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#123023 - 01/01/05 10:36 AM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


I gotta agree with AgenT on the multiple opponant fight scenario. In reality, most fights involving more than one attacker are unwinnable. No MA is going to totaly prepare you for this kind of thing. Find what works for you personaly, and stick with it. When it comes to MA's, regardless of which one you choose, you get out of it what you put into it. Best wishes on your futue training! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] Peace! Matt

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#123024 - 01/01/05 02:44 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
actually i agree that tkd and karate are WAYYY more simelar than they are different. (infact gen. choi hong hi admitted that it is based on shotokan karate, he studied with gichin funakoshi) the big difference lies in the teaching of each respective art.
karate has always been and always will be about kata and bunkai (interpretation of movements)..which im sorry to say many tkd schools fail to teach, and yes i agree much of it is watered down or sport oriented.
in the end...kata is kata..whether you call it poomse, kata, hyung, forms, patterns...they are all the same. there is NOTHING that is in karate that is not also in taekwondo...if you know how to look for it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
if you study tkd and are interested in more practical applications, and wonder WHY you REALLY do those forms (much more than to get your next belt and look pretty doing it)...seek out some instruction from a karate teacher, im sure he will give you some private lessons on how to dissect your forms and interperate the movements for yourself.
kind of odd coming from me since i no longer practice forms (i dont think they are neccessary)..but i do still find them intriguing to say the least, especially if you can think outside the box so to speak, there is no such thing as a block, even though that is what it is called, that does not mean that is the only way you can USE that "movement" (not block), there are various reasons, theories as to WHY they are called blocks, which is an unwinnable argument at best, so lets not go there. suffice to say that "a block is a strike" ..literally! if you think this way then you are free to "block" in any way you see fit or are comfortable with, like perries or simple palm blocks. and you realize that your "high block" can be a devastating forearms strike smashed into your attackers jaw or throat.

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#123025 - 01/01/05 09:53 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Karate DO uses kata extensively to explain the movements, which most of the self-defense and combat methods were taken out when Itosu began teaching in the school systems, heavily watering down real karate. Honestly Karate when it was a defensive art was practiced in secret so techniques would not be stolen, and also if it was public the stylist would be excuted in most cases. People today can only speculate what the movements in kata were for. Karate do isnt and never was designed for combat it was a spiritual path used to build charater it does contain the same basics as the jutsu side but isnt near as effective, when it was said one breath one strike one life in karate jutsu that was a probability as one clean strike could kill. Karate jutsu as it was taught did use kata and it was always one tradition one kata and those kata changed constantly from person to person each one was a warm up and had principles of combat behind them and each had one clear purpose to kill or incapacitate, Karate in okinawa was known for many years as the art of homicide. Karate do does contain many tkd methods. Karate jutsu on the other hand contains very few kicking methods and striking methods which were mostly open hand. all aimed at vital targets and all simple to do, tkd if it still contains throwing and grappling is now rarely taught I havent found anyplace that teaches these aspects realistly under full resistance. In original karate there were no air techniques and it resembled chinese kempo and muaythai more then other arts and is mostly shortrange strikes, alot and I mean alot of grappling and takedowns designed to throw a opponent right down at your feet similier to judo it did have one major difference in reality there was no way to breakfall against karate throws most would drop you right on your neck for a quick kill, and dimmak methods to maximize the strikes. Kempo I do agree with you on the blocking aspect there are no blocks in karate every movement is a defense offence and counterattack. Shotokan is a good method but there is little the same in karate jutsu methods and shotokan. Karate jutsu is more a combination of shotokan,goju,issyhin and shorin ryu. These are more sub groups of the original art. Despite what most people think Kata was practiced very little in actual karate jutsu most time was used to toughen the hands and feet and doing basic kihon. Put a jutsu stylist who knows the same as a do stylist and the jutsu stylist will win everytime. Thats because modern karate is a game not a combative art. okinawan Ti was very dangerous and lethal system designed only for combat.

