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#121311 - 06/25/04 04:08 PM 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi!

For my black belt test I got a 22mm chip board breaking with a paro yop chagi, three tries, and flunked.
My question really, is: Do you guys think it fair that we got these boards for 1st dan black belt. I have only witnessed black-belt testing in our club, and noone has gotten these boards for their 1st dan test before that know. How is this compared to other club's black-belt test?

[This message has been edited by OgreWolf (edited 07-05-2004).]

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#121312 - 06/25/04 08:39 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
stop your bitching. I've seen smaller people break harder things.

It's technique, not weight.

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#121313 - 06/25/04 09:00 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
22m is pretty standard.

You are lucky you didn't have to break more.

Adults should be able to break atleast two boards with most hand techniques (excluding fingetip thrusts [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]).

And you should be able to break atleast three or four 22mm boards with a kick.

I remember watching one black belt grading where the boards were wet (makes it alot harder). Most of them still broke the boards.

At the last nationals a 55kg guys borke 4 boards with a step side kick.

Another 60kg guy borke three boards with a knife hand.

You failed because you wern't good enough, not because of the boards.

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#121314 - 06/25/04 10:31 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Breaking depends on many factors.

1.Mental attitude!!!
2.Hitting the center of the board.
3.The stability and strength of board holder.
4.The density of the material (timber can very a lot).
5.Speed of impact
6.Angle of impact.
7.Correct body alignment
8.Your balance during the technique.

I am not much heavier than you and have very little trouble breaking timber of this size and thicker.
As for the testing getting harder........ It should !!!!!

If it was hardest at white belt everyone would get to 4th dan with trouble but we must improve as we progress so the grading requirements must increase. My Master Mr Lee has said many times “all you have to do to pass is do your best”. If your instructor thought you could break a thick board than you probably can and just got worried about the thickness.

Don't think, Just Do It!

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#121315 - 06/26/04 08:20 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Ok, first thing, you should know the terminology by now if your testing for your BB. The Korean Side kick you failed at is "Yup Cha Ki"

We were to break with paro yop-chagi (what's that in english?).

My question really, is: Do you guys think it fair that we got these boards for 1st dan black belt test (with only 3 tries). It seems that the better you are, the harder the test is, which is backward.

BTW: I am 186cm tall and weigh 66kg, so I don't have much weight which counts for a lot.


Three tries are the rules, it's always been that way even when your at a tournament. Nothing wrong with your instructor pushing you a little during a BB test either, if you handle it well it show good MA character. Don't be discouraged, now that you know your own weekness you can perfect it and do better on your next test...Tang Soo!

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#121316 - 06/26/04 01:19 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, maybe I should be able to break it. However, to say that one should break 3 or four etc. is strange. The difficulty of breaking a board relies on many factors, the density of the chip board, the size (it is easier to break a 40x20cm than a 40x30cm board) etc.
And by the way, these are not boards from timber, but chip boards. And kiwi, wet chip boards are not harder. They smolder and become soft. Thats why you can't use chip boards when building stuff outside, but only for inner alls, floors etc.

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#121317 - 06/26/04 09:58 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
I was talking about pine boards in that instance.

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#121318 - 06/28/04 10:22 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OgreWolf:
Hi!

Two weeks ago I tested for black belt 1st dan, I had more than enough points when we got to the breaking (kyokpa or something in Korean), but I flunked my test because I did not break the 22mm thick chipboard in 3 tries (an almost quadractic board). We were to break with paro yop-chagi (what's that in english?).
This is the first time ever anyone have gotten this thick boards for their 1st dan testing. We were 3 who got it. only one made it. And he weighs about 25-30kilos (or so he said) more than me (thats 55-66 pounds for you non-metric guys). I was told that I got this thick board because my "master" was sure I could do it.
My question really, is: Do you guys think it fair that we got these boards for 1st dan black belt test (with only 3 tries). It seems that the better you are, the harder the test is, which is backward.

BTW: I am 186cm tall and weigh 66kg, so I don't have much weight which counts for a lot.

[This message has been edited by OgreWolf (edited 06-25-2004).]
[/QUOTE]I'm not sure how hard it is to break chipboard as opposed to the usual pine boards, but, it seems to me that someone of your size should have no problem breaking a 22mm board with any kind of side kick, assuming your technique is right. My son broke two 8X12X1 pine boards with a flying side kick and with a 360 kick at his black belt testing, and he weighed under 60 pounds (27 kilos) at the time.

