shomen strike, try to stop that strike at its peak or before, and if you are less than 6' you will need a foot stool to reach his arm. You have to adapt, to make things fit you, adaptation leads to change, and sometimes this may not be good, as some leave out parts of the art. In this case you may leave out principles and concepts that are essential to learn. So that's what I think, now let me come clean and tell you that my Soke just honored me by declaring my own style, and linked it to his. Its a major honor, and I am very excited to have this honor. saying so, puts me in that group who created something, though in all honesty I stole the information from others. So my stand on this is a bit bias, and I stand guilty as charged!!!

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#125605 - 04/11/03 01:19 AM Re: different styles
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
Get your guns out, because you will want to shoot me after this, [/QUOTE]

May I shoot you with my camera instead?

SNAP!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#125606 - 04/11/03 11:59 AM Re: different styles
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I've an idea you shouldn't shoot Lou with your camera before you've seen what he looks like, raccoon - I think the ugly bugger would only break it!!!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

(No offence Lou, I'm sure your a handsome devil, in your own way. LOL)

Budo

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#125607 - 04/11/03 12:24 PM Re: different styles
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

He won't dare!! I am telling big momma, err, I mean, super cyber-cop Mr. V to haul his "seats" to the corner, AND pay for my brand frogging new camera!

yours in aiki [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] <... sweet, innocent smile
-raccoon

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#125608 - 04/14/03 01:54 PM Re: different styles
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Can anyone explain to me why new styles are created? Are those we have not enough? Do, for example, karateka feel their art is enhanced or divided by new styles coming along?

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#125609 - 04/14/03 10:52 PM Re: different styles
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
This may take a bit, but remember you asked. I'll try to keep it short. Those who I have consulted about the styles they created, never intended to create a style-it just happened. In my case, I started in Judo, went to college, no more Judo, started Goju Ryu Karate, 2 years later, Sensei leaves. Move to Arizona, study Kempo, dojo closes, start Aikido. I was treated terribly there, and didn't feel that my Aikido was functional, to the extent we were talking about earlier, initiating an attack.I also wondered if my Aikido would work against other martial arts, it didn't so I left seeking an answer to make my Aiki more funtional. Went to Aiki-Jujutsu(Obata Sensei) and the locks were harsher, but still didn't like the big circles. I met a Sensei who shared with me Goshin Budo Jujutsu. This was a combination of Shioda Sensei Aikido and Takeda Jujutsu. Kuniba Sensei also studied Shito Ryu Karate as his father owned a Dojo and allowed his son to travel and study many arts. If you ever see the documentary called Budo, Soke Kuniba is the guy in a white Hakama doing sword, he also choreographed the movie. His best friend in that is Hayashi Sensei who is doing weapons with him. My Sensei trained with both these men. My Sensei saw that Goshin Budo would be a great fit with my Aikido, and also strongly suggested I study Kuniba Ha Shito Ryu, which I gratefully did. He also introduced me to Torite Ryu which is joint locking in Kata. I realized my groundwork was weak so I asked permission to study groundwork which at first was Brazillian Jujutsu, not technical enough, and too sport oriented and went to Sambo. I then found what I term the answer, San Jitsu Ryu which was my perfect fit, as it employs everything I like to do. San Jitsu has its roots in Hawaii and I started studying some Hawaiian arts, Lua, Danzan Ryu Jujutsu. I was told to start combining my favortie things together, and bingo you have a new style. Now I don't profess to inventing anything, I stole everything from great and knowledgeable Sensei and worked the things that worked for me. I consider what I do, a 'family style' and that I don't actively seek students commercially, its a refer by name or if someone has seen at a seminar. What I do is a bit different than an Okinawan stylist as I lock a lot, I am not Aiki, nor Jujutsu as I strike way more, so its hard to put a finger on what I do, that is why I have linked my style to San Jitsu, because its more that than anything else.BUTTTTT......I have things that San Jitsu doesn't, so my Sensei insists that I add my years of influence to his art. As you see it just happened. If I would have seen San Jitsu 25 years ago, I would have never learned anything else. we have a principle that states, "Finish what is incomplete".Some of what I studied I felt was missing certain elements to make me round, so I investigated other arts till I felt complete.
As for are there enough out there sure, and when you find what is right for you there is no need in moving on.I am sure there are arts that are complete for what people want from them and investigating is not essential. As for the Karate question, there are so many styles of karate from Okinawa anyway, and so many versions of kata, people either readily accept the variation or are steadfast in their own way. I don't think it a big deal to most Karate-Ka and they usually stay within their own style anyway.I haven't really seen a new Karate style, most are combinations of Karate and other arts.