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#123026 - 01/02/05 10:04 AM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i agree with some of what you said here, about itosu watering down karate intentionally (and for good reason as well) but...the moves are still in karate do, as well as karate jutsu and taekwondo, but as you said, its just not taught, maybe its not even known to them!! a high block is a high block no matter if your art is do or jutsu...what makes it jutsu is that you are concerned with actually using it and not the "do" aspects as much.

"Shotokan is a good method but there is little the same in karate jutsu methods and shotokan. Karate jutsu is more a combination of shotokan,goju,issyhin and shorin ryu. These are more sub groups of the original art"..all of these arts are DO arts, look them up you will see they are goju ryu karate do, isshinryu karate do, shotokan karate do, and shorin ryu karate do. i have talked to karate jutsu sensei and the kata they teach are the same ones everyone else teaches(slightly different through each person as you said but naihanchi is naihanchi, which is called tekki in shotokan)..they just use them differently. so basically goju ryu karate do, could very well be goju ryu karate jutsu, depending on how it is used and taught. thus...many of the same techniques are contained in tkd, and as for aerial techniques,even in tkd from what i have seen not many (if any) aerial techniques are used in the actual forms/hyungs

as for the "ikken hisatsu" or one strike one kill thing...i dont think its meant literally, for example in kyudo and kyujutsu, you only have on arrow...so you better make it count, so you train as if you have only one strike to kill your opponent, even though you have many more. it could also be represented by saying that that "one strike" is the one that counts most because it sets up your opponent for follow up techniques...so in a way that one strike leads to the kill. they can also be referring to kyusho jutsu (dim mak/pressure poins) where if done correctly, arguably one strike is all you need.

remember that the "do" arts ARE the jutsu arts, only taught differently. juDO came from juJUTSU, aikiDO and aikiJUTSU, kenDO and kenJUTSU...etc

"Despite what most people think Kata was practiced very little in actual karate jutsu most time was used to toughen the hands and feet and doing basic kihon." i disagree, it is well known that MUCH time was spent on kata, sometimes learning and practicing only one kata for 5 years or more, before learning another kata. every practitioner ive met from do or jutsu all agree on one thing, kata IS karate. the other things like body conditioning is supplimental to the kata, which is the heart of karate. it is said that choki motobu practiced naihanchi over 100 times a day!

also you should not confuse okinawa te (ti) with tote which later became known as karate (both meaning chinese hand) the first character (kara or china) was later changed again to a different kara..meaning empty. te was indigenous to okinawa, with chinese traveling to okinawa and vice versa their respective arts mixed and mingled, and thus the chuan fa (kempo or fist method) from china was blended with okinawan te to form tode or tote (china hand)..and thus karate

lastly karate jutsu does not describe a specific style...any style CAN BE jutsu, depending on how its taught.

check this out www.shotokankaratejutsu.com

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#123027 - 01/02/05 08:02 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with alot of what you say. I definatly agree kata is the essence of karate, but how many people actually realistically take the time to make the movements in kata effective how many people today can actually give realistic bunkai to every movement in kata or make them effective. Karate is a combination of shorin kempo and okinawan ti methods thats were kanku dai and similier kata come from and the animal methods such as the snake spear and tiger claw. Who really knows though the simple fact is we were not there when okinawans used those methods and kata so how do we know what it was really like. history is often clouded by legend and commercial aspects a colorful history helps sell the product. I agree shotokan and other do arts can be used as jutsu methods. Judo is a big example of that. How much time is actually spent making kata movements effective though especially since in all honestly we have no way of knowing the intent of the founders of kata that knowledge was secret and died with them. Karate jutsu contains very few actual offenses and defenses. Unlike tkd karate still has a realistic approach if taught based on kata because even if the movements change the principles remain the same even in the basic kata every move has a elbow and grab. Even though the moves in the do art are the same as jutsu the meanings are much different Karate jutsu was developed in a time were it was kill or be killed Karate do wasnt and sadly to most it has become a game and childrens art with few people knowing its true purpose. The do aspects such as shotokan and goju taught specific aspects of karate jutsu and later became their own traditions the kata remained the same but the knowledge was mostly lost. Really at the core I believe the individual makes kata what it is and you should seek the applications not follow someone else movements as the might not work for you. That is their view and should remain theirs.

