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#125600 - 04/10/03 02:49 PM different styles
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
People create different styles of aikido only when they are unable to master the original. The likes of Kohei sensei, Shioda sensei and Tomiki sensei were wrong to create aikido variants.

Discuss...

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#125601 - 04/10/03 03:01 PM Re: different styles
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
In that case, O'Sensei is "wrong" to take Aikijutsu and run with it (to make aikido). O'Sensei AND Kano sensei are both "wrong" to take the bujitsu tradition and turn it into do.

-raccoon

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#125602 - 04/10/03 03:21 PM Re: different styles
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Maybe O'sensei is justified because he started a completely new MA, not just a variant of an existing one. Aikido did not exist until he founded it, he didn't simply start a variation of aiki jutsu. The same is true of Kano sensei - Judo is not Ju jutsu, aikido is not aiki jutsu. Varying an existing art isn't the same as founding your own. Or is it?

Budo

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#125603 - 04/10/03 03:52 PM Re: different styles
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
It's wrong if they claim they are creating a new art form. I personally don't see anything wrong with different styles. Every student of O'Sensei is different. Some might have strong background in karate, others might have strong background in sumo, yet others will have strong background in Judo (like Tomiki). Others find stronger interests in weapons (Iwama). The fact is, when you pass an art to a student, you won't be making exact copy, you aren't making a duplicate. The student goes through different stages of learning, eventually he will make his or her own interpretation, or alter things a bit to suit himself better. With background different than the founder, these people see different applications for the art, and therefore bring more to the art. This keeps the art adepting and fit the new generations. It also allows the art to grow even though the founder is no longer around.

It kinds of goes back to another post you made - is is pointless to practice bokken? Most if not all students of O'Sensei aren't very accomplished swordsman. So when they teach, they won't place as much emphasis on sword techniques; they aren't going to teach it EXACTLY like O'Sensei. Does it make them wrong to pass on the art with their respective strength and weaknesses? Is it pointless to preserve the weapons in the art, even though most teachers nowadays don't have as much understanding in swordsmanship as O'Sensei did? I am not ready to make that accusation.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-10-2003).]

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#125604 - 04/11/03 01:11 AM Re: different styles
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Get your guns out, because you will want to shoot me after this, and I admit I am wrong before you get the chance, but this is a perspective on the theme.
How many ways can one twist a wrist, lock an elbow, or break a finger? There has to be a finite number.So you can only have but so many ways to accomplish something. Aiki-do is a different approach than Aiki-Jujutsu, same techniques, different approach. Judo is for sport, period, it was its intention from the beginning, but, except for safety sake, its the same techniques as Jujutsu, different approach. If you look at many styles you will see the same things, people just don't look. I can share with you a Chin Na technique from China that is called "White Ape Worships Buddha", its Kotegaeshi, Kotemawashi whatever you want to call it. It is said that Chin Na existed way before the Aiki arts of Japan. I can show you a Pentak-Silant technique that is nothing more than Ikkyo or Ude Osae. Once again this art is said to have its origins in Kempo and its origins in China, way before the Aiki arts. All these arts have elements of others, though many people close their eyes to this. So.......when one learns information, they process this and do it the best they can. It may change because of the person. That may be because of his background and prejudices. My point is, different people are going to glean different things from information and make it pertinent to them. Which comes back to approach. We discuss about the changes that people make, put all of us in a room and ask to see the same technique, and you will not see the same thing, I despise big circles, so my locking art is very small. Yet we do the same locks. My approach is much different now, then when it was taught to me, we all evolve. Change is inevitable, it has to happen. If you get a person 6'4" coming down at you with a shomen strike, try to stop that strike at its peak or before, and if you are less than 6' you will need a foot stool to reach his arm. You have to adapt, to make things fit you, adaptation leads to change, and sometimes this may not be good, as some leave out parts of the art. In this case you may leave out principles and concepts that are essential to learn. So that's what I think, now let me come clean and tell you that my Soke just honored me by declaring my own style, and linked it to his. Its a major honor, and I am very excited to have this honor. saying so, puts me in that group who created something, though in all honesty I stole the information from others. So my stand on this is a bit bias, and I stand guilty as charged!!!

