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#125540 - 04/12/03 02:07 AM Re: Morality
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
look at the values your dad taught you, you keep some, some are let go, so if people aren't going to listen to their Dad 100% why in hell will they listen to me?[/QUOTE]

Oh [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG]

You know, sensei Lou, I've never thought about that one [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

-raccoon

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#125541 - 04/14/03 04:49 AM Re: Morality
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Okay, let me see if I've got this. It is up to our sensei to show us what moral behaviour is, and to encourage us to behave morally. Whether or not we follow their lead is a matter for us alone, and presumably depends upon our character.

Therefore if we accept their version of morality we will become as morally sound as they are. Suppose then our sensei has a distorted view of morality? Or that we reject their take on morality. Is there anything in our practice of aikido that might lead us to a more universally accepted understanding of what it is to be "moral"?

If a martial artist teaches the techniques of their art, does he/she also need to teach anything else? If so, Are sensei really just preachers with attitude?

Or is all just about fighting?

Budo [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

I guess you got what I said, but then you've also changed my thinking since then [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]


My understanding is, OíSensei created a martial art that has physical, mental, and spiritual aspects. Itís an art that encompasses total pacifism in all 3 of those aspects. Before, if someone picks fight with you and it has come to a point where itís too late to just walk away, you can either be a defenseless victim who gives up; or you can be a part of the fight and have a fair chance. But either way you are still wrong. It takes two to abuse; it takes two to confront/ fight. When OíSensei creates aikido, he gives people one more option: to give up, to engage, or to harmonize.

Aikido keiko is very symbolic. The ethic, the mental and spiritual natures of aikido are ingrained into the aikido katas. Donít be there; step off the line. Blend in, harmonize. Face the same way, see from the same angle. Guide gently, donít force or damage. Those are all part of the lesson. You donít initiate attack in aikido: whoever initiates an attack has already accepted the fact that he is to be defeated, he is to be the uke, the person end up crashing nose first into the mats. By committing aggression, youíve already lose your battle, at least your battle as an aikidoka.

My point is, the moral lesson are all encrypted into the katas. Sure, sensei have to be role model. They learn how to behave in dojo by watching people ahead of them, and they pass it onto us. Those are etiquette. But the essence of aikido Ė the spiritual, mental, and physical disciplines, shouldnít be left to individual sensei to explore or interpret. I agree there should be a core, universal moral code in a given art, especially in aikido, when itís often deemed as more spiritual than it is physical/ martial. And I think it lies in the katas, the things handed down by OíSensei for us to practice.

But then I am just a 5th kyu and blah blah blah. In short I donít know what I am talking about. And Cato, you are reforming me. You are going to have to deal with my sensei!

-raccoon

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#125542 - 04/14/03 09:21 AM Re: Morality
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
First let me nail one of my bugbears here and now. raccoon, where did you get the idea that as a 5th kyu you have nothing of value to say, or that your opinions are of less value than anyone else's? What you say is as valid as what anyone else has to say, so stop being so self depreciating. There is no need!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

I think jamoni has a good point, it is in our own interests to look after the well being of others as well as our own. I think this is the moral message of aikido, regardless of any personal code of conduct. Aikido teaches us to defend ourselves, but to do so proportionately and reasonably. To do otherwise is to miss the point of aikido.

Budo

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#125543 - 04/14/03 05:24 PM Re: Morality
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
eek, don't think I've seen Cato this mad before @_@

Alright, I got the idea. You won't see those again in my future posts.

-cody

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#125544 - 04/15/03 12:17 AM Re: Morality
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Cato.........I am wondering that with an appropriate response that Aiki offers, couldn't that lead to the impression that it really doesn't work? Here is what I am getting at. Aiki responses can be done in stages. Restraint to hurt to injure to break. Karate on the other hand is not in degrees, when you hit someone it isn't 50% or 60% it always 100%. In Aiki you can apply at 50% and see if its appropriate and always add to it,(which is why I enjoy the locking arts because I don't have to break a wrist every time, but can restrain him. I think it takes much more talent to do this)But if one views this and the Aikidoka is constantly having to add or adapt could it be viewed as ineefective?

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#125545 - 04/15/03 05:34 PM Re: Morality
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I would say that like any art aikido can only been seen as ineffective if the techniques fail, which all too often they look as if they do. Aikido often gives the impression that uke is "faking it". It really is an art only for the initiated.

Watching a demonstration of aikido technique is often very unconvincing. Taking the part of uke in one is a different matter. Aikido lacks the "big finish" of ju jutsu or karate, and it suffers because it. I don't think that applying locks by degrees is what makes aikido sometimes look ineffective, I think it is applying locks per se that makes it seem so.

Budo

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