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#125558 - 04/10/03 02:46 PM Weapons training
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Weapons training in aikido is pointless. There is no value in learning techniques with a Jo staff, and even less point in training with a bokken. Everything that is learnt with weapons can be learnt equally as well without them.

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#125559 - 04/10/03 03:07 PM Re: Weapons training
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
As young as aikido is, it's still generally considered a traditional art form. It's a fact that O'Sensei is a very accomplished swordsman, and it's my understanding that his education in swordmenship has great impact on development of his art.

I don't disagree you can learn all aikido empty hand movements without using jo or bokken. But as far as I understand, if you leave out the weapons, you are leaving out part of the art.

Much like you can forget about katas and still learn to punch and kick, no? Then why is it necessary to learn karate kata?

yours in aiki
-raccoon

P.S.

[QUOTE]
Weapons training in aikido is pointless. There is no value in learning techniques with a Jo staff, and even less point in training with a bokken. Everything that is learnt with weapons can be learnt equally as well without them.
[/QUOTE]
Now you have me curious. How do you get "less point" out of something pointLESS/ has NO value? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

P.P.S:
I just got send to train with a 8th Dan kobudo kiyoshi, he teaches kata and kihon in weapons only, until you are sandan. Guess who sended me? My full contact karate master who confess to be retarded at katas, and sees little value in them. So why would he tell me to augment my trainings with a dojo that purely practice weapons kata, when he knows how "busy" I am and have such hard time keeping up with his "special tournament regiment"? (Then obviously he doesn't know I am a internet junkie...)

[

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-11-2003).]

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#125560 - 04/11/03 10:30 AM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I think I'm going to have to disagree, raccoon. Karate kata is a way of traininmg empty hand techniques, techniques that could reasonably be expected to be employed in the course of defending yourself. They are still relevant to modern day life, and they therefore have a useful role within karate training.

Weapons training is no longer relevant. The chances of meeting an irate maniac carrying a jo staff or katana are, I think, quite slim. That would seem to make any weapons training, in any art, rather pointless.

The likliehood of being in possession of your jo when attacked are so small as to make training self defence using the jo a waste of time, effectively of no value.

Similarly, you are never going to use a katana for self defence, and should you be unfortunate enough to meet an attacker with a katana you would be well advised to keep well away, so training with the katana or bokken is even less relevant than with a jo, in other words, it has even less point.

Aikidoka are training with obsolete weapons, Why?

Budo

PS I hope my syntax meets the required standard this time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#125561 - 04/11/03 10:51 AM Re: Weapons training
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
I am afraid I will have to disagree, too [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

If an aspect of an art has little use in self defense, then the martial arts practioners should drop that aspect all together?

FYI, shihan send me to study katas in Kobudo, an ancient art form that use old farm tools as weapons. The only place you will find those "farm tools" these days are in martial arts store, and some of them are illegal to possess in Canada. You can get a license to by a gun; you don't need a license to poccess a katana; you CANNOT in ANYWAY legally own some of these "farm tools". (I own a few [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG])

So... should the art kobudo be wiped off the face of the planet all together?

I speculate, if I can use a jo to defense myself, I can use a mop; if I can use a tonfa (farm tool), I can use my thermo mug. Similar principles - bone extension to strike, aline it at an angle to block. Swing mug out by loosening grip to swing and strike... it can adapt.

But even if it can't be adapted... are we arguing the only value of budo training is self defense? My answer is no.

-raccoon

P.S. Who am I to correct your syntax? I just thought you Englishman can inform us uneducated Chinese [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

P.P.S- I think weapons also helps us understand some of the moves. At least for me, I find myself understand some of the moves much better after I've repeat them with weapons - it also helps me to see where they come from (samurai H2H combats).

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-11-2003).]

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#125562 - 04/11/03 04:24 PM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
raccoon, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't we in danger of turning martial arts into some kind of historical preservation society, when they should be a self preservation? If we keep practising because "it has always been done that way" then we would still be hitting each other with rocks, martial arts need to evolve to some extent otherwise they become useless.