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#125610 - 04/15/03 04:46 PM Re: different styles
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I may well be wrong (don't say it, Lou!!) but it seems to me that karateka invariably cross train. Is this because karate on it's own is inadequate?

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#125611 - 04/15/03 05:22 PM Re: different styles
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Cato> You are indeed wrong! I've train with many karateka who do not cross train, I also train with many aikidoka who do not cross train.

That said, I might even agree that karate on its own is inadequate... never mind, I might get killed for that u__u

Like I said in another thread, judge the person, not the art. I think many budoka nowadays do not fully realize the potential of their style. I am pretty sure aikido, as we practice it these days, fall short of what O'Sensei envision it to be, and his expectation of how it is to be practiced.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-15-2003).]

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#125612 - 04/15/03 09:30 PM Re: different styles
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
No cato, karate was a complete system - striking at all ranges, grappling, trapping, kyusho and torite and weapons.

But most of the info was lost, a way to recieve it again is to train in systems also influenced by Gongfu and Chin Na.

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#125613 - 04/15/03 09:32 PM Re: different styles
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
No cato, karate was a complete system - striking at all ranges, grappling, trapping, kyusho and torite and weapons.

But most of the info was lost, a way to recieve it again is to train in systems also influenced by Gongfu and Chin Na.

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#125614 - 04/16/03 02:31 AM Re: different styles
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
hey Joe, I got it the first time, is your computer stuttering? LOL I have to find my amusement where I can. However once again Joe is right, karate is complete if you train with the right type of Sensei.Alot of the cross-training issue is a simple fact that many Sensei don't allow it. very rarely will you find a Shotokan student cross training, and that is true for several of the more traditional arts. karate-ka got a real lesson in the early 90's with the influx of BJJ, and I think alot of practioners went out to find a better grappling art then they had. Same with certain grappling arts prationers looking for a striking art.It really depends on what you want to focus on. if one would look at what I do, you would say thats not Okinawan karate, they are right, though my rank is in Shito and Shuri ryu, my approach to striking is more Hawaiian influenced because I believe it compliments my grappling and locking arts better. Once you have the basics, its easier to find a style more suited to you.

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#125615 - 04/16/03 04:05 AM Re: different styles
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
So where did karate lose its way? How did this complete system become the sport that you see in most dojo these days?

I freely admit that aikido has lost its way big time, and I put that down to the changing nature of O'sensei throughout his life. He allowed his religion to pervade his art. Karate doesn't seem to have that same problem yet it has gone down a similar route. Why is that?

I'm also intrigued to learn what an Okinawan approach to striking is and how it differs from am Hawaiin approach or a Japanese or Chinese one.

Budo

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#125616 - 04/17/03 01:11 AM Re: different styles
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Great points Cato, but I will tell you its really a tough question. My initial answer is there are 2 things that changed the face of Karate.
1. Money, Americans love to see money making opportunity in everything. Over here, restuarants go out of business all the time, and there are people everywhere who think they can open one, money money money. When we saw an old Japaneese man teaching in a dingy basement, we figure we can get a store fix it nice, and run a school. No matter of the quality, we offer the product
2. Everything is competition, so why not sport. Then you have personalities like Chuck Norris, Bob wall, Don Wilson who popularized the sport karate venue. So we find competition Karate, from forms to fighting. Trophies are impressive in your front window and it draws students. I lose prospective students all the time because we don't compete. No trophy, no student, very few people are interested in knowledge, all they want is rank, belts and trophies. so you find schools that change curriculum to address the students wants
We won't compete and everything we do is for gaining knowledge, and self improvement. to me competition breeds bad feelings and sloppy techniques. There are no pads or refs or the street, and points don't count, so we don't play. The other factor is that many 1st generation Sensei are dying off, we just lost a pioneer in Jujutsu, Duke Moore, who was instrumental in developing Jujutsu in the states. He introduced Jujutsu into colleges and clubs started to evolve. Its a real shame as I had plans to train with him in July. With the first generation disappearing, the 2nd generation didn't go through the same things that their Sensei did, and things get short cut and watered down.