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#121319 - 06/28/04 11:01 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
I never heard of anyone ever using chip boards for breaking, pine boards are the norm....wierd. Know wonder they didn't break, flake board, chip boards are the same and they are made from scrap wood that is mixed with a glue and pressed into 4x8 sheets. It is very similar to plywood but cheaper. Also there is no grain in chipwood and do to that it is more difficult to break, and you tried to break three of them at once.....LOL

[This message has been edited by schanne (edited 06-28-2004).]

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#121320 - 06/28/04 11:34 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


I entered a real poorly organized tournament once where they user a type of chipboard instead of pine. I found out latter that this was because they got it cheap of a building site.(Really cheap!) Anyway I can be broken but it has a tendency to break around to contact area. ie: you punch or kick a hole in the board. Side kick was the best method I saw used. The board were only broken one at a time and still it was much hard to do then most pine boards. I don't recommend using it as most people (including me) had heaps of little scratches from all the chips and the mess was much worse then break pine of any other real timber. Bits of wood chips all across the floor. So I learned 2 things that day. Don't go into crap tournaments and stick with pine board.

If timber is too expensive or you want consistancy in the breaking strength I have used the "ultimate martial arts board" rebreakable's for the past 8 years and found that these a a great training tool and you don't need a truck load of timber every class you have students practicing breaking techniques.

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#121321 - 06/28/04 03:24 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's it. Thank you. Kiwi tried to tell me I could break 3-4 22mm chip boards with a kick. Not a chance in h***.
One of the 2nd dan's got 2 boards for his 2nd dan test with a "fly kick" and had trouble breaking it, he moved the whole column of guys trying to hold the board. The strange things are that only one of the ones testing for 2nd dan got the 22mm board, and his was more rectangular (ok, I know that this is an erronous consept, since a square too is a rectangle, but less square. :P ).

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#121322 - 06/28/04 04:58 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
Since a poster here broke a chip board before and since I have also broken one.

Unless you are retarded, you too can break one.

Just remember they don't break like normal boards. I found it insteresting that the person that did break it said the things about the scratches and such. That was my major annoyance after breaking it too. There really isn't a clean break, almost as if the board shatters instead.

But to the person that can't break it. Give up or don't. Up to you.

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#121323 - 06/28/04 05:36 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have no problem breaking normal chip boards, but the 22mm is very difficult.

[This message has been edited by OgreWolf (edited 06-29-2004).]

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#121324 - 06/29/04 08:31 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OgreWolf:
paro yop-chagi/B][/QUOTE]
Can you describe this kick for us? i.e. starting stance, kick with front or back leg, which way do you turn, etc.? I looked through Gen. Choi's encyclopedia last night, and couldn't find this kick listed.


[This message has been edited by ipscshooter (edited 06-29-2004).]

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#121325 - 07/05/04 03:49 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here is my advice and please don't take it the wrong way. First, how long have you trained? Were you ready? You should never test if not ready. Next, if your technique is correct and mental attitude is right, then there could have been bricks in front of that technique and they would break. Stop focusing of the boards and just do the kick, don't even see them!

Now, here are the facts. YOU failed your test, and YOU were not ready. YOU did not train hard enough and YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO QUESTION YOUR INSTRUCTOR!!

I HOPE THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING BEHIND YOUR INSTRUCTOR'S BACK IN WRITING THIS ENTRY. IF SO, YOU HAVE BROKEN THE SACRED TRUST BETWEEN INSTRUCTOR AND STUDENT! THE MERE FACT THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO PLACE BLAME ON YOUR INSTRUCTOR TELLS ME 2 THINGS: YOU REFUSE TO ADMIT THAT YOU FAILED YOURSELF AND YOU DO NOT RESPECT YOUR INSTUCTOR!!! HONESTLY, DUE TO THIS, ALLOWING YOU TO WEAR A BLACK BELT WOULD ONLY CONTRIBUTE TO RANK INFLATION.

Again, don't take this the wrong way. I am of the old school of martial arts. My students train bare-foot on concrete and dirt. They are thrown to the ground with no padding. They break knuckles on boards, but keep punching them until they break. This is all at green belt.

