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#119623 - 08/21/03 08:38 PM Olympic TKD
MikeTkD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 12
Loc: schenectady,ny,usa
ok ok i was just wondering cuz im just getting back into tkd but wut is olympic point sparring?? and if anyone knows wut are the rules for olympic sparring?

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#119624 - 08/22/03 07:22 AM Re: Olympic TKD
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
First rule: You must have NO actual combat ability whatsoever.

Second rule: You must be able to kick to the head continuously.

Third rule: You must look good while doing the above.

That's it.

Just kidding.

-Dan

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#119625 - 08/25/03 02:39 PM Re: Olympic TKD
Rand Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 338
i think you need to edit out the just kidding

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#119626 - 08/29/03 04:45 PM Re: Olympic TKD
smittenkittenTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 232
Loc: MI usa
i hate sparring.

Ender and Rand are right

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#119627 - 08/29/03 05:14 PM Re: Olympic TKD
NeinWunOne Offline
Member

Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Sparring is not for everyone.

Anyone who tries to tell you that being a black belt means that you're an awesome fighter smoking something. And anyone who says that only good sparrers "deserve a black belt" are probably asshats to begin with...

I know for a fact that about 10%-15% of the black belts in a given school actually spar in a tournament, so if you're a 1st Dan or above but feel that the local teenagers or beginners are running you to the ground in sparring, you are NOT alone.

It's a part of TKD, and certainly one of the more well-known activities for those outside of it, but it is not the heart of it and will vary from different schools.

I think because of the nature of the rules in WTF Olympic sparring, I'm convinced that it has a lot more to do with physical composition and physical endurance than devotion and focus in the art. I can name a few people in my dojang who are very talented in demostration in their form and technique, but will never be a competitive sparrer because of their physical attributes. That isn't a reason to NOT spar at all, but probably a reason to not do it competitively for those of us who are concerned about injuries against those who specialize in sparring to win.

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#119628 - 08/30/03 10:02 AM Re: Olympic TKD
smittenkittenTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 232
Loc: MI usa
i agree again, good post

i hate sparring for the fact that it draws attention from equally or even more important aspects of TKD. people think if you dont fight, you are not a good competitor. I dont hate it because im bad at it or i envy good fighters, because ill readily admit sparring is my weak point and i hold respect for good fighters. I just think most TKD enthusiasts are under the impression that sparring is the whole purpose of TKD.

Kitten

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#119629 - 08/30/03 02:40 PM Re: Olympic TKD
Rand Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 338
i spar but not olympic rules

i spar full contact both in class and at home

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#119630 - 08/30/03 06:31 PM Re: Olympic TKD
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Physical make up has a lot to do with how well you sparr, especially in tornaments. I had a 4 ft 10 black belt ask me what were some good techniques to use, in tornament sparring. It was just in general conversation, and I wasn't thinking about it seriously, so I showed her a couple of my favorite techniques. When she tried them out on me, they simply wouldn't work, because of the difference in height and physical make up.

Having said that, physical make up, might get you to a national championship (if you are very lucky, and still train reasonably hard). But the competitors at the wrld champs train extremely hard. The korean team starts training right after the world champs, and trains all the way though to the next one. I'm talking 4-8 hours a day. These people deserve a little respect dont you think?

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#119631 - 08/30/03 09:12 PM Re: Olympic TKD
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
As competitors? Sure!

As fighters? Nope.

Nuff said.

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#119632 - 08/30/03 09:44 PM Re: Olympic TKD
Rand Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 338
for training as hard as they do yes

and i would not under estimate them

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#119633 - 08/31/03 06:12 AM Re: Olympic TKD
Anonymous
Unregistered


Competition fighting and "real" fighting are two totally different skills. Both require hard training and commitment from the student.

It is a matter of choice for each individual. I used to compete (at local level, very small time) but now I prefer more "realistic" training.

I think as long as those competing and winning trophies realise that this does not make them necessarily brilliant at defending themselves when the doo doo hits the fan, let them enjoy their sport and any accolades they deserve.