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#123028 - 01/03/05 05:30 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
how many people actually realistically take the time to make the movements in kata effective how many people today can actually give realistic bunkai to every movement in kata or make them effective....enough, more and more each day, every karate (do AND jutsu) all bunkai their kata as ive seen...some more than others. all of this is strange coming from a guy who doesnt practice forms (me)...i used to, but to be honest i view them as fun, but unneccessary, just show the principles involved, and a fixed routine is not needed. (notice i did not say they are useless)

Karate jutsu contains very few actual offenses and defenses. Unlike tkd karate still has a realistic approach if taught based on kata because even if the movements change the principles remain the same even in the basic kata every move has a elbow and grab.
again i disagree, karate jutsu contains and unending array of offenses and defenses!!! that it the entire point they try to convey...its interpretation of the movements, not this move means this, and that move means that...each move can mean many things! there is a book on the down block alone with 75 variations of how to use it! its called 75 down blocks, by rick clark.(that is ONE technique, now..do that to every technique in ONE kata...and imagine the amount of stuff you can learn...now do that to every kata you know...)
about karate having a more realistic approach...approach is the key word here, they approach it differently, maybe you are thinking of kata too literally ...the only reason a karate down block is different from a tkd down block is because of bunkai(or approach if you will). the movement is practically exactly the same thing, why then do you say these moves are not in tkd...they are there! just not taught.
even if the movements change the principles remain the same even in the basic kata every move has a elbow and grab....AGREED!..even in a different style..tkd for instance [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] however about the grab and elbow thing...it goes way deeper than that, that could be a literal translation of the techniques, that chamber (your elbow and grab) could be a grab as you said, the motion of it could be pulling your opponent into you, or it could be more literally seen as a rear elbow, maybe its a headlock... but do not ignore the OTHER arm in this technique, one pulls back for the chamber, but what is the other doing? a down block for example, could be a low strike, could be a hair grab and yank down to off balance your opponent..or many other things, maybe you pulled his wrist with your left hand, grabbed his hair with your right, all of a sudden your block has turned into a grappling technique/takedown.

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#123029 - 01/04/05 10:31 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


I practice kata still but more as a warm up and meditation then anything. I see more and more karate do schools finaly studing bunkai thats good they are becoming more JUTSU everyday. What disturbs me though is 95% of what they come up with they cant apply even in sparring. You'd be surprised the number of karate do students that dont know the applications or even the translations to the kata they study yet move up through the ranks if a shodan knew the applications to just 3 kata I'd be sure they would be lethal. While there may be 75 minute variations to techniques, Karate jutsu will usually only teach 5-8 because like I said karate jutsu is geared only for combat, and in combat the more choices you have to pick from the slower you will be. Its common to see a karate do student say they know 30 kata or 300 techniques, to me this is a sad excuse for a student as it took decades to master 1 kata and yet they know 20 or 30. I disagree when you say karate jutsu has a unending array of methods thats karate do. Karate jutsu makes use off just the basics and usually only two kata so all together in the jutsu students arsenal they may have only 20-30 techniques and 10 of those are basic methods heavily refined, I've used karate alot in hth the kata I learned were kusanku and seisan I am confident I dont need anymore because these are more then enough for effective self-defense. I've found most students even very serious ones look for hidden flashy techniques in kata there are no such thing as original kata wasnt for sport. You'd be suprised how many people dont see a elbow strike everytime they chamber or a pull when they chamber or a application to spin the attacker off balence and throw them when they turn. When you look at it that way 1 kata has a multitude of effective methods and 2 have plenty. These arent flashy but they are effective. Once again thats just my interpertation of basic kata such as fuku gata ichi and Gekisai dai ichi. I would be interested in hearing some of your interpatations for seisan and kusanku if you've done these kata. There is a wealth of practical knowlede in kata sadly most rbsd people ignore their worth. I'm an example that kata alone can make you a fighter as I rarely sparr or do workouts but I do alot of kata it keeps me very fit. That combined with knowledge based on fights I've been in makes me effective alot of the time because I know what to look for in kata.