At black belt, honestly, you should only get one chance to break. Thats what you get in a fight isn't it?

Keep in mind that rank is only a belt, and it is only worth what you put into it. "The destination is less important than the journey"

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#121326 - 07/05/04 05:55 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


I realize that I should be able to do it, and I am. It might have sounded like I was trying to put the blame on my instructor, I was pretty upset at the time.
I only started this post because I wanted to know how our test is in contrast to other clubs, since I have only witnessed testing in our club. The problem is that the requirements seem to change from every time, and it is hard to prepare for the unknown. There has also been alot of controversy around our club and instructor, disputes between other clubs and the national organization etc.

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#121327 - 07/05/04 06:01 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by ipscshooter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OgreWolf:
paro yop-chagi/B][/QUOTE]
Can you describe this kick for us? i.e. starting stance, kick with front or back leg, which way do you turn, etc.? I looked through Gen. Choi's encyclopedia last night, and couldn't find this kick listed.


[This message has been edited by ipscshooter (edited 06-29-2004).]
[/QUOTE]


Paro means backward, or reversed, yop chagi means side kick. So a reversed side kick. Starting with your back leg, rotating 180 degrees "backward" with a side kick. Did that explain it?

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#121328 - 07/05/04 10:23 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
so it's a spin back kick.

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#121329 - 07/05/04 11:11 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay, our test lasts about 3 hours. We do not break boards for testing, but there are many other things involved. All forms from the system must be performed. All one step techniques. Self Defense Demo. Teaching test. Fighting with under belts for teaching. Fighting with brown belts. Fighting with black belts. Fighting with visiting black belt. Fighting brown belts two on one. When you can no longer stand on your own, you must fight your instructor. Instructor then tries to punch you bare knuckle to the face with no warning. If he hits you, then you fail. Philosophical question and answer. These are many of the things that happen at our 1st dan test. We always know just what to expect, as it doesn't change.

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#121330 - 07/19/04 01:57 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Again, don't take this the wrong way. I am of the old school of martial arts. My students train bare-foot on concrete and dirt. They are thrown to the ground with no padding. They break knuckles on boards, but keep punching them until they break. This is all at green belt.

No offense, but that's ridiculous. I understand you are from the old school of martial arts, but maybe there's a reason there's a new school of martial arts. The reason is...safety.

If you are having your green belt students break knuckles on boards, are you sure they are ready for breaking boards? The inexpierienced shouldn't be breaking boards and the expierienced wouldn't break knuckles on boards.

When you can no longer stand on your own, you must fight your instructor. Instructor then tries to punch you bare knuckle to the face with no warning. If he hits you, then you fail.

If your student fails, you fail. It's YOUR job as an instructor not to punch someone in the face and be like, Oh, you fail. You should have blocked it, but rather, made sure they could block it before testing them.

Don't get me wrong. My black belt testing was a lot like the one you require, without the punching-in-the-face thing. I just think there is a line between insanity and safety. You're the instructor, it's your job that your students don't fail and it's your job that they can learn the martial arts without breaking their hands all the time.

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#121331 - 07/19/04 03:18 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
goldencrane Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 432
Loc: Kansas City Kansas USA
I Totally agree with hanna.

The martial arts have evolved in the past 20-30 years, maybe you should too.

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#121332 - 07/21/04 03:28 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hannah, thanks for the reply. Maybe I got carried away before. I understand safety and am very concerned about it, though it may seem that I am not. I do agree with much of what you said. Very seldom do my students get hurt, and if they do it is often a bruise from blocking drills or something like that. I do not make it routine to have my students break their hands on boards, though my previous post may have read that way (if so it was unintentional). Typically they are very much ready to break boards when I give them the opportunity. Still, though there is a mental barrier that must be broken on the first board break for a student. No matter how hard they punch, when you put that board in front of them many student will hold back. Yes, it is my job to be sure that they are ready before they go to break. I also see it as my job to encourage my students not to quit, even if they are a little hurt. In real life, you may get hurt in a fight and must continue. I do monitor the board breaking, and while most break on the first attempt, some do not. Before I had just come in from class when a student of mine had to take about 4 or 5 tries to break his first board and I was a little jazzed up from that. I was just very proud of his accomplishment and that he pushed through the pain to finally break. I teach to finish what you start (This does not refer to starting fights). If the student truly had hurt his hand to the point of bleeding or where he could not go on I would have stopped it. Each time i just asked him if he wanted to continue and he did, I examined his hand and it was well enough to go on. I would simply coach him along until he broke.

