Weapons training in aikido is pointless. There is no value in learning techniques with a Jo staff, and even less point in training with a bokken. Everything that is learnt with weapons can be learnt equally as well without them.

As young as aikido is, it's still generally considered a traditional art form. It's a fact that O'Sensei is a very accomplished swordsman, and it's my understanding that his education in swordmenship has great impact on development of his art.

I don't disagree you can learn all aikido empty hand movements without using jo or bokken. But as far as I understand, if you leave out the weapons, you are leaving out part of the art.

Much like you can forget about katas and still learn to punch and kick, no? Then why is it necessary to learn karate kata?

yours in aiki
-raccoon

P.S.

[QUOTE]
Weapons training in aikido is pointless. There is no value in learning techniques with a Jo staff, and even less point in training with a bokken. Everything that is learnt with weapons can be learnt equally as well without them.
[/QUOTE]
Now you have me curious. How do you get "less point" out of something pointLESS/ has NO value? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

P.P.S:
I just got send to train with a 8th Dan kobudo kiyoshi, he teaches kata and kihon in weapons only, until you are sandan. Guess who sended me? My full contact karate master who confess to be retarded at katas, and sees little value in them. So why would he tell me to augment my trainings with a dojo that purely practice weapons kata, when he knows how "busy" I am and have such hard time keeping up with his "special tournament regiment"? (Then obviously he doesn't know I am a internet junkie...)

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[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-11-2003).]

I think I'm going to have to disagree, raccoon. Karate kata is a way of traininmg empty hand techniques, techniques that could reasonably be expected to be employed in the course of defending yourself. They are still relevant to modern day life, and they therefore have a useful role within karate training.

Weapons training is no longer relevant. The chances of meeting an irate maniac carrying a jo staff or katana are, I think, quite slim. That would seem to make any weapons training, in any art, rather pointless.

The likliehood of being in possession of your jo when attacked are so small as to make training self defence using the jo a waste of time, effectively of no value.

Similarly, you are never going to use a katana for self defence, and should you be unfortunate enough to meet an attacker with a katana you would be well advised to keep well away, so training with the katana or bokken is even less relevant than with a jo, in other words, it has even less point.

Aikidoka are training with obsolete weapons, Why?

Budo

PS I hope my syntax meets the required standard this time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I am afraid I will have to disagree, too [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

If an aspect of an art has little use in self defense, then the martial arts practioners should drop that aspect all together?

FYI, shihan send me to study katas in Kobudo, an ancient art form that use old farm tools as weapons. The only place you will find those "farm tools" these days are in martial arts store, and some of them are illegal to possess in Canada. You can get a license to by a gun; you don't need a license to poccess a katana; you CANNOT in ANYWAY legally own some of these "farm tools". (I own a few [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG])

So... should the art kobudo be wiped off the face of the planet all together?

I speculate, if I can use a jo to defense myself, I can use a mop; if I can use a tonfa (farm tool), I can use my thermo mug. Similar principles - bone extension to strike, aline it at an angle to block. Swing mug out by loosening grip to swing and strike... it can adapt.

But even if it can't be adapted... are we arguing the only value of budo training is self defense? My answer is no.

-raccoon

P.S. Who am I to correct your syntax? I just thought you Englishman can inform us uneducated Chinese [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

P.P.S- I think weapons also helps us understand some of the moves. At least for me, I find myself understand some of the moves much better after I've repeat them with weapons - it also helps me to see where they come from (samurai H2H combats).

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-11-2003).]

raccoon, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't we in danger of turning martial arts into some kind of historical preservation society, when they should be a self preservation? If we keep practising because "it has always been done that way" then we would still be hitting each other with rocks, martial arts need to evolve to some extent otherwise they become useless.

If you need to adapt the use of a jo to a mop, why not train with a mop in the first place? It would be more usefull [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

PS It is a peculiar trait of the English that we think we can teach the world how to speak our language. In truth many "foreigners" speak better English than wot we do. I'm sure you could teach me a lot.

PPS Hmm...I think you may have something there.

I encourage everyone to visit www.aikiweb.com, where there is a link to an article entitled "Why Women Should Wield Weapons" which really applies to this thread. I'd be curious to see what you guys think, especially the more experienced practitioners of the arts out there.

Yep, nothing wrong in using a mop. But a jo is moe adaptable. Like the Chinese Gongfu styles who use staff and farming hoes.

You might say there is no need for JuJutsuka to use the Jutte. I disagrre. The police toshu keibo is based upon this weapon.

Short of firearms, bugei and kobujutsu can be adapted - tanto for knives, jutte and sai for truncheon and similar sized opbjects, club and kon for pool cues and so on. More importantly the princciples leanred will mean ordinary implements can be used as weapons.

Pen for tekko and yawara, yarawa for truncheon, belts and canes used as per hapkido and kuk sool.

Okay, we can adapt an everyday object to act as an ad hoc weapon. Why would we want to? Surely we learn martial arts to defend ourselves using empty hand skills. What happens if there is no convenient household appliance with which to disembowl your attacker? Shouldn't training concentrate on there being no weapons to hand, adapted or otherwise. That is after all much more likely to be the case.

Budo

You are saying you are most likely to engage into fights where you are surrounded by nothing but a plain, smooth ground, with no stick or stone or whatever on it? Like... say... your dojo?

If you are on duty, you have radio on hand, that's weapon.

If you are doing homework, you have your fountain pen handy, that's weapon.

If you are eating... hell, you have a table, a knife, a fork, or chopstic... everything can be weapon.

What we can use in a survival situation is only limited by our lack of knowledge and creativity.

-raccoon

And I suppose you recommend I take on would attackers using a pencil, a stick of chewing gum and a piece of elastic band? (actually, that would make a half decent pencil "rocket" launcher, wouldn't it. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] )

Why be creative in a self defence situation when all you need to be is effective? Whatever else you happen to find yourself surrounded by, you are very likely to have your hands and feet with you, so surely it makes sense to make them your first choice weapons?

I'd much rather defend myself successfully using a boring old punch than I would get creamed trying an innovative double mop sweep and pencil eye gouge finishing technique. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo