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#120669 - 05/06/04 07:42 AM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi TKD info:

However you did say that you had to notify the perp that you were a blackbelt. You haven't commented further on this statement, which is garbage.

As for you hands/feet being lethal weapons in the eyes of the law, you have not backed this up in any way. I, like Uriel, would like to know of any statutes where this is the case.

JohnL

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#120670 - 05/06/04 10:48 AM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
TKD Info,

I, like John L, wonder if you actually do read any of our posts or maybe suffer from a slight mental disfunction and just post random thoughts instead?

I still await any "proof" for you to back up your "opinions".

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#120671 - 05/07/04 12:55 AM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
TKD info Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 56
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi TKD info:

However you did say that you had to notify the perp that you were a blackbelt. You haven't commented further on this statement, which is garbage.

As for you hands/feet being lethal weapons in the eyes of the law, you have not backed this up in any way. I, like Uriel, would like to know of any statutes where this is the case.

JohnL
[/QUOTE]

John please visit this sight in regards our hands and feet are considered deadly weapons.
http://home.earthlink.net/~haskman/va_law.htm

. DEFINITION OF SELF DEFENSE

A. Self defense is a law of necessity.

B . The amount of force used in self defense must be reasonable under the circumstances.

C. Deadly force cannot be used in self defense unless there is a reasonable fear that the person is in danger of being killed or suffering great bodily harm.

D. Deadly force is most often defined as using a deadly weapon (see section V, Malice), but hands and fists can be deadly weapons when they are repeatedly used against an unresisting or incapacitated person.

C. Self defense is viewed from the mind of the person acting in self defense. (ie. Does this person have a reasonable fear of some harm that justifies his acting in self defense.).

F. Two types of self defense: Justifiable (no fault) and Excusable (partly to blame for the conflict).

G. The general self defense jury instruction:

THE COURT INSTRUCTS THE JURY THAT the amount of force used in self-defense must be reasonable in relation to the harm threatened, and that the defendant is not allowed to use deadly force in self- defense unless he reasonably feared, under the circumstances as they appeared to him, that he was in danger of being killed or that he was in danger of great bodily harm.

[This message has been edited by TKD info (edited 05-07-2004).]

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#120672 - 05/07/04 12:56 AM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
TKD info Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 56
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uriel:
TKD Info,

I, like John L, wonder if you actually do read any of our posts or maybe suffer from a slight mental disfunction and just post random thoughts instead?

I still await any "proof" for you to back up your "opinions".
[/QUOTE]

You are the better MAN. I leave it at that.

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#120673 - 05/07/04 02:25 AM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TKD info:
John please visit this sight in regards our hands and feet are considered deadly weapons.
http://home.earthlink.net/~haskman/va_law.htm

. DEFINITION OF SELF DEFENSE

A. Self defense is a law of necessity.

B . The amount of force used in self defense must be reasonable under the circumstances.

C. Deadly force cannot be used in self defense unless there is a reasonable fear that the person is in danger of being killed or suffering great bodily harm.

D. Deadly force is most often defined as using a deadly weapon (see section V, Malice), but hands and fists can be deadly weapons when they are repeatedly used against an unresisting or incapacitated person.

C. Self defense is viewed from the mind of the person acting in self defense. (ie. Does this person have a reasonable fear of some harm that justifies his acting in self defense.).

F. Two types of self defense: Justifiable (no fault) and Excusable (partly to blame for the conflict).

G. The general self defense jury instruction:

THE COURT INSTRUCTS THE JURY THAT the amount of force used in self-defense must be reasonable in relation to the harm threatened, and that the defendant is not allowed to use deadly force in self- defense unless he reasonably feared, under the circumstances as they appeared to him, that he was in danger of being killed or that he was in danger of great bodily harm.

[This message has been edited by TKD info (edited 05-07-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

So basically you just posted something that backed up John and my claim. Nowhere do you state in this post that you have to register as a lethal weapon (which we both told you was bull) nor that you have to tell someone you are a bb before fighting (which is bull too)

I think you (or myself) is misunderstanding the subject of having the hands/feet concidered LETHAL weapons. *I* am saying (I can't speak for John) that since YOU said that the Hands/Feet were Lethal Weapons and needed to be registered as such...that you should prove this as I have posted facts otherwise. What you just posted here was saying that the feet/hands can be concidered a deadly weapon if they beat someone to death. A PILLOW can be used as a deadly weapon via suffercation. What you stated before and what you are discussing/trying to "prove" now are two TOTALLY seperate issues.

But remember one thing about website definitions...they are just that. Websites

[This message has been edited by Uriel (edited 05-07-2004).]