We do some throws on the ground with no matting, since there is no matting on the street. I seems to neglect this would be truly unrealistic. It is not something we do all the time, but something that I feel they need a taste of. I feel that if I do not try to prepare my students for what can realisitically happen in a fight, then I have failed them. This, I feel is another responsibility of the instructor. Other times, we use mats. Nobody has been hurt due wo this training, due to using proper breakfalls and rolls.

As far as the test goes, I like the fact that we keep it realisitc. The rule is that if the instructor hits you in the face with the bare knuckle punch, then you fail. Yes, it is my job to be sure that they can block the punch! Accordingly, nobody has failed due to this issue. In my opinion, truly if a person cannot block a punch to the head they should not earn the rank of black belt.

If I seemed a bit over-the-top hardcore before, I apologize. I just wanted to push the issue that "If it was easy, everyone would do it." Maybe I got a bit carried away. Stay dedicated and keep training hard and there is nothing you cannot accomplish. Yes, I think that safety should ba a top priority and it is at my school. I also think that there must be a balance between safety and realism in training. In a fight, there are no padded gloves, but if we train too realistically then we could get hurt while trying to learn how to avoid getting hurt. It is a delicate balance and different schools balance it different ways. This is just the way I do things and the way I believe that they should be done. I appreciate your earlier replies, train hard!

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#121333 - 07/21/04 08:56 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
StormDOA Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 142
Loc: Lansing, Mich., USA
I think a black belt test should be insanely hard, but it should be within your abilities. In our school I used to get angry and frustrated because the testings were much easiar than what I remember. But I understand now that really your test is almost a demonstration.
WE do two tests, a pretest at another instructors school which is usually very hard and unforgiving, but still it is within your instructors assessment of your abilities. And then we do a second big testing to recieve your actual belt. But the big test is much easiar, well within your abilities. This is the test that is open to the general public. So it is everyones best interest to put on a good face. One of my peers for example broke a baseball bat with a roundhouse kick in his pretest and then did only 2 boards with a standing or front leg side kick for the big test.
My point is that really you should not be testing unless you have already passed.

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#121334 - 07/22/04 12:32 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Slayr, that clears a few things up. From your first two posts it seemed a little...extreme.

I don't quite understand the point of having two tests, especially if the last one isn't really a "test". Why not do the test and have that be it?

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#121335 - 09/07/04 10:15 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hannah:
"Again, don't take this the wrong way. I am of the old school of martial arts. My students train bare-foot on concrete and dirt. They are thrown to the ground with no padding. They break knuckles on boards, but keep punching them until they break. This is all at green belt. "

No offense, but that's ridiculous. I understand you are from the "old school" of martial arts, but maybe there's a reason there's a "new school" of martial arts. The reason is...safety.

If you are having your green belt students break knuckles on boards, are you sure they are ready for breaking boards? The inexpierienced shouldn't be breaking boards and the expierienced wouldn't break knuckles on boards.

"When you can no longer stand on your own, you must fight your instructor. Instructor then tries to punch you bare knuckle to the face with no warning. If he hits you, then you fail. "

If your student fails, you fail. It's YOUR job as an instructor not to punch someone in the face and be like, "Oh, you fail. You should have blocked it," but rather, made sure they could block it before testing them.

Don't get me wrong. My black belt testing was a lot like the one you require, without the punching-in-the-face thing. I just think there is a line between insanity and safety. You're the instructor, it's your job that your students don't fail and it's your job that they can learn the martial arts without breaking their hands all the time.
[/QUOTE]

If you have a website please send it to me.

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#121336 - 09/16/04 07:10 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


jesus christ, stop whinin i am 13 year old karate student
and for my green belt i had to break 13 boards with 13 different moves, it is easy.

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#121337 - 09/21/04 06:59 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's ridiculous. It's so different here in Australia. In korea, u do nothing. You just have to do some poomse in front of some random people and u just have to spar sum1. And actually isn't the first dan Red/black?

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#121338 - 10/14/04 11:02 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Our school uses simple pine boards, not clear pine. I would imagine that chip boards would be tough. I believe the boards are 1 inch, which probably dresses out at 20 mm.