As for the 'approach' to Karate or 'influence' of different styles. you need a history of Karate and I don't want to tie this up doing it. Basically there isn't any Japaneese Karate as it is a Okinawan style(Shorin) changed so that the Japaneese people would accept it. this style is Shotokan and is very linear. Japaneese Goju has a little more circular movement but not much. Most Okinawan Karate is angular, some styles with a little circular motion. Okinawan karate stresses the importance of strong blocking and countering techniques. when you watch Okinawan sparring you will virtually no circular movement. The Hawaiian influence is unique as you have Okinawan styles there and Kempo styles too. The arts really mixed in Hawaii due to everyone training with everyone. My Sensei was studying Judo when the Sensei's brother-in law came to the scholl and taught Kempo for a month, then left. this happened all the time, thats why you see Kempo-Jutsu and Kajukembo coming out of Hawaii. There also is Lua, Lima Lama, that are native arts. Hawaiian Karate, I think flows better than Okinawan Karate does, as one strikes sets up another and its easier I think going into joint locking. I prefer a pre-emptive strike or two before joint locking-throwing etc. The strikes of all Karate are basically the same, however the Hawaiian techniques flow better and are not as linear I think. Chineese karate-Kung Fu is related to the animal styles and each is unique, but you will see much more circular movement. I do not know much about Chineese systems except the Eagle Chin Na we study. Their low stances are killers on my old knees and back. Once again my opinion, once you have your basics down, its easier to find an approach you like, mine is more Lua, and Kempo Jutsu oriented

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#125617 - 04/17/03 08:38 AM Re: different styles
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Any chance that O'Sensei changed/evolved Aikido over the course of his teaching career? If so it would make sense that his students over the years were taught different things.

Add to that the fact that everyone brings unique perspectives, skills, and intentions to their training. My Tae Kwon Do experience will influence my Aikido and make it different than someone with no other martial art experience.

Lastly, I work out with a couple of very small women as well as a guy that is 6'8" and 300 pounds... There is no way a wide range of sizes is going to do the same technique the same way.

All of this is going to cause one persons interpretation of an art to be different than anyone else's.

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#125618 - 04/17/03 12:29 PM Re: different styles
Joe Jutsu Offline
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Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Sensei Lou-

You seem to be quite the accomplished martial artist! For some reason, I'm assuming that you live in the States, and I was just wondering what region you live in, because if I ever find myself in that region I would very much like to observe a class and or train. Then again, I understand if you don't want to answer that question, I'd be skeptical about giving sensitive info out on the internet, especially in an anonymous forum such as this. But either way, I enjoyed reading about your path through the martial arts. When you studied Aikido, was it Aikikai? Thanks,
Joe.

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#125619 - 04/17/03 02:41 PM Re: different styles
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Joe, I am in sunny Arizona and if you are ever here feel free to let me know. As far as my Aikido, I belonged to ASU, American schools of Ueshiba, with the arrogant, hateful Satome Sensei as its head. No wonder the school was loaded with ego maniacs, look at Satome himself. He thinks he's the recarnation of Uesheiba himself. Getting fed up with him, I briefly changed alliances to AAA, with Toyada Sensei who recently passed away. He was a warm, wonderful Sensei who really cared. I truly miss him. My AikiJujutsu was under Obata Sensei(of Shredder fame-ninja turtles you know)and Showdown in little Tokyo. The bald, small built like a tank Japaneese guy who fought Dolph Lundgren and Brandon Lee. I really don't remember the name of his organization though but he was associated with Ibarra Sensei(who I had the experience to be brutalized by) and Goldberg Sensei of New York. My Jujutsu style came from Kuniba Sensei who created Goshin Budo Jujutsu after training with Shioda Sensei in Japan(Aikido) and Takeda Sensei in Japan.(Jujutsu)

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#125620 - 04/18/03 02:10 PM Re: different styles
Joe Jutsu Offline
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Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Lou Sensei-

Thank you for the offer. I have a friend who is graduating this spring from ASU (not the society of Ueshiba), so I actually may be in your neck of the woods. You definitely have quite the resume! I confess to not know much about Satome Sensei, but now I'm inclined to do a bit of education. I hope to spend some time in Japan after I graduate from college at the end of next year through the JET program, so hopefully I'll be able to seek out some similar expertise in various budo that you've been able to. So I'll definitely let you know if I'm in AZ, I'd be very interested to actually see and watch your style. It seems that you have much to teach!

