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#123103 - 04/01/05 08:19 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
xxjinhyungxx Offline

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 41
Oyama himself never claimed he studied Taekyon, he did however mention BY NAME the karate guys he trained with/under. - cxt

wow... u must be completely devoid of his whole lifestyle and his LIFETIME achievements, (yes note LIFETIME, not TIME IN JAPAN). obviously u prob. went to google, typed and then searched matsutatsu oyama life biography. or something close to that and got your information. and i have to admit, those american websites are PRETTY DARN ACCURATE in terms of karate achievements/training/the widespread of kyokushin karate, but please. go to any asian (chinese/korean/japanese) website (you see they have more credibility) and it'll say that he trained in taekyon.

#123104 - 04/01/05 09:15 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

Passion I appreciate. Bigotry I dispise. "dirty japs" are your words & your true feelings. You sound like a Nazi claiming that no Jews were ever exterminated. Re-write history among your close-knit group all you want because INDEPENDANT historians have written in support of the true role of the Hwarang, Japanese influence on early TKD/TSD & the role od sport in TKD. No one disputed that during & prior to WWII, the Japanese were viscious & cruel to the Chinese & Koreans. But Japanese accept China's influence on Karate w/o such heated anger. Wake up...the world isn't flat.

#123105 - 04/01/05 10:51 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
xxjinhyungxx Offline

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 41
you know. ihave to admit, quite a monologue there hedkikr, i did find that the comment posted on 04-04-2005 03:17pm, was rational. but this one that u write after my making fun of that "xtc"'s credibility, u write senselessly. and as a result, i'll try my best to try and answer what you have written in your "My point: It never surprizes me to hear the "2000 year-old MA" myth from TKD folkes."