If you need to adapt the use of a jo to a mop, why not train with a mop in the first place? It would be more usefull [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

PS It is a peculiar trait of the English that we think we can teach the world how to speak our language. In truth many "foreigners" speak better English than wot we do. I'm sure you could teach me a lot.

PPS Hmm...I think you may have something there.

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#125563 - 04/15/03 03:45 PM Re: Weapons training
Joe Jutsu Offline
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Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I encourage everyone to visit www.aikiweb.com, where there is a link to an article entitled "Why Women Should Wield Weapons" which really applies to this thread. I'd be curious to see what you guys think, especially the more experienced practitioners of the arts out there.

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#125564 - 04/15/03 09:28 PM Re: Weapons training
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Yep, nothing wrong in using a mop. But a jo is moe adaptable. Like the Chinese Gongfu styles who use staff and farming hoes.

You might say there is no need for JuJutsuka to use the Jutte. I disagrre. The police toshu keibo is based upon this weapon.

Short of firearms, bugei and kobujutsu can be adapted - tanto for knives, jutte and sai for truncheon and similar sized opbjects, club and kon for pool cues and so on. More importantly the princciples leanred will mean ordinary implements can be used as weapons.

Pen for tekko and yawara, yarawa for truncheon, belts and canes used as per hapkido and kuk sool.

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#125565 - 04/16/03 05:47 AM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Okay, we can adapt an everyday object to act as an ad hoc weapon. Why would we want to? Surely we learn martial arts to defend ourselves using empty hand skills. What happens if there is no convenient household appliance with which to disembowl your attacker? Shouldn't training concentrate on there being no weapons to hand, adapted or otherwise. That is after all much more likely to be the case.

Budo

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#125566 - 04/16/03 06:17 AM Re: Weapons training
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
You are saying you are most likely to engage into fights where you are surrounded by nothing but a plain, smooth ground, with no stick or stone or whatever on it? Like... say... your dojo?

If you are on duty, you have radio on hand, that's weapon.

If you are doing homework, you have your fountain pen handy, that's weapon.

If you are eating... hell, you have a table, a knife, a fork, or chopstic... everything can be weapon.

What we can use in a survival situation is only limited by our lack of knowledge and creativity.

-raccoon

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#125567 - 04/16/03 08:12 PM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
And I suppose you recommend I take on would attackers using a pencil, a stick of chewing gum and a piece of elastic band? (actually, that would make a half decent pencil "rocket" launcher, wouldn't it. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] )

Why be creative in a self defence situation when all you need to be is effective? Whatever else you happen to find yourself surrounded by, you are very likely to have your hands and feet with you, so surely it makes sense to make them your first choice weapons?

I'd much rather defend myself successfully using a boring old punch than I would get creamed trying an innovative double mop sweep and pencil eye gouge finishing technique. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#125568 - 04/16/03 10:52 PM Re: Weapons training
Jamoni Offline
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Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Cato, for one, almost ANY weapon dramatically affects the distance issue.
Traditional weapons: Jo, Katana, Tanto, Jitte, Manriku Gusari, etc...
Modern weapons: Baseball bat, machete, kitchen knife, lead pipe, motorcycle chain, belt, etc...
Weapons training in aikido teaches principles which can and should be adapted to modern situations. It is not the choice of weapon that is important, but the principles it is used to illustrate.

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#125569 - 04/17/03 12:23 PM Re: Weapons training
Joe Jutsu Offline
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Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I agree with Jamoni. I feel that my club has been stressing weapons too much lately, I much prefer to learn and work on unarmed techniques. But Aikido teaches you to move and how to coordinate your mind and body, so I do see a value to training with weapons. If nothing else, practicing with weapons IMHO gives you a greater sensitivity to maai, but then again, I've only been practicing for about two years so what do I know [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]. Just my 2 cents...

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#125570 - 04/17/03 02:38 PM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
So we now think weapons training teaches us principles that empty hand techniques don't? Such as...what exactly?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

If I might just try to put this weapons training into some kind of practical perspective - indulge me for a moment.

