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#125500 - 04/09/03 10:37 AM Re: How long to be effective?
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
raccoon, first and foremost: No offence taken, so no need for an apology [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

The quote you used is definately tongue in cheek. Of course it wasn't aikido that made me soft, it was nature, I was born that way!!

I would agree with gobzhad that "soft" arts necessarily use less punches or kicks, but that is because of the very nature of the art. It isn't in using less strikes that they become soft, but more they are soft because they don't rely upon them. Softness still refers to the non opposition of force. It is very difficult to strike someone without interupting the momentum of their attack. Once the attack is stopped, the aiki principle is lost. It is virtually impossible to perform aiki techniques on a static opponent.

I think even a block that deflects a strike, be it with a twist or whatever, is still a block, it is still the direct opposition of force - you're meeting attack with a counter of your own. I like to think of good aiki as being flowing, like striking into water. There is minimal resistance, and you never seem to come to a stop. Aiki draws the attacker in rather than blocks/deflects him away.

Clearly as a principle this is going to take a loooong time to learn effectively, but as our friend Joe Jutsu (my kind of name, that) points out, there are other aspects of training that don't take so long to learn and utilise. So does this mean that aiki doesn't take so long to be effective after all?

Budo

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#125501 - 04/11/03 09:41 AM Re: How long to be effective?
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
A question for you karateka out there: How long did it take before your karate training was effective ouitside the dojo?

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#125502 - 04/11/03 07:41 PM Re: How long to be effective?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Honestly I don't know.

But I felt fairly confident in about two years. Don't know if this is realistic because I can't remember what I was like.

Hard to say, because I started training at the start of high school.

I am certain my technique was effective and I hit hard enough after four and a half years and got my Sho Dan Ho

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#125503 - 04/12/03 01:16 AM Re: How long to be effective?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Another country heard from, but since I have studied both,I can offer a unbias opinion. I know Cato, I am never un-bias. But here goes as I see it. its a question of curriculum. You can debate till Sadamn appears, whether Aikido is soft or hard and what that means. You will have to look at HOW people apply their Aikido. Chiba sensei here in the states is as hard a practioner as I have ever seen. My Aikido school was as soft as I have seen, so it depends on how you view it. I don't believe that soft or hard means whether you add kicks or take them away,its the way you approach your art.
But the question was about proficiency. When you look at curriculum, Aikido teaches a techniqe from a specific attack and then as you mature you add different attacks to your technique. You don't learn say ikkyo then learn every attack for ikkyo. I understand why things are done the way they are so I am not criticizing it. I spent my first year doing swari-waza, I didn't get off my knees for a year. The reason I know is you don't have to learn ashi sabaki right away, but still its hard to defend yourself from your knees all the time. Honestly though, I don't think you need to be a Brown Belt to learn ikkyo from a Yokomen attack. My entire Brown belt test were techniques that I knew from just a yokomen attack.I think I could have figure it out earlier than 4 years later.
Karate on the other hand is not attack specific. You learn how to block, and you can ususally block anything, so the attack doesn't matter. Kicking and punching are the same thing, you don't have to wait for a Brown Belt to learn a different strike. You need to learn in karate what fits where and what you can make work. Thats why you find guys who are more hand oriented or others more feet oriented or how you put combinations together. Advancing in Karate, you learn more complicated kata and Bunkai, this does not exist in Aikido. So you are looking at apples and oranges in approach to what they do. By its nature, it is easier to use Karate right away because you practice punching every night. Now I don't know about anyone else, but my Aiki classes(both Jutsu and Do) hardly ever did the same things every night, except stretch and roll. One night throws, next night locks, never lock then throw. So it was always piece meal in Aiki. Even in seminars, you never felt the information could be used right away, it needed practice. I was told 10,000 times before you understand it.
Being the rebel I am I changed the curriculum, so that you learn 3 attacks for your first technique test. So for 9th kyu, my students need to learn Ikkyo(ude Osae) from a Chest grab-wrist grab then punch. For their next test, they will learn another technique from the same 3 attacks and then Ikkyo from all attacks. I do this through the kyu ranks. I feel Rokyo and Gokyo can wait till upper Kyus, instead of learning various attacks at that rank. So I don't think it a criticism necessarily, but its a product of how the 2 different arts are taught.

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#125504 - 04/14/03 10:11 AM Re: How long to be effective?
Cato Offline
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
If it is all a question of technique, and aikido taking longer to teach effective techniques, how do low grade karateka cope with their timing, distancing, selecting the right technique, proper application of that technique and so forth. My contention has always been that a mistimed gyaku tsuki is no more effective than a mistimed anything else, so how can karate be effective so quickly? are the techniques that simple?

