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#121373 - 06/30/04 09:12 AM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Schanne

Are you reading my posts??

Pretty clear ie I was specifc in terms of the "grappling" used in TKD of that period.

ie, throws, projections, joint locks etc.

Pretty clear that THERE WAS NOT much "ground fighting" aka they kind of things found in Greco-Roman, Gracie style stuff, etc

So yes, did PLENTY of "wrist locks" "arm bars" "chokes" DID NO "ground work" "ankle cranks" "working from the guard" etc.

Clear enough this time??

By the by, your WAY off base in terms of what "traditional MA's heard or saw."

About grappling--the Gracies entire base of techniques come DIRECTLY from Judo--taught to them by a Japanese teacher.

Some refinements to be sure--but the fundamential base is good, old fashioned traditional judo--which is a child of traditinal jujutsu.

Which is a very, very, very, old art.

Things like the "ankle cranks" you mention are found in a couple of jujutsu ryu that are 200-300 years old.

So I'd have to argue that in terms of what the Gracies do, or grappling period the really "traditional" martial artists would have seen MANY things like what the Gracies do.

Heck, in karate there are several applications from Nahanchi kata that are very close, "kissing cousins" to the "mount" and "guard" positions you mention.

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#121374 - 06/30/04 09:23 AM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Schanne

Kinda depends on what you consider "grappling".

I trained a a TKD school in the late 70's and there was a a pretty large grouping of throws, takedowns, joint locks, projections etc.

Grappling as in say collage wrestling or Greco-Roman or ground fighting or Garcie "stuff" no, not much.

About the same with the karate I study--most of it contains what I consider to be "grappling" application and training.

I don't know--close enough for a general statemen.

[/QUOTE]

AGREE, But I think your missing my pouint as well. Yes the art is very old but it just got really introduced and "marketed" the last few years....not arguing with you just trying to shed some light.

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#121375 - 06/30/04 10:26 AM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
Brian Mullen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 60
Loc: kcks USA
Would'nt the answer be Hapkido, which is if I am not mistaken the Korean form of grappling. And I am pretty sure that Hapkido in a pretty Old Art!!!!


Brian

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#121376 - 06/30/04 11:30 AM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Mullen:
Would'nt the answer be Hapkido, which is if I am not mistaken the Korean form of grappling. And I am pretty sure that Hapkido in a pretty Old Art!!!!


Brian
[/QUOTE]

We have to determine first what we consider grappling? Hapkido is mostly throws and takedowns from an agressor,after the agressor is taken down he is put into submission, so I suppose you could say it has Grappling in the style. But there is no wrestling around on the ground from the guard or anything like Jujitsu style of grappling. HPK incorporates wrist locks and standing arm locks etc.

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#121377 - 06/30/04 12:03 PM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
Ladies, ladies, ladies.

J and Silent Bob in the hiz..err..no.

This is only what *I* learned when *I* studied TKD at *ONE* particular school. Okay?

A) Kicks. both high and low.
B) Punches/hand strikes
C) Elbow strikes
D) Knees.
E) Take downs/Throws.
F) Standing locks/submissions
G) Ground defense/offense
H) Grounnd Locks/Submissions.

The school was a WTF TKD school. Now I am not saying it was as indepth in the F, G, H department as it was in the Kick/Punch department. But it was covered, quite well, I might add.

This was a school before the Gracies went on UFC. It is just how they taught TKD there. Period.

Maybe that school is the ananomly (spelling?).

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#121378 - 06/30/04 01:24 PM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
Brian Mullen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 60
Loc: kcks USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by schanne:
We have to determine first what we consider grappling? Hapkido is mostly throws and takedowns from an agressor,after the agressor is taken down he is put into submission, so I suppose you could say it has Grappling in the style. But there is no wrestling around on the ground from the guard or anything like Jujitsu style of grappling. HPK incorporates wrist locks and standing arm locks etc. [/QUOTE]
Not all Jujitsu is the same right???
And as for Hapkido is just throws and take downs i believe you are slightly misinformed,The "submissions" that you speak of would be breaks on the street. Hapkido was designed to take out a puncher/kicker.
What the Gracies did was just brought an ancient art back into the light and gave it a new name. Here around were I live we have the AKTA ( American Korean Tae Kwondo Assocition) were Grand Master Choon Lee Incorperates Hapkido with the "reg" tae kwon do. So I guess (grappling) in traditional tae kwon do has always been around, you just needed to know were to look!!!!

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#121379 - 07/04/04 08:15 AM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
Anonymous
Unregistered


Tae Kwon Do is an Olyumpic sport. It was concieved with that in mind in the late 1950s. The rules of the sport don't allow for grappling so why train for it? While just about every TKD school or club has a certain element of self defense taught, you have to remember that scoring a point it what TKD is about, not winning a fight. While some may not agree with this assessment, just do a little research on the histroy of Tae Kwon Do.

And think about it. How often do you train to kick to the kneecap? Do you ever train in street clothes like you be wearing if you do get into a fight? Do you train to attack the soft body parts often such as the groing, eyes and throat? Do you study the autokinetic reactions that hardwired into the human nervous system so you will know how a person will react to a specific blow?

I've never seen a TKD school that does these things. Tae Kwon Do tends to be a martial sport. There is nothing wrong with that, I'm not trying to knock TKD, I'm simply saying it is a specific format, designed for a sporting contest. If that is what you are interested in, along with all that goes along with it such as phiscial fitness, deispline and such, then TKD is a great way to go. However it want to learn how to WIN A FIGHT, there are better, more effective and more effecient.

Self defense is best approached in layers with the most involved and deepest layers being in simply awareness and avoidence rather than physcial contact.

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#121380 - 07/04/04 03:04 PM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
Anyone else think that the above post is so wrong it is almost beyond commenting on?

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#121381 - 07/04/04 07:23 PM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uriel:
Anyone else think that the above post is so wrong it is almost beyond commenting on?[/QUOTE]

No, not really. I think he has a point. TKD is now trained for as a sport more than a martial art. It's the same with most judo clubs, the sporting aspect has taken over. If it isn't used in the sport, why train for it.

Robert Dohrenwend's article on the history of Ch'ongdokwan has a few choice quotes in it from various high-ranking TKDists about TKD being a "martial sport": http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm

I hesitate to say that's why it was devisd, but it's certainly what it's becoming.

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#121382 - 07/04/04 10:29 PM Re: why teakwondo consists of little grappling
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
see your keyword is "now becoming"

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