Board braking starts at the yellow going to orange level, with a simple rear leg side kick. My current level, Blue going for red stripe, requires a 360 hook kick. My last test required a 180 hook kick. I believe the black belts require hand breaks in addition to the kicking break. My instructor told me that the board hold at black belt is with the thumb and index finger.

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#121339 - 10/15/04 03:59 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


For my BB grading I had to break 3 pine boards with a spinning back kick.

In my experience there's not a lot of difference between chip-board and pine.

After 12 years of TKD, and being the Former British Demolition & Destruction Champion for 3 years (in the late 90's) I can honestly say that breaking IS NOT GOOD FOR YOU.

I'm 33 and was recently diagnosed with arthritis in my middle knuckle from Breaking.

[IMG]http://www.go-fishing.org/upload/files/fist.jpg[/IMG]

Ok, I broke bricks, breeze blocks, wood, tiles, ice, etc, but I was assured at the beginning of my TKD journey that it would be ok to do so.

In my Academy the students have the option to break, they don't, and won't, have to, in a grading.

Just my 2p (2c).

Gaffer.

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#121340 - 10/17/04 08:47 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, Gaffer that is one mean looking knuckle. I am surprised to read that there isn't much difference between chip board and pine, I would have thought it would be considerably different.

I saw a video clip on the net awhile ago, and there was this Japanese Karate master ramming his fists repeatedly into buckets of nails. That just can't be good for you.

Most of the breaks I have seen in TKD, I admit that I am relatively new at, have been with the feet with the odd ridge hand or knife hand thrown in.

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#121341 - 11/07/04 07:56 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


I cant believe that there are clubs that put so much emphasis on breaking.

Still - to each his own I suppose.

*shrug*

Lets just be clear, however. Breaking is by no means any kind of indicator of your skill as a martial artist.

I can and have taught people with NO martial arts experience to break 1.5 inch concrete patio slabs in five minutes, and then watched while they did it.

Take it from a long time breaker - it takes no skill. A little attitude and a tight fist maybe, but skill???

Nope.

Korb

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#121342 - 11/08/04 03:53 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmm when I became a bb in tkd our test didnt use breaking as a matter of fact no test did we had to be able to fight effectivly 3 on one and had to fight every bb at the test one right after another. Thats how we proved our skill not by breaking boards that is a waste of time. As the late bruce lee said: Boards dont hit back

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#121343 - 11/10/04 08:50 PM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


well when my instructor tells us to do breaking (every belt has to) for the black belts he tells me/the rest of us to do like drop kick, or triple round house (near 3d degree belt) or scisor kick round house, things like these , he makes us break some of the real thick boards, but for the color belts he gives them little tiny wood, that when u blow on it it can break (ok ok not that tiny) so that explains my school.

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#121344 - 11/12/04 09:41 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


I used to wonder why we broke boards but now that I'm a 3rd gup red stripe I understand it much more.

Breaking boards in my opinion is to help perfect the techniques shown in class to create muscle memory. For instance, we punch in class but how many times do you or others get lazy and don't put your hand correct. Well punching a board if done incorrectly can hurt or even break your hand. You'll only do this once. The same thing for front kicks, by breaking the board you have to remember to pull your toes back. Or side kick, you have to remember to pump the leg and not push with it.

We've been taught back round houses and I thought I knew what I was doing but not until I had to do this break did I really start to understand it. Now I always turn my head and use my hips to hit through the board or person for that matter. And now I purposely do it with my heal.

It's not just breaking boards to show you can, it is emphasing that you know the technique. There are reasons why we do things that we may not understand but there is a purpose. Yes boards don't hit back but you have to crawl before you can walk.

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#121345 - 11/13/04 12:02 AM Re: 1st dan black belt test
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thats interesting I learned how to hit properly while sparring I learned how to kick properly while sparring. Bones can get broken while sparring to but its alot less common. The benifits are far greater then learning how to strike properly with boards. Why risk breaking your hand or foot just to break a board. Just one of my kicks can cause internal damage easily I didnt learn how to hit properly with boards. I learned through sparring and forms the dynamics of proper technique. If one is to lazy then the instuctors arent doing their job on motivating.If I didnt hit effectivly first I got hit and dropped that motivates a person way more then breaking inanimate objects.

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