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#120146 - 11/24/03 03:10 PM Myths about point sparring
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Just want to expose soe myths about ITF TKD point sparring.

No punches to the head. Perfectly legal, as long as there not to the back of the head.

Touch contact. At a senior level, absessive contact only occurs when you hit somone very hard in an illegal area e.g. In a recent fight i got called twice for this, as my opponent was running out of the corner I chased him and stuck him several times in the back of the head (don't tink much in the ring). I have seen knockouts not called obsessive contact because they were totally legal shots.

Punches don't work. I recently won a fight, and my entire strategy was to keep at bay scoring a few kciks to the head region, when he became careless I would run in and punch, until he was pushed out of the ring or knocked over. This is a very comon strategy, used by a lot of top ITF point sparrers.

anyone else want to share soem stories about tornament or expose some more isconceptions about point sparring?

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 11-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 11-24-2003).]

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#120147 - 11/25/03 08:47 AM Re: Myths about point sparring
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
This isn't point stop sparrig is it Kiwi?

You know when you hit the other person then you go back to the middle? It doesn't sound like it.

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#120148 - 11/25/03 10:58 AM Re: Myths about point sparring
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Kiwi

Just thought I'd try and add a bit of more precise info on TKD sparring.

POINT AWARDS
A. One (1) point will be awarded for: Hand attack directed to mid or high section, hand attack while in air (both feet must be off the ground) directed to mid section, foot attack directed to mid section, perfect block.
B. Two (2) points will be awarded for: Foot attack directed to high section, hand attack while in air (both feet must be off the ground) directed to high section, jumping or flying kick directed to mid section.
C. Three (3) points will be awarded for: Jumping or flying kick directed to high section.

Article 35. SCORING PROCEDURE
In competition a technique is valid when:
A. it is executed correctly,
B. it is dynamic, that is to say it is delivered with strength, purpose, rapidity and precision,
C. it is controlled on the target,
D. perfect block:
i.) defender must maintain complete balance,
ii.) an appropriate blocking tool must be used,
iii.) block must be powerful and accurate,
iv.) defence must be maintained at a proper distance,
v.) opponents balance must be broken.

Article 36. DISQUALIFICATION
A. Misconduct against officials or ignoring instructions.
B. Heavy contact.
C. Committing 3 fouls.
D. Any competitor suspected of being under influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs.

Article 37. FOULS
One point will be deducted for the following offences:
A. Loss of temper,
B. insulting an opponent in any way,
C. biting/scratching/clawing,
D. attacking with the knee, elbow or forehead,
E. attacking a fallen opponent,
F. contact.
NB. The sum of 3 warnings automatically means deducting 1 point.

It's interesting that TKD's rules have led to the over use of feet and under use of hands. In addition as no sweeping is allowed it has developed into people hopping around on one leg.

Contact is considered a foul and heavy contact is cause for disqualification.

JohnL

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#120149 - 11/25/03 02:08 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
You need to go into some TKD point sparring copetitions. Nowadays (and I can't speak fo all organisations) at senior levels you either have to throw a haymaker (not a TKD technique) or strike the opponent hard in an illegal area. I have been in many point sparring competitions, and at a senior level (doesn't apply for the kiddies), hese are the only ways i've seen points deducted for heavy contact.

Where the hell did you get those rules from JOhn?. Contact a foul (that means touching the opponent). Thats not points sparring thats no contact sparring.

Got to go to school will post the real rules up in about seven hours.

Heavy contact is foul and results in the loss of one point, and as I've said the only way you are going to be called for heavy contact in the senior divisions is to do what i've said above.

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#120150 - 11/25/03 03:18 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiwi:
You need to go into some TKD point sparring copetitions. Nowadays (and I can't speak fo all organisations) at senior levels you either have to throw a haymaker (not a TKD technique) or strike the opponent hard in an illegal area. I have been in many point sparring competitions, and at a senior level (doesn't apply for the kiddies), hese are the only ways i've seen points deducted for heavy contact.

Where the hell did you get those rules from JOhn?. Contact a foul (that means touching the opponent). Thats not points sparring thats no contact sparring.

Got to go to school will post the real rules up in about seven hours.

Heavy contact is foul and results in the loss of one point, and as I've said the only way you are going to be called for heavy contact in the senior divisions is to do what i've said above.
[/QUOTE]

As in one of your earlier posts (Agism thread) you said you did ITF Taekwondo, I copied the rules from the ITF site.

Apparently these are your own rules but you don't know anything about them.

JohnL

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#120151 - 11/25/03 08:54 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
John, this is once again a problem caused by the fracturing of ITF. anyway here are the rules I downloaded from www.itftaekwondo.com.