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#120674 - 05/07/04 04:19 AM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
TKD info Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 56
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uriel:
So basically you just posted something that backed up John and my claim. Nowhere do you state in this post that you have to register as a lethal weapon (which we both told you was bull) nor that you have to tell someone you are a bb before fighting (which is bull too)

I think you (or myself) is misunderstanding the subject of having the hands/feet considered LETHAL weapons. *I* am saying (I can't speak for John) that since YOU said that the Hands/Feet were Lethal Weapons and needed to be registered as such...that you should prove this as I have posted facts otherwise. What you just posted here was saying that the feet/hands can be concidered a deadly weapon if they beat someone to death. A PILLOW can be used as a deadly weapon via suffercation. What you stated before and what you are discussing/trying to "prove" now are two TOTALLY seperate issues.

But remember one thing about website definitions...they are just that. Websites

[This message has been edited by Uriel (edited 05-07-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

Uriel in your response, okay regarding registering, in my previous posts I typed in parathesis that those that are martial artist should look into their local law so that they are knowledgeable of what is considered justifiable self defense. So registering at their local police station, I never said that nor did I say that registering your hands or feet as a lethal weapon either. I said by law, especially in Virginia a person can be considered as a lethal weapon or deadly.

i.e., D. Deadly force is most often defined as using a deadly weapon (see section V, Malice), but hands and fists can be deadly weapons when they are repeatedly used against an unresisting or incapacitated person.

That proves my point regarding the fact we are considered lethal or deadly weapons if we abused the situation at hand.

I did not bring up registering JohnL did, please look at his post above


posted 05-03-2004 08:25 AM You do not need to tell any perp that you are a blackbelt, nor do you have to register your hands/feet as lethal weapons.

You're talking total garbage.

JohnL

Secondly, regarding telling your perp that you know martial arts. That is questionable, I agree, I even brought this debative issue to my friend Mr. Kaufman. Although, he did mention, by avoiding the situation and volunteering information as that may play both ways (personally which I never thought) good and or bad, it may even get you out of the predicament. My brother had an incident in which he was close to defending himself when he had mention to a person that he knew martial arts, at that time, who would of known, but, the guy withdrew. So, to correct my self, do you need to say that you are a black belt, I am WRONG, i admit that, would it help, that is a personal preference. Have I proven that you have to mention that you are a black belt, no, but it has helped out people in the court system here in Virginia.

So all in all, yes I am partially wrong in regards to YOU HAVE TO TELL A PERP YOU ARE A BLACK BELT, its the law. Local law districts may vary, so I can only speak for the state of Virginia.

Now regarding registering your hands, I never brought that issue up, John did so if you want to bash someone do so to him. I did say that your hands are letal and feet are, and yes the law agrees as well. Yes, if a pillow can be use to kill someone, then as considered by law a lethal weapon.

So now that I have proved myself partially, you can now get off my back and stop bashing myself and or other people. This forum is about learning from each other, as I did with you. So be mature and admit that their was some miscommunication from either your part or even Johns.

And stop calling people kid or child or rudely offend people. What you posted was reasonable and acceptable. I learned and only posted what facts I had, and accepted what faults I made.

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#120675 - 05/07/04 09:56 AM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
Ah you see John's post came directly from questioning your own post.

TKD Info, you are getting "better" but you still need to stop and read things...as we all do.

If one of us says "I cannot believe you just said such and such" and you don't think you said it then STATE it in another post. Don't try to jump on us for mis-reading (or maybe we did read it correctly) the posts INTENT.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#120676 - 05/18/04 12:07 PM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey I was not a member at the time ya'll were discussing this but i had to weigh in on this topic even if it is late. I did not have time to do the sign up b/c I was at work (teaching tkd in a junior high school) but I have been in the ATA for 13 years and doing tkd for 15 and would like to say it is no joke-and is not a McDojang. At least not where I was taught or at the school I help run.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Applepie:
Why is ATA so bad? My instructor has kept people at their belts if they weren't ready, and has even taken them away when students were disrespectful. [/QUOTE]

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#120677 - 05/18/04 07:41 PM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
I am glad you found what you were looking for in the ATA.

:: wonders who else thinks I must be severely medicated right now ::

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#120678 - 05/19/04 06:21 AM Re: Why is ATA so bad?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I emailed Mr. Kaufman about the notifying a perp. issue, and he flat out told me it was an urban myth he first heared about back in 1965. Anyway, I hope that settles that issue :P I knew it certainly wasn't true here in Ohio... just not practical anyway. If you have time to have a conversation with your attacker, you probably have a chance to avoid the fight entirely, in my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Baji Brad (edited 05-19-2004).]

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