BTW, is anyone going to answer MikeTkD's question? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Sharon

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#119634 - 08/31/03 11:51 AM Re: Olympic TKD
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ender:
As competitors? Sure!

As fighters? Nope.

Nuff said.
[/QUOTE]

Ender just because someone is exceptionally good at point sparring doesn't make them great fighter, but it also doesn't automatically make them poor ones either.

Big Bear

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#119635 - 08/31/03 02:00 PM Re: Olympic TKD
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Agreed. I apologize and retract my previous statement on the basis of "Poor choice or wording".

I agree Big Bear.

Also, your right, they do train just as hard, and I am sorry for putting them down.

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#119636 - 08/31/03 04:29 PM Re: Olympic TKD
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
No probs Ender, I'd back a NHB fighter over a point stop fighter myself but we cant rule out exceptions.

Big Bear

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#119637 - 09/01/03 11:12 AM Re: Olympic TKD
smittenkittenTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 232
Loc: MI usa
Olympic Sparring Rules of Competition

All colored belt matches shall each consist of two rounds of 90 seconds (Black belt 120 seconds), with a thirty (30) second rest in between rounds.

Safety Equipment

All contestants shall wear approved trunk protector, head protector, groin guard, forearm protector, shin-instep protector, and a mouth protector. Jewelry is to be removed and finger and toenails are to be neatly trimmed. Eye glasses are not permitted.

Legal Techniques (Duk-jeom)

One (1) point shall be awarded for each closed fist or kicking technique delivered accurately and with sufficient power to the colored mid-section area and sides of the torso protector, in the absence of any violations. Authorized scoring implements are the forefist and any part of the foot below the ankle.

Points shall be awarded for each kicking technique delivered to the front or side of the head forward of the ears, including the face down to the collarbone. Under A.A.U. and U.S.T.U. sanctioned tournaments, one (1) point is awarded for legal strikes to the trunk protector, with two (2) points being awarded for legal kicks to the head. One (1) additional "bonus" point will be awarded for legal techniques which result in a knockdown requiring an 8-count by the Referee. No punching to the head is allowed.

Fist and foot contact is permitted to the upper non-colored chest area of the torso protector, but is not scored unless the opponent is legitimately "knocked down" (any part of the body other than the foot touches the ground) as a result of the impact of the strike. Foot sweeps and throws are not allowed.


PROHIBITED ACTS

Warnings (Kyong-go) -1 Point for every 2 warnings


Interference with the progress of the match

1. Crossing the Boundary Line.
2. Falling down.
3. Evading by turning the back to the opponent.


Undesirable Acts

4. Grabbing the opponent.
5. Holding the opponent.
6. Touching the opponent with the hand or the trunk.
7. Pretending injury.
8. Butting or attacking with knee.
9. Attacking the groin.
10. Stomping or kicking any part of the leg or foot.
11. Hitting the opponent's face with hand or fist.
12. Kicking directly to opponent's spine or back of the head.
13. Interrupting the progress of the match on the part of the contestant or coach.
14. Avoiding the match.


Deductions (Gam-jeom) -1 Point


Interference with the progress of the match

1. Throwing down the opponent by grappling the opponent's attacking foot in the air with the arm or by pushing the opponent with the hand.
2. Intentionally attacking the fallen opponent after declaration of "Kal-yeo" (break).
3. Intentionally attacking the opponent's face with fist.


Undesirable Acts

4. Temporary suspension of the match due to violent remarks or behaviors on the part of the contestant or coach.


DISQUALIFICATION

1. Total of 3 minus points.

2. Competitor or coach intentionally disobeys the referee or the competition rules.

3. An intentional, illegal strike to an opponent which results in rendering him or her unable to continue the match.

4. *An excessive kick to a Junior's head which results in abrasion or bleeding.


__________________________________

*Junior Rules regarding contact to the Head:


U.S.T.U. (U.S. Taekwondo Union) Junior rules state that no contact to the head is allowed for ages 11 and under. Light, controlled contact is allowed to the facial area for non-black belt levels age 12-17. Sr. rules apply to all Belt levels age 18 and over, and all Black belts age 12 and over.