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#123030 - 01/05/05 05:44 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
I disagree when you say karate jutsu has a unending array of methods thats karate do. Karate jutsu makes use off just the basics and usually only two kata so all together in the jutsu students arsenal they may have only 20-30 techniques and 10 of those are basic methods heavily refined

There is a wealth of practical knowlede in kata
exactly what you disagreed with. whether or not you choose to use it is up to you however.

to put is most basically...do or jutsu, its irrelevant what you call it, kata is kata, its how its TAUGHT that is the difference
each basic has a plethora of ways it can be used even if you dont see them.
i dont think you are getting my point, if your teacher doesnt teach many many variations of each technique that is one thing, but that does not mean they are not present. if you can use a chamber as an elbow so can anyone else who does forms, the only difference is if it is taught or not, either way it is still in the form

I've found most students even very serious ones look for hidden flashy techniques in kata there are no such thing as original kata wasnt for sport....if they found them there, then they ARE there...or they couldnt have found them there.

When you look at it that way 1 kata has a multitude of effective methods and 2 have plenty. These arent flashy but they are effective. ....again you said it yourself, 1 kata has a multitude of effective methods, and 2 has even more. that is why i said karate jutsu (actually any martial art that contains forms at all)has an unending array of techniques, because the interpretations of how each one can be used is unending.

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#123031 - 01/06/05 01:02 AM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


I get your point, but it dont matter if 300 moves are present in kata. 295 of those techniques are ethier minute variations like the low block, or they just dont work in a violent situation. You take one kata I doubt your going to get many techniques that work in a real violent situation as kata is mainly about perfection and unless you know what to look for most movements dont work in a chaotic situation. RBSD people see kata as unrealistic because most of the techniques people come up with simply dont work, and the exercise to most is static. Its more about getting proper principles then moves anyway. While the interpretations are endless, as I said the number of effective techniques as they apply to you is not. Out of 2 45 move kata you may find only 3 techniques that you can actually use in a realistic situation. Those techniques if applied correctly may be all you need. Flashy movements like jump kicks fancy wristlocks and such usually dont work in a realistic situation no matter how many variations you find in kata, that doesnt mean any of them will be effective. For example out of the 75 ways a low block can work only 4 may work for the situation your in. The problem with that is your instincts will be clouded by haveing to choose from the other 71 variations that are not needed, time in combat is precious and if wasted can get you killed, thats why most rbsd people dont do kata. How kata is taught IS the difference between Jutsu and Do, Jutsu= skil Do=way. Take someone who has experiance in violent situations and teach them a kata, and more often then not they can get applications that do work they find much less in kata but what they find gets the job done. If I teach kata at all to students its only to students who have experiance fighting as they wont waste their time fooling with unrealistic applications that dont work. They know what they can and cant do and look for that in kata.


[This message has been edited by AgenT (edited 01-06-2005).]

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#123032 - 01/08/05 02:01 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


it all depends on what you want to do. the only thing i got out of teakwondo was the kicking. to me katas, paterns it wastes time, but then again people enjoy katas and paterns theres no such thing as the best martial art they all have weak points and strong points, every ones and indavidual. what do you want to get out of martial arts? to me the most beneficial is cross traing what i did, was first up was taekwondo then kick boxing then boxing then grappling and now i'm reserching trapping. thats 15 years worth of training with a year or two break in between to see where i'm at and what i'm gonna do. now i pass all my knowlage on to others

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