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#125472 - 03/14/03 12:00 AM Re: Funny
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Jamoni.........I agree, but don't forget the palm pilots, cell phones, beepers, and any other electronic toy they bring to class. Will you be here Friday, let me check the palm pilot, while I make a call on my new walky talky that saves all my techniques by chronological order and definition of Japaneese terms that makes me a better businessman-Christ-Save us all!

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#125473 - 03/14/03 02:30 AM Re: Funny
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Aaah, once again I seem to have jumped in with both feet and slipped over [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Sorry, I get so conditioned toward people knocking aikido that I'm a bit too sensitive about it now. I'm seeking therapy.

Slightly off track now, but I'm curious to know how you find training in aikido and karate alongside each other? Do you find a little karate "leaks" into your aiki (and vice versa) when under pressure in randori or kumite?

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#125474 - 03/14/03 03:43 AM Re: Funny
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Cato says:

Sorry, I get so conditioned toward people knocking aikido that I'm a bit too sensitive about it now. I'm seeking therapy.
[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Did you find the therapy effective? If so enroll me too! BTW, That's exactly what I meant when I said I find aikidoist more defensive than people in any other art, but then you are right about people knocking on aikido, too. So all in all, I think it's fair.

as with cross training between aikido and karate ... being a beginner in both arts, I would say it's confusing as hell. The fire of dojo politics also might never cease to burn you.

I never get any chance to use any of the aikido katas/ locks in karate, but being a light weight fighter, the step-tenkan off the line at the last moment concept really helps. If anything, I am learning to move my body so that I just miss my opponent; instead of crashing right into him.

I am also a lot more aware of my posture than my fellow karate dojosei. I try to start my movement from my hara, unlike a lot of color ranks and even some black belts in my dojo, who tend to keep all their energy in their chest. They move like bulls.

As with karate coming into aikido...

My atemi isn't as gentle as it used to be [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG] As a result I am learning to take falls and ukemi that are a lot harder than peers at my level generally have to. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Alright, that was a half joke, but the biggest thing that changed after I started to train full contact karate is the appreciation of the martial aspects. I have much less problem hitting a fellow dojosei in training for real. I also resist a lot more IN ORDER TO HELP MY NAGE LEARN. I get into trouble with sensei a lot more. But I don't see them as bad experiences. I see them as necessary evil if I were to engage myself in budo aikido.

Speaking of trouble with sensei... I also started sparring in aikido with some senior students. We were on our own, behind our sensei's back. Some of us got some broken bones and a few stiches on the head... but it's still great fun. I think we all feel a lot more confident about aikido after some sparring. Sensei Lou is right about karate sparring not any more street effective than aikido type cooperative training. In a self defense situation I could only hope I won't be exchanging kicks and punches for more than 30 seconds like I do in karate. That said, sparring - and desire to win (ego) while sparring - give us much better sense of what works and what doesn't. (Or what I can do and what I can't). I was "dismayed" by an "aggressive aikido sempai" who is a lot bigger, and after taking too many punches and still can't catch my wrist... decides to just grab my guard and kote gaeshi/ irimi nage me silly! And to my dismay they even worked...


In training I tend to use a lot more brute force - muscle - instead of my center and the unbendable arm etc. I suppose that's bad influence, it's hard to switch between the two modes.

The spirit is also hard to switch - the cooperative, protect-the-uke spirit in aikido and the fight-like-there-is-no-tomorrow spirit in karate simply don't mix. Many senior had told me to "relax, you are not in karate".

My stance is a lot lower than my peers in aikido, my guard is usually up, when I take a fall I make sure I re-engage (by eye contact etc) my nage asap etc. as if I am worried they will kick my head or something. In short, I am a lot more aware.

I also catch my sensei's atemi a lot more [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

I also don't get mad when I get hurt - unlike most aikidoist from my area, who would jump up and scream at you silly if your uke crashed into them.

I also slipped into the cat stance/ crane stance quite often. My sensei had given me clear warning about doing that in front of Kawahara shihan...

To summarize, the major factor that leak into aikido after I trained karate isn't so much the individual techniques, but the spirit.

Interesting to see what others say, good thread!

-raccoon

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#125475 - 03/14/03 07:39 AM Re: Funny
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
In my area there are three Aikido schools that cannot be dismissed outright (I've lost count of the dismissable ones). The first is under Stephen Segal. Old school, pre-satori Segal. These guys are the Cobra Kai of aikido. Great technique, hard as nails, and insufferable a-holes, every one.
The second is a little hole in the wall. This school is not martial at all, but everyone is respectful, they have a great outlook, and are basically using aikido to become better people.
The third is in the nice part of town. Their technique is shit, they do aikido because it's trendy, and to hear them talk, their "ki" is totally fricking awesome. I hope so, because their humility and martial ability is seriously in question. It bugs me to see somebody getting NONE of the benefits of training.

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#125476 - 03/14/03 02:59 PM Re: Funny
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I have trained at the Stephen Segal school and with him at a Seminar-early one, before he got heavy, and he was 'catlike' and his technique was impeccable-Trained with his Japaneese wife, also(Fujitana Sensei) whose technique is very percise but not very physical. Make no mistake, Segal Sensei's Aiki works. I saw him Iriminage a uke with a knife and knock him cold, big touch good Aikidoka. All my respects to him. Speaking of him, he does some karate as well(his wife said he studied Shotokan while in Japan but he denies it). Its incorporated in what he does. In my training I apply Aiki-concept to my Karate, which seems like a dichotomy, but really isn't. Philosophically, its mind body and spirit, which is not limited to Aiki. In Aiki, the first thing you do is Kuzushi, the same can be applied in Karate. When someone attacks, your strikes can be done to off balance him, instead of destroying him. I was taught an advanced technique quite by accident, that in Aiki, folding a person, is a type of Kuzushi. Unbalancing can be in many directions. when you fold someone, to the front, to the back, or to the sides, this is unbalancing. So when you strike, you strike to fold their body so its in the useful position for your technique.Why not do this in Karate as well. I don't claim to do Aikido/Jujutsu any longer-its an ijustice to the art, but I definitely use the Principles in everything I do. My karate is part of my Aiki and my Aiki is part of my Karate, my body has incorporated the movements as 1.
P.S. I don't do hard karate type blocks but soft circular paries if you are wondering about the contradiction of energy flow and blocking.

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#125477 - 03/15/03 12:30 AM Re: Funny
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Oh, I know Segal's technique is good, and so are his students. Our school was under Renosa Sensei, and he did not play games. It just seemed like the attitude was thick enough to cut.
Lou, like you, I can't say I practice Aikido. I only took it because it was the best option in the area at the time. I do incorporate what I learned there, as well. It's mainly just that my balance is better, my movement more fluid and precise. And I have other options than stand there and slug it out.

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#125478 - 04/11/03 09:39 AM Re: Funny
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
It seems there are a lot of people who take aikido to compliment their favoured style. What is it about aiki aerts that make them so good for cross training?

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