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#123113 - 04/23/05 04:27 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

Getting back to the real topic.

Neo, I agree with earlier posts that you should decide based on what your goals are. If you're looking to get into better shape, check out different places to see who practices hard and which ma's genearally have people in good shape etc.

If it's fighting ability you're looking for, there is no 1 ultimate ma and no ma is really responsible for "creating" good fighters. Good and legendary fighters have existed in all different ma's (bruce lee, mas oyama or choi young-ee as his real name etc. etc.). Also, no good fighter has studied or confined themself to 1 ma. They study different arts and take what works for them in real combat situations. Lastly, the best fighters are made from nature & nurture. It really depends on the person's abilities and their devotion to FIGHTING. Don't listen to people trying to say 1 is better than the other becuz of stoopid technical details (lower v higher stance, grapple v distance bla bla f'ing blah). Like i said you're born with it or you're not, you train hard or you don't, and you use what's best for you.

[This message has been edited by atbro (edited 04-23-2005).]

#123114 - 04/23/05 05:50 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

First let me say that the WTF DOES LIE. I don't know if any of you have heard of Steven E. Travis but he is the President of the North American TKD Association and our Professor (8th Dan) trained by a great man I wish I could have met but of all things cancer got to him and his name what Ray Sell one of the three founders of the Elkart Karate Studio but anyway when he was in the WTF he told us thast he used to win ALL the time and finally they got tired of being emberassed by an american they started to not call is points when he CLEARLY scored. (I've seen the tapes) Now when I say this I'm not exagerating they would not call at least 4 or 5 points a match! Well finally he got tired of it as did the rest of us (This is back in like the 70's so I mean our association when I say us) and hit the other fighter in the face and KO him cold. Now I know thats NOT sportsman like but afterwards we switched from the korean ran USTU to the american ran AAU.

#123115 - 04/23/05 06:24 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate


Dude. Chill for a minute...and I am sorry, but you really have to look at independent sources for your historical information. Take a look at this site for some more accurate information about the origins of TKD Kwans. This, by the way, was compiled by a Korean.

#123116 - 04/23/05 08:55 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

Again, I want to emphasize my point: stop posting ur under-researched, copy&pasted links and assumptions as facts when it's not, especially if it has a potential to be insulting. You are skewing the opinions and perspectives of other people.

Is it really possible your research online or wherever is better than numerous other scholars who are still in debate over the origins of TKD? You think a few papers or internet links are going to settle a debate that is probably older than you? Seriously you guys (including me) should not be posting these types of assumptions on the internet.

#123117 - 04/23/05 09:04 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate


Where's the insult. This was research done by Koreans who recognized what they were doing. This in no way takes away from the usability or efficacy of what TKD is. It just recognizes what their research showed. Now I am the first to agree that the internet is not always accurate, but what do you think about Koreans who teach TKD telling exactly the truth about their research.

I for one will probably think that these guys are more interested in honest technique than trying to bolster fiction!


#123118 - 04/24/05 04:45 AM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

Atbro is spot on!
The effectiveness, usefulness of an art is dependent on context. If you want exercise and general fitness then you should probably avoid some of the more truly martial of the martial arts as many are actually detrimental to health in that they often defy the precepts of sports science.
If you want street effectiveness then you need to make other decisions.
If you are inclined to highly athletic/ gymnastic techniques then choose accordingly.
And then it is useful to choose styles, if you have more than one under your belt, according to the context in sparring.
I found for example, that I had no capacity using TKD or Hapkido to deal with a Choy Lee Fut stylist that I used to spar with a lot. But Kyokushinkai was perfect for the task.
The simple and direct techniques used to infuriate him. (His circular and multi angles techniques otherwise left me for dead!)

#123119 - 04/24/05 10:39 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

I've had the honor of studying TKD and Judo in the past and I am currently studying Aikido right now. With respect to the whether one form is greater or worse, all i can say is that they are DIFFERENT.