Joe.

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#125621 - 04/19/03 01:14 AM Re: different styles
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Joe, let me know, and bring your gi. We will work on any aspect that you feel comfortable with, with the exception of big circle Aikido, but I will share the smaller circle if you want. My Son is a senior at ASU as well so you are more than welcome to share some dojo time or just visit with us. Just let me know. I don't know when you are planning to be out here but We are sponsoring a seminar with Hanshi Bruce Juchnik and Professor Eugene Seden on the 30-31 of May. Both will be at my dojo for a private class that Friday, and an all day Saturday seminar with them as well. If you make it that weekend I won't charge you to keep the expenses down. Just let me know.

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#125622 - 04/22/03 08:23 PM Re: different styles
WavyD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 18
[QUOTE]Originally posted by csinca:
Any chance that O'Sensei changed/evolved Aikido over the course of his teaching career? If so it would make sense that his students over the years were taught different things.

Add to that the fact that everyone brings unique perspectives, skills, and intentions to their training. My Tae Kwon Do experience will influence my Aikido and make it different than someone with no other martial art experience.

Lastly, I work out with a couple of very small women as well as a guy that is 6'8" and 300 pounds... There is no way a wide range of sizes is going to do the same technique the same way.

All of this is going to cause one persons interpretation of an art to be different than anyone else's.

[/QUOTE]


I agree and just want to add Martial Arts is just that...an art. Most teachers will tell their students to find their own way which is part of the martial arts and the reason that students become teachers and teachers become masters. You find balance by learning to combine mind and body. With balance comes growth and evolution. In my life I've studied many martial arts and hold rank (I'm not a style jumper looking for the 1 greatest art). One thing that all the arts have shared is the same goal. Personal balance.

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#125623 - 04/24/03 09:14 AM Re: different styles
cerckert Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 6
Loc: Huntington, NY, United States
As someone who has only been training for 3 years in Aikido I would say the single most important thing that would clear up a young students mind would be for the instructor to explain the lineage of what they were teaching, not to prove it was the best but to show how what the student is learning fits into the greater martial arts community.

eg After 2 years of training with one instructor then have to switch instuctors and being told that the lineage of the new instructor was the only authentic aikido was extremely dishartening and I began to seriously question what I learned. I have now have come to terms with this and feel that both instructors are teaching in the aiki spirit but it confused me for quite some time.

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#125624 - 04/27/03 03:03 AM Re: different styles
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Well, listening to this reminds me of a situation where an Aikido school said they had no affiliation style wise or lineage wise to another Aikido style. They were totally separate, and only one was authentic. They were right, the only 1 authentic art was done by Ueshieba himself, or maybe family members. Outside of that, no one does things exactly like O'Sensei for the main reason, that nobody since has been that talented. Lineage all came from Ueshieba, so there is a common thread. Beginners are gulliable to what is being told to them, so I am not sure this is the answer either. Political situations also change lineage as well as associations. I can't tell you how many different stories I have heard about how Aikido evolved. Its a natural progression of things for an art to evolve, and people have a tendency to embellish their story. So when one tells you he studied with Ueshieba, and is only 38 years old, you know something is up. Somewhere along the line, Senseis modify what they teach, and their Sensei modified to them. Nothing is authentic. Soke Shogo Kuniba is known for Kuniba-HA Shito Ryu in this country, Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu in Japan. Same art 2 different names. When I tell people I got my Jujutsu from this man they tell me I don't know what I am talking about as he is a Karate Master. What they don't know, and the Aiki people don't know is that Kuniba Sensei was one of Shioda Sensei's top student, but Kuniba Sensei combined his Jujutsu Aikido and Karate together in this country, and only a handful of people know about it. So if I were to say I had a lineage to Shioda Sensei would not be wrong, but embellished. I say don't worry about the about the variations, study the art, its a vehicle for your independent pursuit of a goal. For my money, unless you train the exact way, are built the same way, know the same information, had the same life experiences as your Sensei, then something is going to evolve, and I personally have no problem with it, and am glad people like Kuniba Sensei had the guts to say, this is the way I do it, like it fine, if not find someone else. That is my philosophy as well.

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