Suppose I'm sat having lunch in a restaurant when in walks senseilou. He recognises me for the argumentative, opinionated and patronising Limey SOB that I undoubtedly must appear to be, and, quite justifiably, decides to educate me.

Now suppose I see him coming and think "Ooops, I'm in for it here" what should I do? I can sieze the fish knife(improviseed tanto) and proceed to try to fillet him, but is that defence proportional to the attack, no. So it is it in keeping with aikido philosophy, again - no.

Alternatively, I could grab a conveniently placed mop and set about mopping the floor with him (get it? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]). All well and good, but suppose I mis-read his intentions and he was coming over to borrow the salt? I never let him anywhere near me, let alone initiate an attack. Giving him a face full of dirty mop water wasn't the best thing I could have done after all. I've ruined his suit for nothing. Again not really in keeping with aikido.

Now he's really mad (who wouldn't be?) and grabs a knife to get some summary justice. I could arm myself in a similar fashion, in which case I will lose because my aikido training doesn't adequately teach me how to use a knife and he is a skilled fighter with one. Or I could try to employ my empty hand techniques, the ones that make up the vast bulk of my training and which I should be most proficient in. I may well lose again, but I stand a better chance because I'm using my best skills base to defend myself. Aikido is essentially about empty hand techniques.

So, remind me - what did we say was the value of training with weapons?

Budo

[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 04-17-2003).]

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#125571 - 04/17/03 02:48 PM Re: Weapons training
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Cato! Are you wicked or are you wicked!? I can't stop laffing and I have an Exam to write in a few hours!!

Don't have time to dig into the principle stuff, but in the above senario... never mind. If sensei Lou is coming at me, I don't care if he is borrowing salt (and you know how he is going to use it anyway [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]) or educating me, I am going to use my empty BOWEL technique - spot the washroom and pretend it's real urgent - RUN for it!! Oh, and let's just hope there is a big window there! A true warrior should always check out his escape route ahead anyway!

-raccoon [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

P.S> So much for a Dan grade in aikido, don't you understand the principle of avoiding attacks all together? LOL.

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-17-2003).]

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#125572 - 04/24/03 05:14 AM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
A totally understandable response raccoon. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Now, cards on the table time. I also think weapons training in aikido is important, but not for learning how to use weapons. I think the value of training with weapons is mainly two fold. First, they hurt when they hit you - anyone ever had a bokken on the forearm or tanto in the ribs? And second they are great equalisers. A large aikidoka who enjoys muscling his/her way through empty hand techniques can't do so with weapons. So, weapons training forces you to improve your technique by showing up your deficiencies.

Comments anyone?

Budo

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#125573 - 04/24/03 12:49 PM Re: Weapons training
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know very little about Aikido, my training is wado and jujitsu based, but I LOVE learning and performing katas with knife, jo and nunchukkas. Not for any practical reason but just because I enjoy it.

By products of doing them are: increased wrist strength, better co-ordination and trying to maintain a good stance whilst twirling nunchukkas or swinging a heavy stick really has improved my karate stances. One of the katas I love is an Aikido jo kata (sorry, don't know what it is called) it is beautiful when done well.

I like to learn defence agains sticks, knives etc. for obvious reasons.
Sharon

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#125574 - 04/25/03 06:07 PM Re: Weapons training
Jamoni Offline
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Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
CATO: "So we now think weapons training teaches us principles that empty hand techniques don't? Such as...what exactly??"
ALSO CATO: "I think the value of training with weapons is mainly two fold. First, they hurt when they hit you - anyone ever had a bokken on the forearm or tanto in the ribs? And second they are great equalisers. A large aikidoka who enjoys muscling his/her way through empty hand techniques can't do so with weapons. So, weapons training forces you to improve your technique by showing up your deficiencies."
Principles I had in mind were things like: knives will cut you up. You have to get inside of a clubs arc. Etc.
Cato, devil's advocate becomes you. You "assisted" your teachers as uke a lot, didn't you?