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#125605 - 04/11/03 01:19 AM Re: different styles
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
Get your guns out, because you will want to shoot me after this, [/QUOTE]

May I shoot you with my camera instead?

SNAP!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#125606 - 04/11/03 11:59 AM Re: different styles
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I've an idea you shouldn't shoot Lou with your camera before you've seen what he looks like, raccoon - I think the ugly bugger would only break it!!!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

(No offence Lou, I'm sure your a handsome devil, in your own way. LOL)

Budo

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#125607 - 04/11/03 12:24 PM Re: different styles
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

He won't dare!! I am telling big momma, err, I mean, super cyber-cop Mr. V to haul his "seats" to the corner, AND pay for my brand frogging new camera!

yours in aiki [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] <... sweet, innocent smile
-raccoon

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#125608 - 04/14/03 01:54 PM Re: different styles
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Can anyone explain to me why new styles are created? Are those we have not enough? Do, for example, karateka feel their art is enhanced or divided by new styles coming along?

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#125609 - 04/14/03 10:52 PM Re: different styles
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
This may take a bit, but remember you asked. I'll try to keep it short. Those who I have consulted about the styles they created, never intended to create a style-it just happened. In my case, I started in Judo, went to college, no more Judo, started Goju Ryu Karate, 2 years later, Sensei leaves. Move to Arizona, study Kempo, dojo closes, start Aikido. I was treated terribly there, and didn't feel that my Aikido was functional, to the extent we were talking about earlier, initiating an attack.I also wondered if my Aikido would work against other martial arts, it didn't so I left seeking an answer to make my Aiki more funtional. Went to Aiki-Jujutsu(Obata Sensei) and the locks were harsher, but still didn't like the big circles. I met a Sensei who shared with me Goshin Budo Jujutsu. This was a combination of Shioda Sensei Aikido and Takeda Jujutsu. Kuniba Sensei also studied Shito Ryu Karate as his father owned a Dojo and allowed his son to travel and study many arts. If you ever see the documentary called Budo, Soke Kuniba is the guy in a white Hakama doing sword, he also choreographed the movie. His best friend in that is Hayashi Sensei who is doing weapons with him. My Sensei trained with both these men. My Sensei saw that Goshin Budo would be a great fit with my Aikido, and also strongly suggested I study Kuniba Ha Shito Ryu, which I gratefully did. He also introduced me to Torite Ryu which is joint locking in Kata. I realized my groundwork was weak so I asked permission to study groundwork which at first was Brazillian Jujutsu, not technical enough, and too sport oriented and went to Sambo. I then found what I term the answer, San Jitsu Ryu which was my perfect fit, as it employs everything I like to do. San Jitsu has its roots in Hawaii and I started studying some Hawaiian arts, Lua, Danzan Ryu Jujutsu. I was told to start combining my favortie things together, and bingo you have a new style. Now I don't profess to inventing anything, I stole everything from great and knowledgeable Sensei and worked the things that worked for me. I consider what I do, a 'family style' and that I don't actively seek students commercially, its a refer by name or if someone has seen at a seminar. What I do is a bit different than an Okinawan stylist as I lock a lot, I am not Aiki, nor Jujutsu as I strike way more, so its hard to put a finger on what I do, that is why I have linked my style to San Jitsu, because its more that than anything else.BUTTTTT......I have things that San Jitsu doesn't, so my Sensei insists that I add my years of influence to his art. As you see it just happened. If I would have seen San Jitsu 25 years ago, I would have never learned anything else. we have a principle that states, "Finish what is incomplete".Some of what I studied I felt was missing certain elements to make me round, so I investigated other arts till I felt complete.
As for are there enough out there sure, and when you find what is right for you there is no need in moving on.I am sure there are arts that are complete for what people want from them and investigating is not essential. As for the Karate question, there are so many styles of karate from Okinawa anyway, and so many versions of kata, people either readily accept the variation or are steadfast in their own way. I don't think it a big deal to most Karate-Ka and they usually stay within their own style anyway.I haven't really seen a new Karate style, most are combinations of Karate and other arts.

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