now. you bring up the first point, korea simply wishes to expell japanese things so that korea becomes #1 and japan becomes #2. and you call that simple envy and jealousy. the truth is boy, that japan never admitted their wrongfulness in taking over korea. if you know anything about asian history, u'll know that the 3rd attmept(in which they finally succeded) was in WW2, where tehy took over large chunk of china and all of korea. now, lets get to the point. after (thanks to the USA) korea was freed from the japanese, the japanese left miserably, suicided, blabla. but they NEVER APOLOGIZED. instead, they wrote books and more senseless stories about their "strong battles". a strong battle they did fight, yes, but the part where they write in thier history books that "korea attacked japan first, and therefore japan, in an act of defense, attacked and colonized all of korea". where do i get this? i get this from asian websites and i've lived/born/gone to korea, i see books like this all the time (recieving criticism of course). so i decide to read it, and wow, can u believe it? it really says that. if you nkow ANYTHING about asian history (see you first have to have some sort of credibility hedkikr before u make conclusions based on some "encyclopedia' information), you will know that it was japan who attacked korea 3 times not reverse. and in fact, japan's 1st attack vs. korea was by a korean emissary. u see since japan was an island country, their ppl (to put it simply) were just dumb fisherman. and as a result, korea and china often sent emissaries there to retrieve information, trade, etc. and in the process a korean emissary started living there, became "emperor", had sons, and staged the 1st attack against korea. of course it failed, but the point im trying to say is even in early history korea was the one to teach japan. (makes sense dont u think? korea's 5000 years old, controled by numerous countries 1000 times, and one of those times was china. so wouldnt u think that it would be taught everyting the chinese were taught before the japanese? i mean china > korea, before china > japan. so i think if u think logically, it would kinda make sense that china taught korea everyting before they taught japan ANYTHING).
now 2nd point: you say "since this false myth/gayness/lies/propoganda lies all in their envy, i mean its been almost 60 years why cant they let it die?". well the answer again is the fact that they write in THEIR JAPANESE HISTORY BOOKS taht KOREA ATTACKED JAPAN FIRST AND THEEREFORE JAPAN WAS "FORCED" TO TAKE OVER KOREA. is that true? of course not. but japan blatantly denies it. look at the movie "The Patriot", it depics USA vs Britain, and it depicts britain as ,basically, barbarians (which they were not. they werent as vicious as seen in the movies). so if u dont know already, britain was angry and demanded an apology, and THEY GOT ONE (b/c they really werent like that in the wars in britain vs usa). now comes movie "Pearl Harbor" about USA vs Japan. japan gets depicted as barbarians, they demand an apology, they DONT GET ONE (b/c the whole world was saying "wtf? are u retarded, thats really how u guys were"). so hrmm they deny that they took over korea for no reason other than vicious colonization, and then they deny that pearl harbor is true.... is something fishy?
Point 3: (o yeah if u havent figured out yet, i get all my sources from asian history books, yes ASIAN NOT JUST KOREAN, and asian websites. i'd say im more credible than the white man who searches google) "They try to be more like the Japanese in the economic/manufacturing world but are still in 2nd place(which will you buy, a Toyota/Honda or Hyundai/Kia, Sony or Samsung)." hrm... u know korea and japan are the worlds leaders in techonology. and are constantly switching from 1st/2nd place. o yeah and u bring up samsung vs sony? samsung makes the worlds #1 semi-conductors and #1 lcd screens and #1 cellphones(arguably). i dunno if sony does that except for games. but then again, basing the success of a PSP/PS2 vs Samsung Phones, is kinda senseless and ridiculous.
Point 4: "But that's not enough...they've got to call this Japanese art "Yudo" to maintain a Korean flavor." wow that is the MOST senseless thing i've heard from you yet. now why would tehy call it "yudo" hrm... well thats cuz thats how YOU PRONOUNCE IT IN KOREA, AND HOW YOU PRONOUNCE IT IN KOREAN ACCENT. thats like saying "america is brainwashing everyone living in america, b/c they pronounce the captial of France as "p-a-r-i-s"(yes w/ the "s" pronounced) instead of "p-a-r-r-y. b/c in french dialogue the s is silent. and wow i could sya that for just about every captial, city, word, in the world. saying that japan is creating propoganda and being a fag cuz they pronounce korean capital as "seoul" instead of "suh-ool" and so they are saying it in a "japanese accent to maintain a japanese flavor, and show everyone that they still control korea". is that retarded or what? lol its the accent that makes korean ppl say "YUDO" not "TO MAINTAIN KOREAN FLAVOR".
point 5: "Japanese freely admit that karate came from Okinawa w/ strong influences from China. I guess there are too many big ego's involved." hrmm. well korea(taekwondo) does admit that 2000 years ago they got their martial art from taekyon. and taekyon admits that it recieved its influences from china. but im guessing u dont know that since taekwondo related to taekyon is absolutely false. so you wouldnt even bother reasearching taekyon (i doubt u even know what it looks like), and so you wouldnt know that taekwondo as well recieves strong influences from china.
point 6: "The China-Japan-Korea" connection. if you know anything about asian history (yes lke i said u need to know what ur talking about instead of reading garbage), you'll know that both contries korea/japan recieve their writing/words/etc. from china. of course korea was the only one to make an alphabet, but nonetheless its like latin (english comes form latin). now korea would say a word like "Chu" and in chinese it would be "chui" but it would have same meaning. and it would be written in korean letters vs chiense caligraphy. same is for japanese. pronounciation will be like "Chu" but its CALIGRAPHY is almost (if not exactly) like chinese caligraphy (im talkingabout comparing the traditional "non-simp" japanese to "non-simpf" chinese.). yet u look at korean words and japanese words, and when you hear them they sound almost exactly the same. why is that? b/c the japanese, like they got their writing from china, got their speaking from korea. there are historians that did discover that this fact (like i said asian websites) but japaan refuses to acknowledge this. perhaps THIS IS REALLY B/C OF EGO?
point 7: i say that i get my sources from asian books and websites (whether u'll belive me or not), but i simply dont go write them down for you. b/c what is a english speaking american gonna do w/ an asian website. u prob dont even have the lang. installed, so all u'll see i s @#)(*$)(lojidfio()*#)$(*#@){}{}{}[. so i mean.. its like "wtf is the point". but u know my question is where do you get YOUR credibility? hedkikr. im korean, and i tell you i get from aisan websites, not from KOREAN websites. that further increases my credibility that i would know about asian history (i demosntrated, i logically linked the chiense-korean-japanese influence together) and also it increases credibility that i would get my facts (about oyama) from japanese/chinese websites as well as korean ones. so my opinion isnt biased on oyama, its based on th einformation that i gather from all nations (korea/japan/china).

o yeah, never do i talk about "dirty-japs" or anything of the such. if i really wnated to oust japan from my vocabulary, i wouldnt say "go check asian websites (and yes if u know anytihng, japan is included in asia !! THINK!!). i would say "i got my sources from korean websites, and koera korea korea kroea kroea. butinstead i dont, i get them from asian websites, korea/china/japan. i stress this point b/c obviously u think ikm some sort of racist.
dont get angry b/c i have crediblity and acutal proof (through history) to "proove my thesis/argument", while u well, u i have google. :/ and again, a whiteman's search server. and i'd think an asian search engine talkinga bout "asian history" is more accurate than a white man's search engline talking about "asian history"

learn some history
gain some credibliity
then talk... the world isnt flat

#123106 - 04/01/05 11:01 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
xxjinhyungxx Offline

