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#125588 - 06/21/04 11:43 PM Re: Weapons training
JAMJTX Offline

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
[QUOTE]and even less point in training with a bokken.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it is kind of pointless to study Aikido without the bokken as Aikido is based on/derived from sword cuts. Beginning students should spend a lot of time working with the bokken, perhaps even before learning techniques.

Jim Mc Coy

#125589 - 07/19/04 06:36 AM Re: Weapons training

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Weapons training in aikido is pointless. There is no value in learning techniques with a Jo staff, and even less point in training with a bokken. Everything that is learnt with weapons can be learnt equally as well without them.[/QUOTE]

Its funny then how most of the best aikido teachers with the smoothest irimi, most powerful throws (and hip movement) and best understanding of application of ki all heavily emphasise the riai system of taijutsu and weapons together. Must be coincidence eh?

[This message has been edited by AikiGhost (edited 07-19-2004).]

#125590 - 07/19/04 05:33 PM Re: Weapons training

I have to disagree.
The empty hand and weapons forms are one and the same.
Proper form in one means proper form (and effectiveness) in the other.

At a seminar with Frank Doran, quite a few years ago, he said something to the effect of, "always practice empty handed techniques as though you are holding a weapon and always practive weapons techniques as though you were empty handed".

I believe his point was regarding extension, maai, timing, etc.

As has been pointed out on another reply, it's not Aikido without the weapons.

#125591 - 07/20/04 01:49 AM Re: Weapons training
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Doran Sensei was instrumental in my studying technique in relation to sword movement. I agree they are one and the same in the dojo. Outside the swod cuts need to be applied a bit differently. If you want some good reading, and an interesting perspective on this, read "My Hand is my Sword" by O'Sensei Robert Trias. For those who don't know O'Sensei Trias was the first person to open a Karate Dojo in the U.S. in Phoenix Arizona. The book is not about Aikido obviously but it gives a great way to look at using your body as a weapon. In this regard its not style specific. You can easily make the connection to any art.

#125592 - 07/20/04 06:24 PM Re: Weapons training

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
... "My Hand is my Sword" by O'Sensei Robert Trias...QUOTE]

That's funny because I was also going to reference my initial teacher, John Rogers of the Ireland Aikikai, who always talks of "te katana"/hand blade, it's importance for extension, proper movement from the center, strong center and <whole> body movement for effective, powerful technique.

#125593 - 09/13/04 08:59 PM Re: Weapons training

if bokken, jo are obselete, then arnt the karate style from the hip punches also? lol, maybe all aikido is a waste of time then? i havent ever seen anyone attack like that in the you karateka really attack like that in competitions??? forgive me i dont know much about karate.
in fact, while im on it, forget about attacks holding the wrist too, and lunging punches from 3 meters away......and holding your arms out at the end of the punch.....

i dont intend to upset anyone, aikido is my base art, and ive trained in it for about 7 years now, its as realistic as you train it to be!

#125594 - 09/17/04 01:08 PM Re: Weapons training
SeiserL Offline

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Marietta, GA
IMHO, whether you train with empty hands or wooden weapons, you are training the self and the technique.

Being able to apply the techqniue in a variety of context and through a variety of weapons helps develop timing and distance.

Besides there is a real edge confronted and developed from weapons work. Most people I know who don't like weapons work is because it brings up their own fears of facing a weapon. Facing our fears is a part of the training.

Training in weapons, whether you like it or not, is training is discipline and tradition.

Personally, I love it.

#125595 - 09/17/04 01:55 PM Re: Weapons training
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Punching from the chamber(hand at the hip or at chest level)is no more or less useless than using a cross handed grab in Aiki. For a Karateka, there is form and there is function, kata or forms can teach both. One chambers his punches in order to learn proper hip rotation for punching and to teach the line of attack for your punch. It helps the student learn how to punch. Also in karate every movement means something, so when the hand goes back to the chamber, it could be pulling someone into a punch or kick. That is one explaination, there are many more. Grabbing someones wrist today is not very practical. Very few people attack that way. In your reference, you have never seen a person punch from the chamber, I have never seen anyone grab a persons opposite wrist in a fight. Both are training tools. The cross grab was originally done to stop the drawing of the sword. We don't go around wearing swords so that is not a practical attack. However, it teaches a static attack, and is good for beginners to learn how to get a lock, without having to move their body like they do for a punch. Many systems use grabs before they teach punches because you don't have to deal with a moving attack, or work on timing. So both have their value as training tools.. The one thing you should always notice is nothing is as it seems, especially in Karate. Unless you study the art its hard to understand why there are things like the chamber and horse stance.

#125596 - 09/22/04 10:02 PM Re: Weapons training

i agree, theres something in all arts thats only if i lived for several hundred years to learn them all....

seiserl, i know what you mean about the fear in training with weapons, we all remeber our first affair with the live fact i still feel the same way about it now lol

lol, i understand the mechanics of punching etc, and the idea that holds to wrists are a training tool for the develpoment of good basic technique. When i said that weapons/wristgrabs/karate style punches were all useless i meant it in response to the origional statement by cato, "all weapons training in aikido is pointless"...i took this as a not serious statement and responded sarcastically! in fact, my sensei swears by bokken suburi, i get funny looks doing shomenuchi whilst going shopping, walking the dog etc. i feel that weapons training is imperetive to get the feel of aikido

you say that karate has many hidden secrets that arnt apparent to people who arn't practitioners of the art. I was lucky enought to obtain some Sensei Dilmann seminars on tape, whereupon he broke down several kata into there practical applications.
wondered if you'd seen/are expereinced in these, very interesting stuff! I thought that some of the practical applications of kata (lol ive no idea what they are or what they were called, and the vhs is all the way downstairs lol) looked remarkably like aikido techniques!!!

#125597 - 09/25/04 07:26 PM Re: Weapons training
swright Offline

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 14
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
A totally understandable response raccoon. [IMG][/IMG]

I think the value of training with weapons is mainly two fold. A large aikidoka who enjoys muscling his/her way through empty hand techniques can't do so with weapons. So, weapons training forces you to improve your technique by showing up your deficiencies.

Comments anyone?



Regardless of the weapon (Jo, bat, machete) Training with weapons is very important when learning about distance (from your opponent).


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