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#125575 - 04/26/03 02:46 AM Re: Weapons training
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Here comes Senseilou and you better get your mop and bowl. I didn't even do anything this time, or say anything to be picked on. I see you Aikidoka now, evade the attack and jump on someone when they aren't here. Taking advantage of my abscence. What would O'Sensei say?
Here is something real quick, like it or not, Aikido came out of Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu. I once studied with two Sensei from Japan, they were here for a week of demonstrations. The first class they taught was this. Ikkyo, done with a boken, attacked by an overhead cut, you pari the cut with your boken-then cut their boken to the ground-cut off their head. The Sensei who spoke no English just demonstrated every Aikido technique done with Boken first, then with empty hands. The Boken is an extension of yourself, in any art. Anything done with a weapon can be done empty hands and vice versa. Put a boken in your hand and work Iriminage, then without, and you will see a definte improvement in your technique. Is it necessary, no, but helpful yes. I personally do things like using Nitombo(2 sticks)Tombo(1 stick) Yawara, hon-bo(short stick) and work all my Joint locks with them to see what I can see. I also use an Okinawan Tonfa(police night stick) and practice joint locks. Even did with Nunchuka, it was not necessary, but it showed me much about the joint locks and was fun to boot. And if you guys keep attacking me in public, with your mops and bowls, I am breaking out the Shuchu, see if you know what that is!!!!!!

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#125576 - 04/26/03 03:23 AM Re: Weapons training
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
A shuchu! I believe Cato might even have one. But since I don't...

I'm running!

-raccoon

P.S.:

Cato:
[QUOTE]PPS Hmm...I think you may have something there. [/QUOTE]
I knew there is something you were getting at all along, and...


Jamoni: Good one, I think you nailed the devil's advocate! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Sensei Lou: Sorry for having the fun at your expense, Cato started it, so if you want to test your shuchu, start with him!

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#125577 - 04/26/03 09:44 AM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Devil's advocate? Me? I think there has been some mistake...

And if anyone comes near me with their Shuchu, I'll introduce them to some Shoe pie (Well, i would if I could kick above the ankle without giving myself a hernia)

Budo

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#125578 - 04/27/03 02:37 AM Re: Weapons training
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
So I am guessing no one knows what a Shuchu is, and its not my dog. Beware then, the Shuchu will get you!!

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#125579 - 04/27/03 05:38 AM Re: Weapons training
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Cato, you look oh so innocent! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG] of course you weren't the devil's advocate, how could we make such horrible accusation!

BTW, if sensei lou decides to get you with his shuchu, I don't believe he will use it within kicking distance [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Sensei Lou,
Not totally sure what a shuchu is. If it's Japanese, I have 2 guesses, both of them allows you go "get em'" at long distance.

But then I don't really think you are into woowoo stuff such as ki extension and NTKO, so I really only have one guess left. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

-raccoon

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#125580 - 04/28/03 01:24 AM Re: Weapons training
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Ok I'll let the the secret out. A Shuchu is an Okinawan Weapon, that looks like a Kubotan, cut in half lenth-wise. The flat part of the Shuchu sits in your palm, there is a point at the bottom, and squared off at the top. There is a 1" handle at the the top that fits between your fingers. You can spin the Shuchu so the point is at the top. It is mostly concealed in your hand and has about 5 sharp edges on it. There is a key ring at the top so you attach your keys to it, similar to a kubotan but this one, once mastered, can spin in your hand. What is so neat about this, I have been searched, scanned and gone through metal detectors, and have never had it taken away, and yes, it has been on planes as well, it doesn't resemble a weapon, but a strange keychain. Once you practice with it, you can apply serious pain with it, as you use the sharp edges on different target areas. Thats a Shuchu

[This message has been edited by senseilou (edited 04-28-2003).]

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#125581 - 05/06/03 04:14 AM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Similar in many respects to a GSD then, Lou [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Once you've mastered that you can do an awful lot of damage to someone.