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 41
o yeah i forgot to mention. the main reason why the westerners(US primarily, except for ppl like gemeni i thikn BUT THERE ARE VERY FEW OF THEM) thinks that TKD is from karate. is b/c when Master Jhoon Rhee first came to the US, instead of callling it "TaeKwonDo" he started calling it Korean Karate. now why would he do such a thing? "PERHAPS B/C ITS REALLY FROM KARATE" no, no not really. its b/c while korea for 35 years had to change everyting to japan (ex: names, jobs, etc), Japan was already touring the world, teaching the peoples of their "martial art". so japan beats korea by 35 years in "advertising" their martial arts. so now jhooon rhee comes to the US, if he were to put "TaeKwonDo", ppl might just imstake it to be some medical herb or something. i mean if Karate is being advertised for 35 years, and then u get some random thing like "TaeKwonDO" then no **** , noones gonna go to it. thats like saying (in example) "Alzalkareb" instead of "Indian Boxing". i mean if u had Indian Boxing, u'd know "o its western boxing, in indian style. so indians copied and made there own, NEAT!! TIME TO LEARN IT". i mean u get what im saying here?
he did it to gain ppl, to teach his martial art. eventually he got famous, but since being first called "Korean Karate", it left such a big impact. n then ever since "TKD comes from Karate".

#123107 - 04/03/05 04:14 AM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

Damn...You one angry Korean.

As a matter of fact, I have studied Asian (China, Korea, Japan, India) history but it sounds as though you've had a lot more than I have. That's great (no sarcasm). But your level of anger derails you.

If you recall, Korean history wasn't the issue. Is it really that difficult to say karate influenced TKD even a little bit - like maybe the gi (used to look like a karate gi w/ a black lapel & pant stripe but now it's a poll-over). Why not use the original Taekyon pants & top?

Maybe I'll get out of "your house"...I don't want you to have a stroke.

#123108 - 04/04/05 03:17 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

For the most part I agree with you Jinhyung. I too believe that TKD has its roots in Taekyon, but it definately has gotten a big influence by karate. TKD itself is pretty modern, I mean the name itself is not that old, but I don't deny that it might not have been called by another name before. But it shouldnt matter too much now anyways as both are are vastly different now.

To bring up another point... Historically, culture and tradition in east asia has gone from china, through korea, to japan. Why would martial arts be the exception to all of this? It's simple logic, and yet I'm still saddened by some western views on the validity of korean martial arts. Some even going as far as blaming our culture as suffering some sort of inferiority complex towards the japanese. You have to understand the psychology and history behind all of it before you can jump to conclusions.

#123109 - 04/05/05 10:04 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

tae kwon do was made by General Choi, by combining Karate, and a koren footfighting style called Taek kyon(im pretty sure that how its spelled) to karate and TKD are simmiler. TKD has more foot fighting than karate though.

#123110 - 04/05/05 11:17 PM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate
xxjinhyungxx Offline

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 41
If you recall, Korean history wasn't the issue. - hedkikr

acutally korean history was a part of the focus. since you were the who disregarded its history for god knows what reason and decided to say that it was fake. i brought it up to tell you why its hard for koreans to say japanese influenced korea. because really, they didnt. they attempted to takeover the minds with pathetic propoganda tactics like forcing the korean people to change names and forcing the korean people to learn the japanese language/writing. and then even when they were ousted they still say that they took over korea b/c it was korea's fault. THIS EXACT HISTORICAL REASON is WHY korea doesnt (doesnt need to acutally, b/c if japan said to the USA we bombed pearl harbor b/c u nuked us first, i doubt ANY united states people would admit/acknowledge ANY japanese people/inventions/products) acknowledge anything of japan. b/c their history is flawed. like i explained to you earlier hedkikr.
btw the gi thing. that original gi is still used in taekyon and hapkido. but like i said TKD is different from those two. and when Jhoon Rhee made the new styrophome armor, and sparring became more public (since you dont have to kick wood w/ ur feet like they used to in the old days, SEE ITS NOT ONLY KARATE THAT TRAINED LIKE THAT !!! WWWWOWWWWW!!) the traditional gi's w/ the knots on both sides of the hip would constantly untie and fall apart and the practicicioner would have to retie them every 2 minutes. so they just changed to the (if it makes you happy YOU can say its japanese) convenient gi's. but im sure anyone w/ good eyesight can compare adida's TKD gi's with Karate gi's and notice a crap load of difference.

[This message has been edited by xxjinhyungxx (edited 04-06-2005).]

#123111 - 04/23/05 07:13 AM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

Good job Jinhyung.