It is true that TKDis derived from Karate. Unfortunately, alot of Koreans refuse accept this due to a cultural hatred toward the japanese dating back to japanese imperialism over korea. However, the essence of TKD was derived from Karate. But then again, Karate was also derived from China, and the knowledge of atemi that Chinese brought to Japan was derived from India and etc etc. The lineage goes on and on.

The modern day TKD definitely focuses alot on the sparring techniques and less on the katas. This is unfortunate because the katas allows one to focus on one's ki as well as practice the important nuances of physical movement. However, this doesnt necessarly mean that TKD is ineffective. Because TKD focuses significantly on being able to deliver fast, consecutive, and precise kicks towards an opponent, particularly to the head, it can be lethal for any opponent. No matter how much an individual trains his/her body, a good blow to the head can easily be incapicatating or lethal. The advantage of TKD lies in the fact that a person's leg has a signifantly larger reach than the arm and allows the individual's body to stay protected. In addition, the speed with which these kicks can be performed can be rather surprisingly fast. However, TKD becomes less effective once an opponent comes within arms range. Therefore, TKD's main focus is essentially, mobility, speed, precision, and range.

Karate, regardless of the ryu, is focused significantly more on the hardening and strengthening of the body. Karateka subjects him/herself to tremendous amount of abuse in order to achieve this difficult goal. It also focuses on speed but such speed is tied to the power of the attack. It definitely has maintained it's focus on the katas, which allows a practitioner to focus on the inner energy. Karate's advantage lies in it's ability to sustain damage, and more, deliver devastating damange to the opponent, particularly towards the knee, ribs, and the head. However, a karateka rarely uses his/her leg to attack an opponent's head since that essentially uproots one's center point. He/she instead prefers to penetrate into the opponent's range of attack, and deliver a closer blow.

Note also that while a Karateka can be relatively heavy, TKD practioners are always quick and agile. This is not to say Karate is slow, but rather, it focuses on maintaining one's center of gravity, a theme you will see in almost ALL of Japanese martial arts, such as Jujitsu and Aikijutsu.

So the difference essentially boils down to speed/agility versus endurance/strength. Which is better suited to an individual? That depends on the person's physique and mentality. Although I am korean and enjoy TKD (yes, national pride), I stand at 6ft and weight 210lbs. I have no illusion of being abile to fly around like those 19year old TKD practioner. For me, Judo or Aikido will allow me to utilize my physical assets more efficiently and effectively.

Likewise, ALL martial arts, regardless of origin, founder, or philosophy will have builtin weaknesses not because the art is weak, but because the act of using a particular concept always has an innate opening. EVERY MOVE HAS A COUNTER MOVE. The ability to perceive an opponent's move, an intuition rather, is what seperates a mediocre fighter from a great fighter.

Along the same line of thought, the Samurai class of feudal Japan practiced many different styles of martial arts because they recognized that certain techniques and methods are unviable in different enviroment (does it make sense to try to draw a katana in a narrow/low corridor?). Karate was developed by the denizens of Okinawa because they did not have the weapons that the Samurai had. (and we haven't even mentioned Ninpo here).

Now, to address the fact that world's best fighers are NOT karateka or TKD or KungFu or etc. This is because no matter how great a martial artist, SIZE DOES MATTER. TKD, Karate and KungFu were designed with speed, focused strengh and/or mobility in mind. It was designed to give an individual an advantage over a larger person. But the truth of the matter is, a larger person WILL have a distinct advantage over a smaller person, regardless of the martial art. And a larger person, like myself, will utilize what is well suited for our body - jujitsu, wrestling etc. It is not that the technique is better. A tiny person practicing jujitsu will not have an advantage over a large karateka.

So the lesson is, stop ranting about how one particular martial art is worse than another. Because some day, you might get your lights knocked out by someone who practices that particular art. The ability to respect all forms of budo is an essential part of learning humility - the first step to becoming a true martial artist.

sorry for the long rant

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