Warnings:
Warnings may be issued by the referee under the following circumstances;
1. Attack to an illegal target
2. Stepping completely out of the ring with both feet
3. Falling down, whether it be intentional or not
4. Holding / Grabbing / Pushing
5. Sweeping
6. Intentionally avoiding sparring
7. Pretending to be hurt
8. Turning your back to your opponent
9. Uncontrolled technique
10. Talking during the bout

Deduction of Points: For any three warnings that you receive, one point will be deducted, cumulative across the rounds

Fouls:
A foul will be given for any of the following offences;
1. Attacking a fallen opponent
2. Head butting, biting, scratching or clawing
3. Intentional attack after the stop of the bout
4. Making insulting remarks or gestures during the bout
5. Using the knee, elbow or forearm as an attacking tool
6. Excessive contact continuously.

Disqualifications:
Disqualification of a contestant will occur when;
1. Three fouls are awarded against a contestant during the contest.
2. The opponent is unable to continue due to illegal or excessive contact
3. The contestant disobeys the referee
4. The contestant leaves the ring before the announcement of the result
5. The contestant does not report to the ring marshal when called before the bout
6. Any contestant that enters the ring without all of the required safety protection, or where the equipment is not in good repair. A three minute time limit is awarded
7. Any contestant who fails an eight or ten count not due to an illegal or excessive attack
8. Any contestant who is unable to continue with the bout, or unable to defend themselves adequately as determined by the referee. The result will be awarded to the opponent
9. Any competitor suspected of being under the influence of alcohol or illegal substances
10. Any competitor who is deemed dangerous to the other competitor and highly likely to cause serious injury.

Anyway as I've said earlier despite competing in three national level competitions (and numerous regional and state). I've only seen people called for hitting to hard when its to an illegal area, not a TKD technique ,or kids are sparring (by kids I mean persons under twelve).

The knockout I saw was a back kick directly to the chin (first time ive ever seen this happen). As there was obviously no malicious intent and the technique was completely legal, he was not disqualified (even if there had been, the person managed to get up before the eight count, so he would not have been disqualified).

The reason I posted this is a lot of people such as yourself read a set of rules and think they can base there opinions on point sparring around that.


[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 11-25-2003).]

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#120152 - 11/25/03 09:07 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
The overuse of feet an underuse of hands occurs in Olympic and WTF style TKD, because no hands are allowed to the face. hoping around the ring throwing side kicks does not work, I've never seen even a reasonable point sparrer do this. It's simple I can walk back faster then someone can hop after me thrwoing a side kick. Also this expends more energy then just walking backwards.

I would have to say that hands andd feet are used about equally in ITF sparring. This is simply because at close range hands are so much quicker. However kicks are much easier for all the judges to see and can be used at long range.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 11-25-2003).]

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#120153 - 11/25/03 10:14 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Do you guys use those big chest and rib protectors that I always see tae kwon do guys wearing when they fight. If so, why?

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#120154 - 11/25/03 10:32 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
The answer ot both big bear and medulanets quetions is no.

We are required to wear only gloves and foot padding (and of course groin and mouth guards). some people wear shin guards, however the majority do not.

Again we have ITF point sparring being confused with WTF and olympic.

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#120155 - 11/26/03 07:22 AM Re: Myths about point sparring
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi kiwi:

Yes it can be difficult to tell the difference between ITF TKD and ITF TKD. Clearly not to be confused with ITF TKD [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

However you seem to have posted your views on your ITF TKD in an attempt to show how "hard" your point sparring is.

I followed your link to your ITF TKD site and copied their rules for point sparring, these are as below;

Awards.

Awards are given as points when you score a successful attack to a legal scoring area. Awards can be given out a 1 point, 2 points, or 3 points. Technically, to score a point you don't have to hit your opponent but to come within one to two inches of a scoring area. However at some tournaments, judges may not score this, so it is better to make controlled contact on the target.

ITF Point Scoring

1 point score

Foot attack to the middle section.

Hand attack to High/Middle section


2 points score

Foot attack to the High section

Mid-air hand attack to the High Section

Mid-air foot attack to the Middle section



3 Point Score

Mid-air foot attack to the High Section.


All sounds like pretty standard TKD rules to me. Your description of the contact allowed is clearly outside the rules of your association. I'm amazed that you haven't been thrown out of your association yet.

JohnL

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#120156 - 11/26/03 09:48 AM Re: Myths about point sparring
dazzler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 296
Loc: England
We are not the peoples front of judea..we are the judean peoples front...!!

Sorry - completely irrelevant to real arguement but do you think the monty python team knew about MAs?

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#120157 - 11/26/03 10:10 AM Re: Myths about point sparring
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dazzler:
We are not the peoples front of judea..we are the judean peoples front...!!
B][/QUOTE]

Now that's funny [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#120158 - 11/26/03 02:24 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Points:
High Section is above the neck Middle section is waist to shoulders.
Points will be awarded for successfully delivered attacks. Each attack must be controlled and light contact is required to score.
1 POINT will be awarded for;
Hand attack to mid or high section
Foot attack to mid section
2 POINTS will be awarded for;
Foot attack directed to high section
Flying hand attack to high section (both feet must be off the ground)
Flying kick to mid section
5 POINTS will be awarded for;
Flying kick to high section

"and light contact is required to score."