Budo

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#125505 - 04/14/03 02:09 PM Re: How long to be effective?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Yes, yes yes, it is that simple. Give me a chimp and I bet I could train him to punch, it really isn't that hard to do. Now as to why about timing and such, there are exercises called Ippons, these are one step sparring tools that teach timing distance(mai-ai) and target areas. These are done from the out set. But here is the kicker, its not as difficult to learn and its repetition, repetition. I have thrown 1,000 punches in a given night. You will work basics for 3 plus hours, of nothing but block-punch-kick. In my Karate training vs. my aiki training, here is a typical class. Karate class has gone for 5-6 hours, starting at 4 going till 10. Those hours were nothing but accross the room working your basics. My average karate class is 3 hours and you need to be stretched out before class. 1 hour of basics, 1 hour of kata(in which you practice basics, and timing) 1 hour ippons and sparring. In aikido we strteched for a half an hour-rolled and did throws for a half an hour and technique for an hour at best, sometimes only a half an hour. The Aiki school I attended kept hours and I got 24 hours a month. In karate I got that in a week. And again you work the same basics every time, so it doesn't take long to be able to block kick and punch. It took me months do learn an Iriminage, and many more to get it so I can use it. Its just a different process

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#125506 - 04/14/03 03:54 PM Re: How long to be effective?
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
I can't possibly say it any better than sensei Lou, but perhaps it's more convincing to see it with your own eyes, Cato...
http://www.templeofblood.com/downloads/pictures_and_videos/karate_chimp.zip

I know, the chimp was showing kicks, not punches. But the argument stays same - karate really is THAT simple!

-raccoon

p.s. Okay, that was supposed to be a joke...

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-14-2003).]

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#125507 - 04/15/03 05:44 PM Re: How long to be effective?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
You all already know I'm argumentative so don't get upset with me but...

If karate is simple to learn, and beginners can learn correct timing, distancing etc. in a matter of months doesn't that then suggest that the art is lacking something? Surely there is more to it than simply standing and punching and kicking? Most people have a basic knowledge of punching just from their everyday experience, does karate not offer much above this?

I would think that any art that can be picked up so easily is limited. There is already a strong body of opinion that states that karate blocks simply don't work, can this be extended to suggest karate punches, kicks and strategies offer little above what people can learn themselves, without any training?

Okay, do your worst - I'll take you all on [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#125508 - 04/15/03 08:56 PM Re: How long to be effective?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Cato - you are right and wrong, IMO.

Yes there is a lot more to karate than kick block punch, and the Japanese down block shouldn't be used in the manner prescribed by the JKA...such knowledge of a down block is as advanced as a beginner's punching.

Basic techniques, locks and manouvering take a maximum of two years to learn, then are refined, then more advanced stuff is learnt before reaching black belt (beginner) status. After this, nuances of tai sabaki, bunkai and kyushop are learnt. There are many tegumi drills for speed and lead into bunkai from katas/finishing holds/strikes.

But much of what karate really is isn't taught any more. The tegumi, grappling contact sparring and real tuite and effective self defense is unknown to many.

Take for example the basic front kick. Rarely do I do a straight up, normal one these days. All are directed at weaker points with varying angles of attack and distancing. Variations like this are learnt in full contact kumite (like Kogas says, it doesn't have to be 100% all of the time) and from classical bunkai.

As for the blocks, it is any movement to which the same motion is executed.

Quicker to train up a reasonable practioner, just as long to master.

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#125509 - 04/16/03 02:01 AM Re: How long to be effective?
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I agree with Joe too. The question was easier to learn, and yes it is, but its not limited as one would think. As my Sensei once said you are only limited by your own ideas. Basics are what we were talking about, and basics are easier to learn at first and used at first.
Then you get into the meat of the matter. A block is a lock is a blow is a throw.Yet you can not teach that to a beginner. As Joe said, downward blocks( and Gedan Barai means downward movement, it says nothing about blocking)are not meant to use as a block say for a kick as it leaves your face open. However try doing Nikkyo from a chest grab and do it like a downward block. Outward block can be kotegaeshi or sayundo. Once again you can't teach this to a beginner.In studying kata, first you learn a simple one, you learn the pattern, pick up speed, and then add power. you can't teach a kata to a beginner and have them create power in the kata, so this is a process for learning kata. Then the sweet science of Bunkai or application of kata comes, and you learn Torite(tegumi)tuite(pressure pointing) and nage waza(throwing) Once again not something a beginner understands. For that matter I have a couple of kata that to this day make no sense to me. there is much to learn in Karate, but you need solid basics before getting into the meat of the art.

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