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#125568 - 04/16/03 10:52 PM Re: Weapons training
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Cato, for one, almost ANY weapon dramatically affects the distance issue.
Traditional weapons: Jo, Katana, Tanto, Jitte, Manriku Gusari, etc...
Modern weapons: Baseball bat, machete, kitchen knife, lead pipe, motorcycle chain, belt, etc...
Weapons training in aikido teaches principles which can and should be adapted to modern situations. It is not the choice of weapon that is important, but the principles it is used to illustrate.

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#125569 - 04/17/03 12:23 PM Re: Weapons training
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I agree with Jamoni. I feel that my club has been stressing weapons too much lately, I much prefer to learn and work on unarmed techniques. But Aikido teaches you to move and how to coordinate your mind and body, so I do see a value to training with weapons. If nothing else, practicing with weapons IMHO gives you a greater sensitivity to maai, but then again, I've only been practicing for about two years so what do I know [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]. Just my 2 cents...

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#125570 - 04/17/03 02:38 PM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
So we now think weapons training teaches us principles that empty hand techniques don't? Such as...what exactly?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

If I might just try to put this weapons training into some kind of practical perspective - indulge me for a moment.

Suppose I'm sat having lunch in a restaurant when in walks senseilou. He recognises me for the argumentative, opinionated and patronising Limey SOB that I undoubtedly must appear to be, and, quite justifiably, decides to educate me.

Now suppose I see him coming and think "Ooops, I'm in for it here" what should I do? I can sieze the fish knife(improviseed tanto) and proceed to try to fillet him, but is that defence proportional to the attack, no. So it is it in keeping with aikido philosophy, again - no.

Alternatively, I could grab a conveniently placed mop and set about mopping the floor with him (get it? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]). All well and good, but suppose I mis-read his intentions and he was coming over to borrow the salt? I never let him anywhere near me, let alone initiate an attack. Giving him a face full of dirty mop water wasn't the best thing I could have done after all. I've ruined his suit for nothing. Again not really in keeping with aikido.

Now he's really mad (who wouldn't be?) and grabs a knife to get some summary justice. I could arm myself in a similar fashion, in which case I will lose because my aikido training doesn't adequately teach me how to use a knife and he is a skilled fighter with one. Or I could try to employ my empty hand techniques, the ones that make up the vast bulk of my training and which I should be most proficient in. I may well lose again, but I stand a better chance because I'm using my best skills base to defend myself. Aikido is essentially about empty hand techniques.

So, remind me - what did we say was the value of training with weapons?

Budo

[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 04-17-2003).]

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#125571 - 04/17/03 02:48 PM Re: Weapons training
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Cato! Are you wicked or are you wicked!? I can't stop laffing and I have an Exam to write in a few hours!!

Don't have time to dig into the principle stuff, but in the above senario... never mind. If sensei Lou is coming at me, I don't care if he is borrowing salt (and you know how he is going to use it anyway [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]) or educating me, I am going to use my empty BOWEL technique - spot the washroom and pretend it's real urgent - RUN for it!! Oh, and let's just hope there is a big window there! A true warrior should always check out his escape route ahead anyway!

-raccoon [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

P.S> So much for a Dan grade in aikido, don't you understand the principle of avoiding attacks all together? LOL.

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-17-2003).]

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#125572 - 04/24/03 05:14 AM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
A totally understandable response raccoon. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Now, cards on the table time. I also think weapons training in aikido is important, but not for learning how to use weapons. I think the value of training with weapons is mainly two fold. First, they hurt when they hit you - anyone ever had a bokken on the forearm or tanto in the ribs? And second they are great equalisers. A large aikidoka who enjoys muscling his/her way through empty hand techniques can't do so with weapons. So, weapons training forces you to improve your technique by showing up your deficiencies.

Comments anyone?

Budo

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#125573 - 04/24/03 12:49 PM Re: Weapons training
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know very little about Aikido, my training is wado and jujitsu based, but I LOVE learning and performing katas with knife, jo and nunchukkas. Not for any practical reason but just because I enjoy it.

By products of doing them are: increased wrist strength, better co-ordination and trying to maintain a good stance whilst twirling nunchukkas or swinging a heavy stick really has improved my karate stances. One of the katas I love is an Aikido jo kata (sorry, don't know what it is called) it is beautiful when done well.

I like to learn defence agains sticks, knives etc. for obvious reasons.
Sharon

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#125574 - 04/25/03 06:07 PM Re: Weapons training
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
CATO: "So we now think weapons training teaches us principles that empty hand techniques don't? Such as...what exactly??"
ALSO CATO: "I think the value of training with weapons is mainly two fold. First, they hurt when they hit you - anyone ever had a bokken on the forearm or tanto in the ribs? And second they are great equalisers. A large aikidoka who enjoys muscling his/her way through empty hand techniques can't do so with weapons. So, weapons training forces you to improve your technique by showing up your deficiencies."
Principles I had in mind were things like: knives will cut you up. You have to get inside of a clubs arc. Etc.
Cato, devil's advocate becomes you. You "assisted" your teachers as uke a lot, didn't you?

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#125575 - 04/26/03 02:46 AM Re: Weapons training
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Here comes Senseilou and you better get your mop and bowl. I didn't even do anything this time, or say anything to be picked on. I see you Aikidoka now, evade the attack and jump on someone when they aren't here. Taking advantage of my abscence. What would O'Sensei say?
Here is something real quick, like it or not, Aikido came out of Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu. I once studied with two Sensei from Japan, they were here for a week of demonstrations. The first class they taught was this. Ikkyo, done with a boken, attacked by an overhead cut, you pari the cut with your boken-then cut their boken to the ground-cut off their head. The Sensei who spoke no English just demonstrated every Aikido technique done with Boken first, then with empty hands. The Boken is an extension of yourself, in any art. Anything done with a weapon can be done empty hands and vice versa. Put a boken in your hand and work Iriminage, then without, and you will see a definte improvement in your technique. Is it necessary, no, but helpful yes. I personally do things like using Nitombo(2 sticks)Tombo(1 stick) Yawara, hon-bo(short stick) and work all my Joint locks with them to see what I can see. I also use an Okinawan Tonfa(police night stick) and practice joint locks. Even did with Nunchuka, it was not necessary, but it showed me much about the joint locks and was fun to boot. And if you guys keep attacking me in public, with your mops and bowls, I am breaking out the Shuchu, see if you know what that is!!!!!!

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#125576 - 04/26/03 03:23 AM Re: Weapons training
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
A shuchu! I believe Cato might even have one. But since I don't...

I'm running!

-raccoon

P.S.:

Cato:
[QUOTE]PPS Hmm...I think you may have something there. [/QUOTE]
I knew there is something you were getting at all along, and...


Jamoni: Good one, I think you nailed the devil's advocate! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Sensei Lou: Sorry for having the fun at your expense, Cato started it, so if you want to test your shuchu, start with him!

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#125577 - 04/26/03 09:44 AM Re: Weapons training
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Devil's advocate? Me? I think there has been some mistake...

And if anyone comes near me with their Shuchu, I'll introduce them to some Shoe pie (Well, i would if I could kick above the ankle without giving myself a hernia)

Budo

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