It's like the differenece between all those different karate's.
[URL=http://www.itfaustralia.com.au/forms

Check out tonrament rules 2002.

Can you post a link to where you found the technically it doesn't have to make contact rules.


[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 11-26-2003).]

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 11-26-2003).]

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#120159 - 11/26/03 03:52 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
Anonymous
Unregistered


www.itf-information.com/information10c.htm

Article 37. FOULS
One point will be deducted for the following offences:
A. Loss of temper,
B. insulting an opponent in any way,
C. biting/scratching/clawing,
D. attacking with the knee, elbow or forehead,
E. attacking a fallen opponent,
F. contact.


Pay special attention to "f"

[This message has been edited by nekogami13 (edited 11-26-2003).]

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#120160 - 11/26/03 06:03 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
elleTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 236
Loc: USA
Kiwi,

I understand your frustration with people's conceptions about sparring. Obviously, you enjoy it very much and would like to see it respected, as would I. Sparring is more controlled, and sometimes less physical, than other martial arts. However, I doubt anyone on this forum could argue a good sparrer is lacking in skill. Sparring takes endurance, strength, skill, stamina, coordination, and quick reflexes. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL,

On several posts, you have complained about TKD having too many kicks. Now you have a problem that sparring, one application of TKD, has too many kicks. So, you expect a kicking art not to feature kicks in any of its excersises? Sparring is an excersise, not designed for real combat or street effectiveness. It is designed to develop timing, agility, comfort using combonations, strength, skill, and stamina. Maybe it isnt as rough&tough as some other arts, but who cares? I dont get the impression that you are a TKD practitioner, so why does sparring concern you?

Please, if your TKD history is different than i am assuming, correct me. Otherwise, I doubt your arguements will affect Kiwi or I.

Respectfully,
Elle

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#120161 - 11/26/03 09:04 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Thanks for the link nekogami, I didn't know some tornaments were run that way. However I have never seen a non-contact TKD tornament. Which leads me to believe that atleast in AUstralia and New ZEalnd they are not common.

Anyway, the main point is that I have proven that I'm not lying, as John implied. Or acting outside the rules. These are the rules in many point sparring competitions. I find the rules that nekogami and John posted baffling, how can you attack a downed opponent without making contact or is that two fouls. Is biting and scratching two fouls because you touched your opponent and scratched them. If you headbutt your opponet is that two fouls or just one.

Basicly you've looked up these rules and presumed that the way all point sparring competitions are run, you've presumed you know what TKD point comps are like without going to one.
http://www.itf-information.com/news02.htm

Scroll down throughb the pictures till you get to Leonhardt - Canada. This is from the same sight that you and John got your rules from, does this look like non contact?
http://www.itfnz.org.nz/events/tournaments/nats2002/photos/index.htm

again, look at these photos, does this look like no contact?
http://www.itfnz.org.nz/events/tournaments/worlds2003/pmpics/

The photos above are the ITF world champs. Scroll down to nine phots before the end. The pictures of the two woman fighting. DOes this look like no contact? Does this look like sparring overly reliant on feet?

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 11-27-2003).]

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 11-27-2003).]

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#120162 - 11/27/03 10:27 AM Re: Myths about point sparring
Rand Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 338
hey! i dont use a chest protecter when i fight!

of course i dont point spar

but thats not the point


not all Tae Kwon Do practitioners use all this fancy protective equipment and hop on one leg and leg fence


also i practice wtf "style" i guess you could call it atleast thats one aspect of my martial training


i dont understand this thing were everyone thinks that wtf is so much worse than other organizations

atleast in my school we go full contact in sparring and sometimes even work on more than one attacker scenarios in full contact sparring were the fighters can use any technique available to them

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#120163 - 11/27/03 02:10 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
Anonymous
Unregistered


The problem with tkd(as with any other Ma-karate, whatever) is the fact you cannot drive 1/2 a block without a tkd school.The majority of these schools are overly priced baby sitting services that have fooled people into believing they are learning to defend themselves when what they are really learning is to point spar.

I personaly have nothing against tkd.Like any MA, the quality of instruction and what you put into it determine what you get out of it.

Kiwi, you make sweeping statements about tkd sparring as if that is the way all tkd sparring is conducted.From what I have personaly observed, it simply is not true.
If your association/school spar that way-great! Sounds like a solid school.
Unfortunately I have witnessed sparring where the participants arms flopped uselessly down at their sides(this was called professional tkd).I had a friend in tkd-when they sparred no punches to head were allowed.

So when you call these myths, we see them as verifiable, personaly witnessed facts.

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#120164 - 11/27/03 02:17 PM Re: Myths about point sparring
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
I make sweeping statements about ITF TKD. No punches to the head is Olympic and WTF.

The rules i describe are used thoughout the majority of ITF organisations. Even the world chaps held by the orgainisation that displayed the rules John showed use contact sparring at the world champs.

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