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#125327 - 04/11/03 05:09 PM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Yes, open mindedness is all good, and if you really think you are wrong, yes, I think you should admit it and correct it. BUT, are you serious about what you said, or are you just waiting for someone to give you a go?

My English sucks. I can't tell if you are serious or kidding even if it would safe my life. So why don't you give me a hand in here?

Do you really think Aikido doesn't work?

-raccoon

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#125328 - 04/12/03 05:29 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Aikido as practised in most dojo has as much to do with self defence as knitting does. Big sweeping tenkan movements and huge circular kaiten movements are not realistic for self defence. The same it true of many techniques from karate, TKD, and Judo. They have no place in self defence. I have yet to see anyone make them work outside the dojo.

No doubt O'sensei could make this nice, flowery aikido work very well, but he was an exceptional martial artist. Most of us aren't. An average martial artist will get a nasty shock when they try to apply their neat techniques on the street, be it aikido, karate or anything else.

Aikido and karate are nice to practice for aesthetic reasons, but for self defence you need aiki jutsu or ju jutsu [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#125329 - 04/12/03 11:49 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
How about Krav Maga and SCARS etc? There is even ISC in my town. Is THAT 'Martial arts"

Well, very effective streetwise, but somehow it doesn't fit my bill of "martial arts"

-raccoon

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#125330 - 04/13/03 04:51 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
From my limited knowledge, krav maga is certainly a martial art, and is certainly effective. I have no idea what scars is.

As ever this long standing debate concerning martial arts and combat sports has yet to be resolved. I think the debate also needs widening to include modern styles of traditional arts. It is precisely because traditional styles have moved away from their martial origins that people feel the need to train in more "real" styles. Aikido is high amongst the culprits for this. So, is aikido, or even martial arts in general, effective for self defence? Probably not.

Budo

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#125331 - 04/13/03 08:37 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Cato, I can emphasize with your frustration. My personal approach goes like this: Train very hard in some simple street proven moves and tactics. For this I use boxing, wrestling, and some of the more intelligent martial arts moves. But I also train techniques that might be difficult or impossible to set up, but which there is a possibility of "falling into", if you catch my meaning. Ikkyo is a perfect example. I'm not going to TRY ikkyo on someone, but IF I find myself in a position where it is safe and appropriate, and my body feels right with it, then I'll hit it. Also, I think Aikido is a great "less than lethal" option. Maybe it's not so great against biker gangs, but against my overly agressive very drunk uncle, it works just fine!

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#125332 - 04/14/03 04:28 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
I think that this sod is right. Modern aikido has little or no chance of being effective for self defence. It is far too complicated, far to reliant upon the over commiting of the attack and far too concerned with being gentle to your opponent. Compare it with other arts such as karate and its deficiencies are glaringly obvious.

Budo
[/QUOTE]


I disagree... to some extend.

I guess it depends on how you use it.

Would a karateka expects himself to perform pinan shodan from start to finish when he is fighting 4 attackers? No, itís a kata, a sequence of movements for practice and study. Do you expect yourself to perform kaiten-nage ura exactly the way you are taught on the mats when you are on the street? No, itís just a kata, itís a learning tool. What are fundamentals of aikido are the step - tenkan, the slide and pivot, the deep root, the ďkiĒ in hara, the flowing motion. Itís the ukemi you take; itís the way you catch the elbow and control.


Like Sensei Lou pointed out in other threads, aikido techniques are very symbolic. Through katas, karate masters pass on the old knowledge. OíSensei did the same. Kote gaeshi is a kata. Shiho nage is a kata. Iriminage is a kata. There are ethics in those katas. Donít be there; step off the line. Blend in, harmonize. Face the same way, see from the same angle. Guide gently, donít force or destroy. These are no more than katas that carry his pacifist message. Katas arenít techniques, and shihonage isnít aikido basic. So perhaps we can stop whining about how aikido doesnít work in the real world. It's how you use it. If a karateka tries to perform his whole kata in self defense, he isn't going to be any more successful than an aikidoka.

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#125333 - 04/14/03 09:30 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
If all aikido is a kata, where are the techniques? Or are you of the school whereby aikido doesn't have techniques, just principles? In which case, why bother to learn the kata at all?

Budo

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#125334 - 04/14/03 09:40 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
If all aikido is a kata, where are the techniques? Or are you of the school whereby aikido doesn't have techniques, just principles? In which case, why bother to learn the kata at all?

Budo
[/QUOTE]

Sorry I wasn't more clear. If, punches, kicks, jabs, blocks etc are techniques in karate; then step - tenkan, slide and pivot, block/catch at elbow; extend ki from center, hand movements to manipulate the hand on your wrist... I think it's fair to call those the basic techniques in aikido. To summerize... it's how you move your body. I don't think it's that conceptual, and I think chaining them up in katas are good way to learn how can they be used. But at the end of the day, you still have to choose the right technique to use in the right time/ position - which goes back to my point about not being too rigid to perform the whole kata.

-raccoon

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#125335 - 12/05/04 11:19 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
If you can, find an aikido club with rougher people there, the people you train with affect your aikido, as it is them who attack you.

Myself and another guy in the class have been training together in the week, we are both hoping aikido can help us in self defense. We agreed that we would 'fight' each other, 1 attacking anyway wew want, and would in a fight, and the other using techniques to defend, to make our progress more parctical.

I tell you, the difference atemi makes, wow.

The first day we trained, he was attacking, and I was sorta guessing and thinking of the technique to use before the strike comes, this would only work with alot of luck, I found myself getting caught all the time.

So I tried something else, which my instructor has said from day 1, 'move your body'. As an attack was coming in, I was making sure I was moving to a safe area, away from the attack, only when I had done this, did I realise that situation you put yourself in, opens up a defense, say you move to the live side of a punch, when avoiding it, trying to keep contact, ripping on a shionage. Next time you train in aikido, forget about the technique, just move out of the way, you'll find then, that there are plenty of techniques you can use for the position you are in.

As you said about the teacher, my instructor wasnt in on Friday, and the 3rd instructor was there, I almost walked out because he was so soft, just what some people are like

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#125336 - 12/05/04 05:45 PM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
An average martial artist will get a nasty shock when they try to apply their neat techniques on the street, be it aikido, karate or anything else.
Budo
[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that someone who has spent the last 10 years studying aikido or karate would only be classed as having average ability when it came to defending themselves in a violent confrontation?

LOL...nice one mate.
When was the last time you saw a shodan in either having problems with your AVERAGE bully let alone someone who has a higher grade.

"Dont tar everyone with the same brush" we are all idividuals with different qualities.Its not the MA that wins the fight but rather the person involved.

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