Budo

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#125582 - 05/07/03 01:34 AM Re: Weapons training
cerckert Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 6
Loc: Huntington, NY, United States
I think weapons training is important to learn the capabilities of the weapon so as to understand what an attacker is capable of if that weapon is in their possesion. The better you know you enemy the better you can evalauate the situation.

Also on a more speculative note: after training with various weapons you are falmilar with how to hold and attack with them. With this knowledge, after the attacker discloses their weapon based on their first noticable technique characteristics you could tell if your dealing with a trained killer or a nija turtle wanna be.

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#125583 - 05/08/03 10:13 PM Re: Weapons training
Joe Jutsu Offline
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Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I'm just writing to brag, sort of... I just had a great weapons class, we were working on jo nage. It's probably been a year and a half since I first worked on these throws. Several students, myself included, were amazed at how powerful the throws are. And the moves are just like the unarmed versions, same movement but with a jo. So from a physics standpoint, I guess this makes sense because a longer lever arm (the jo)is at work. I didn't learn the full names of the techniques, but they were basically just zenpou nage, kiri kaeishi, and something resembling a shihonage, I believe (excuse my spelling, but these maybe foreign names compared to what you know, but this is being discussed in a different thread anyway). So while tonight's weapons class may not have been the most practical "on the street" type of practice session, it was a blast, and certainly not a "complete waste of time."

Joe

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#125584 - 05/05/04 04:22 AM Re: Weapons training
Aikiscotsman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 22
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Aikido without Aikiken and Aikijo is only Taijutsu not Aikido. There is a very very spesific reason why the founder devised all these jujitsu tech with traditional weapons schools to develop Aikido. it was not a case of he developed Aikido and put some weapons in to it after there is no Aikido without the three ways taijutsu, aikiken, aikijo.
Unfortunatly there where a lot of students who never got to see or study any or very little of the founders Aikiken,Aikijo. So many incorparated other martial systems in to there taijutsu so they have got somthing very different.

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#125585 - 05/05/04 05:47 AM Re: Weapons training
Aikiscotsman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 22
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Its quite funny to here people ask if weapons can help technique in aikido, when Weapons are Aikido think of the triangle, three points taijutsu,jo,ken the three levels of maai and the three principles of aikido hanmi(from ken). kokyu , awaze

I feel so sorry for all the people out there who have been cheated in there Training by only learning aiki taijutsu. There is absolutly no difference between moving empty handed and moving with ken and jo they are one and the same

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#125586 - 06/15/04 07:25 AM Re: Weapons training
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
The ju jutsu class that follows ours use bottles, knives and baseball bats, more suitable to todays weapon attacks, but, when i watched 1 of their classes, the techniques used were the same

alot of kotegashi, all techiques which I would use myself for defense.

So I guess you are learning the principles of defense, empty handed or armed, the weapon being used is acedemic, as the principles are the same.

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#125587 - 06/21/04 02:37 AM Re: Weapons training
reaperblack Offline
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Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
all weapons can be divided into short weapons and long weapons. it doesn't matter if it is a bo, jo, bat, mop, sword, whatever. This is one of the best advantages that aikido has is the generality, too many martial arts spend too much time practising specifics. There is no time to figure out the exact make up of a weapon in combat, it needs to be instict. Sure the motions are the same in aikido (if the nage knows how to attack properly) but the distance can be shortened without a weapon. A yokoman (sorry about the spelling) isn't the same as a bat swing, the motion is. But without the weapons practise technique becomes sloppy you know a hand won't cut you when some does a tsuki but if they are holding a 12 inch knife you make realize that they just slit your wrist, because you entered to straight rather than reaching across.
Aikido is based on weapons defenses, because they are worst case scenario, if you can handle that you cand deal with a drunk and a beer bottle!!(shomen)

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#125588 - 06/21/04 11:43 PM Re: Weapons training
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
[QUOTE]and even less point in training with a bokken.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it is kind of pointless to study Aikido without the bokken as Aikido is based on/derived from sword cuts. Beginning students should spend a lot of time working with the bokken, perhaps even before learning techniques.