For the rest of the folks, do some homework before you decide to log on somewhere and feel like sounding smart & important behind your monitors. Realize that people trying to actually learn something might be taking ur dumazz comments to be true. How the heck did this become a history lesson anyways when some guy just wanted to know which ma to choose. becuz some morons decided to throw in "TKD is from Karate" or "Koreans need to not envy Japanese and make up lies" or "dont have a stroke man".

hell yea it makes sense for Jinhyung to be "pissed". u would be too if some fgt was throwing insults about ur culture that wasn't even true (that's u hedkikr w/ur dumbazz post about korea-japan envy. maybe u've been kicked in the head too many times) btw, samsung is the most profitable tech company in the world. Go ref businessweek. u say korea is 2nd in economic/mfg and use examples like "which will you buy samsung or sony"?? Economic or manufacturing capability isnt measured by "what do you want to buy?". now it's no big secret, economically japan is ahead of korea NOW (still room to catch up and it's happened in the last decade) but it makes sense that were behind considering what happened only 60 years ago. but like jinhyung said, that's not the reason. do u see korea hating on other countries that are more economically advanced? get ur facts & perspective straight. Koreans arent some angry people with a jealous rage towards anyone who's better than us.

Why don't you guys spitting trash about other cultures try to (1) think about it from other people's perspective first, what most of you guys are doing is insulting someone else's culture(2) Know the facts, the full facts. And if you've gone beyond that point and already insulted someone or their heritage on something you read online or studied at some junior college, then just admit when it's wrong and end it at that w/o turning it around on him with some poosy remarks like "you one angry korean" or "don't have a stroke man".

Bottom line, shut ur mouth on topics you really don't know too well about (and if u r not korean or were not in the japanese military camped in korea during the occupation, you pretty dont know much about it, so shut up) - emphasis on shutting your mouth if it's going to insult someone. For you fgts that think I'm going overboard, think about finding dumazzes writing insults about your country, that's not even true. I feel like I need to say something to prevent even 1 person from taking what these morons say as facts.

[This message has been edited by atbro (edited 04-23-2005).]

#123112 - 04/23/05 08:42 AM Re: Tae Kwon Do vs Karate

Interesting discussion.
I have trained in WTF, ITF, Karate from both Nahate and Shotokan traditions and Hapkido. (Don´t get me wrong, that isn´t a brag-if you saw how good I was you´d be laughing. I have just been arounf for a long time and moved a few times.)
I have also trained in some Kung Fu, although not to the same extent as the above.
To be frank, it is clear to anyone that has trained in the Japanese/ Okinawan systems and the Korean systems that they are closely related. Sure, the Koreans use higher stances (mostly) and are generally less comfortable with hand techniques and combinations while the Japanese and Okinawan systems are less comfortable with kicks and kick combinations. Sure the Korean systems go for more double strikes than the Japanese/ Okinawan systems and the knifehand blocks are structurally different. (Although I would guess that the Korean knifehand block had its origins in Kata Chinto or Kata Bassai)
But; The lineage of the Okinawan/ Japanese Kata is well documented. The Korean Hyung (Tul/ Poomse) as we currently kow them did not appear until after WW2.
The Hyung practised after WW2 were identical to the Japanese kata derived from the Shotokan tradition.
The Hyung at least came from Japan. Having said that; let me also say that it is clear that TKD has stopped trying to not be Japanese and has become truly Korean. I am not convinced that Teak Kyon has found its way into the TKD reportoire, the techniques appear too different. But, the Korean predeliction for, and attitude towards, kicking that Taek Kyon informed has certainly made inroads. Yes TKD is mostly sport, in that most clubs emphasise sport. But that is a far cry from saying that TKD is all sport. You can certainly use TKD for self defence; although for my taste I would lean more to using Hapkido than TKD.
Neo, for my part it all comes down to range. If you are at kicking range then TKD is a pretty good art. The kicks are fast, fluid and powerful. But I have found that many TKD stylists get very edgy when you move in closer to punching range. Karate is usually a better art than TKD at that point. The Shotokan arts are more distant than the Nahate arts so range is a primary factor.
When I first started to train I preferred to fight at long range, cos TKD was the style. But as I got into closer arts I found I was more comfy at other ranges.

As you may have noticed there is a lot of politics in the martial arts. You would think that the TKD claim to a long and seperate history from karate would have worn out and died, but no. For my par, I think the claims to being distinct historically and in tehnique are tosh. If you ever study an art derived from China or the Phillipines you will realise just how radically different the arts can be. Yet TKD is remarkably similar to Karate.
Incidentally, the same thing went on in Karate. The Japanese have kind of obscured the Okinawan arts connection too. Yet the similarities are clear. The similarities are also clear between the Okinawan arts and some Kung Fu, especially Fukien derived systems. But at each point, as the art is made ¨local¨ a distinct flavour develops and things change.
But, TKD is much, much nearer to Karate than, for example to the Pak Hok Pai (Tibetan White Crane). I think that similarity speaks for itself really. After that, just trace the history of the Hyung/ Kata and much of the story unfolds.

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