Jim Mc Coy

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#125589 - 07/19/04 06:36 AM Re: Weapons training
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Weapons training in aikido is pointless. There is no value in learning techniques with a Jo staff, and even less point in training with a bokken. Everything that is learnt with weapons can be learnt equally as well without them.[/QUOTE]

Its funny then how most of the best aikido teachers with the smoothest irimi, most powerful throws (and hip movement) and best understanding of application of ki all heavily emphasise the riai system of taijutsu and weapons together. Must be coincidence eh?



[This message has been edited by AikiGhost (edited 07-19-2004).]

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#125590 - 07/19/04 05:33 PM Re: Weapons training
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have to disagree.
The empty hand and weapons forms are one and the same.
Proper form in one means proper form (and effectiveness) in the other.

At a seminar with Frank Doran, quite a few years ago, he said something to the effect of, "always practice empty handed techniques as though you are holding a weapon and always practive weapons techniques as though you were empty handed".

I believe his point was regarding extension, maai, timing, etc.

As has been pointed out on another reply, it's not Aikido without the weapons.

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#125591 - 07/20/04 01:49 AM Re: Weapons training
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Doran Sensei was instrumental in my studying technique in relation to sword movement. I agree they are one and the same in the dojo. Outside the swod cuts need to be applied a bit differently. If you want some good reading, and an interesting perspective on this, read "My Hand is my Sword" by O'Sensei Robert Trias. For those who don't know O'Sensei Trias was the first person to open a Karate Dojo in the U.S. in Phoenix Arizona. The book is not about Aikido obviously but it gives a great way to look at using your body as a weapon. In this regard its not style specific. You can easily make the connection to any art.

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#125592 - 07/20/04 06:24 PM Re: Weapons training
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
... "My Hand is my Sword" by O'Sensei Robert Trias...QUOTE]

That's funny because I was also going to reference my initial teacher, John Rogers of the Ireland Aikikai, who always talks of "te katana"/hand blade, it's importance for extension, proper movement from the center, strong center and <whole> body movement for effective, powerful technique.

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#125593 - 09/13/04 08:59 PM Re: Weapons training
Anonymous
Unregistered


if bokken, jo are obselete, then arnt the karate style from the hip punches also? lol, maybe all aikido is a waste of time then? i havent ever seen anyone attack like that in the street...do you karateka really attack like that in competitions??? forgive me i dont know much about karate.
in fact, while im on it, forget about attacks holding the wrist too, and lunging punches from 3 meters away......and holding your arms out at the end of the punch.....

i dont intend to upset anyone, aikido is my base art, and ive trained in it for about 7 years now, its as realistic as you train it to be!

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#125594 - 09/17/04 01:08 PM Re: Weapons training
SeiserL Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Marietta, GA
IMHO, whether you train with empty hands or wooden weapons, you are training the self and the technique.

Being able to apply the techqniue in a variety of context and through a variety of weapons helps develop timing and distance.

Besides there is a real edge confronted and developed from weapons work. Most people I know who don't like weapons work is because it brings up their own fears of facing a weapon. Facing our fears is a part of the training.

Training in weapons, whether you like it or not, is training is discipline and tradition.

Personally, I love it.

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#125595 - 09/17/04 01:55 PM Re: Weapons training
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Punching from the chamber(hand at the hip or at chest level)is no more or less useless than using a cross handed grab in Aiki. For a Karateka, there is form and there is function, kata or forms can teach both. One chambers his punches in order to learn proper hip rotation for punching and to teach the line of attack for your punch. It helps the student learn how to punch. Also in karate every movement means something, so when the hand goes back to the chamber, it could be pulling someone into a punch or kick. That is one explaination, there are many more. Grabbing someones wrist today is not very practical. Very few people attack that way. In your reference, you have never seen a person punch from the chamber, I have never seen anyone grab a persons opposite wrist in a fight. Both are training tools. The cross grab was originally done to stop the drawing of the sword. We don't go around wearing swords so that is not a practical attack. However, it teaches a static attack, and is good for beginners to learn how to get a lock, without having to move their body like they do for a punch. Many systems use grabs before they teach punches because you don't have to deal with a moving attack, or work on timing. So both have their value as training tools.. The one thing you should always notice is nothing is as it seems, especially in Karate. Unless you study the art its hard to understand why there are things like the chamber and horse stance.

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#125596 - 09/22/04 10:02 PM Re: Weapons training
Anonymous
Unregistered


i agree, theres something in all arts thats usefull...now only if i lived for several hundred years to learn them all....

seiserl, i know what you mean about the fear in training with weapons, we all remeber our first affair with the live tanto....in fact i still feel the same way about it now lol


lol, i understand the mechanics of punching etc, and the idea that holds to wrists are a training tool for the develpoment of good basic technique. When i said that weapons/wristgrabs/karate style punches were all useless i meant it in response to the origional statement by cato, "all weapons training in aikido is pointless"...i took this as a not serious statement and responded sarcastically! in fact, my sensei swears by bokken suburi, i get funny looks doing shomenuchi whilst going shopping, walking the dog etc. i feel that weapons training is imperetive to get the feel of aikido

you say that karate has many hidden secrets that arnt apparent to people who arn't practitioners of the art. I was lucky enought to obtain some Sensei Dilmann seminars on tape, whereupon he broke down several kata into there practical applications.
wondered if you'd seen/are expereinced in these, very interesting stuff! I thought that some of the practical applications of kata (lol ive no idea what they are or what they were called, and the vhs is all the way downstairs lol) looked remarkably like aikido techniques!!!

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#125597 - 09/25/04 07:26 PM Re: Weapons training
swright Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
A totally understandable response raccoon. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I think the value of training with weapons is mainly two fold. A large aikidoka who enjoys muscling his/her way through empty hand techniques can't do so with weapons. So, weapons training forces you to improve your technique by showing up your deficiencies.

Comments anyone?

Budo
[/QUOTE]

Cato

Regardless of the weapon (Jo,Katana...baseball bat, machete) Training with weapons is very important when learning about distance (from your opponent).

S

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#125598 - 10/26/04 03:36 AM Re: Weapons training
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think any one who thinks weapons training is obsolete should read The Structure of Aikido by Gaku Homma sensei.

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#125599 - 11/17/04 07:49 AM Re: Weapons training
Anonymous
Unregistered


There is no value in learning techniques period unless you learn the principles behind them well enough to apply them to appropriate situations. That is the point or learning anything in martial arts.

>Everything that is learnt with weapons can be learnt equally as well without them.

"learnt equally well"?! I agree that weapons training is not absolutely necessary to learn aikido, but aikido is difficult to learn, and any teaching aid is welcome as far as I'm concerned.

>So we now think weapons training teaches us principles that empty hand techniques don't? Such as...what exactly??

Just how long are the arms of the attackers in your dojo?!!! By that same logic: Why do baseball player's swing two bats? You only will only be allowed to bring one to the plate...

>aren't we in danger of turning martial arts into some kind of historical preservation society

SOMEthings should be preserved. If you cannot see the value in something maybe we should drop it but maybe you need to look a little deeper first.

My notes on the benifits of training weapons from this thread are:
1)teaching aid
2)distance training
-You have to get inside of a clubs arc.
3)they are great equalisers
-they hurt when they hit you

Someone picked on holding your arms out at the end of the punch. I used to think this was odd too. I recently got to hit full force against a federal martial wearing one of those red suits where you can go all out. I find that you need to leave your arm straightened just a little longer than I had been to really get a driving impact. Comments?

Lastly, someone said they have never seen anyone grab a persons opposite wrist in a fight. One of my favorite ways to get in on someone is to use a cross grab to grab their lead arm and bring it down while you hit them with your other hand. If someone tried that on you - you can move that lead hand and your lead leg (assuming same side) laterally away as they commit their weight and you'll find that they fall into ushiro position. You can even strike back with your other elbow and bait them to grab that wrist too!

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-17-2004).]

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