A.A.U. (Amateur Athletic Union) Jr. Rules state only light, controlled contact to the facial area is allowed for all non-blackbelt levels under the age of 18. Sr. Rules will apply to all Belt levels age 18 and over, and all Black belts age 14 and over.

NOTE: Inability of lack of desire to continue the match due to a legal techinique is not grounds for the disqualification of an opponent.

__________________________________


The winner is determined by superior point totals of successful hits (solid contact) using hands and feet.

One referee, three corner judges, and a juror make the decision and control the competition. The three corner judges keep the score and the juror decides the winner after confirmation of the referee's declaration of warnings, deduction of points, and the judges' score cards. Valid scores are the scored points recognized by the majority of the judges.

In the case of a tie, the referee decides the winner. The determination of the winner is made by the rules of superiority as follows:

1. Deuk-jeom (points scored)
2. Gam-jeom (penalties awarded)
3. The competitor who scored double or triple points by one valid attack.
4. The competitor who has shown the initiative through:

a. Technical dominance of an opponent
through aggressive match management.
b. The greater number of techniques executed.
c. The use of the more advanced techniques,
both in difficulty and complexity.
d. Display of the better competition manner.

Penalties and prohibited acts are declared by the referee. In the case of multiple penalties being committed simultaneously, the heavier penalty is declared. Penalties are divided into Kyong-go (warning penalty) and Gam-jeom (deduction penalty). Two Kyong-go are counted as a deduction of one
(-1) point. However, the last odd Kyong-go is not counted in the grand total. A Gam-jeom is counted as a minus one (-1) point. All Gam-jeom are counted in the grand total.


Ive judged. Hope this helps!

Kitten

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#119638 - 11/02/05 09:52 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: Rand]
moosulman Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 57
I think that you are all wrong.

Simply put.

Sparring helps develop combat technique. There's a lot of anti TKD bashing going around. Don't buy into it just because other people do.

It really [censored] me off to see people jump on the bandwagon with no real knowledge whatsoever.
_________________________
"The enemy knows me. I must become another me, one the enemy does not know. - Admiral Yi Soon Shin

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#119639 - 11/02/05 10:31 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: moosulman]
h2whoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
Quote:

I think that you are all wrong.

Simply put.

Sparring helps develop combat technique. There's a lot of anti TKD bashing going around. Don't buy into it just because other people do.

It really [censored] me off to see people jump on the bandwagon with no real knowledge whatsoever.




Hey calm down dude!

I think one of the greatest TKD sports fighters is tom seabourne (Two-time national heavyweight tae kwon do champion. Runner-up in the World Taekwondo Championships. Two-time North American and Pan American Champion. •Two-time All American Athlete. ESPN PKA Full Contact Champion. Chairman of the 1998 USTU National Taekwondo Injury Prevention Committee.)

He didnt win all the time but he was tactical and graceful and a joy to watch!!

You can see him here:

http://www.betterbodz.com/Tom/tom_seabourne.html

I use his fitness books as a skeleton for my workout program!!

*bows respectfully*
_________________________
No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!

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#119640 - 11/02/05 10:56 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: MikeTkD]
whitetiger Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 40
In light of all the anti-TKD bashing and comments made on this particular post, I must say that I have all the confidence in the world in my TKD abillites and I'm sorry, but TKD WILL work effectively against other sparring styles and is NOT just effective against other TKD practitioners. I guess some people do know everything there is to know about TKD. It seems that I could quit my class now and save money by learning from people who know everything about the subject of TKD "effectiveness".

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#119641 - 11/02/05 11:08 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: whitetiger]
moosulman Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 57
Very well put, whitetiger
_________________________
"The enemy knows me. I must become another me, one the enemy does not know. - Admiral Yi Soon Shin

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#119642 - 11/02/05 11:16 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: moosulman]
whitetiger Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 40
Thank you moosulman. I was smitten with sarcasm at a young age, you may have to look beyond that when I post sometimes.

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#119643 - 11/02/05 11:55 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: Rand]
StormDOA Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 142
Loc: Lansing, Mich., USA
I agree with rand entirely, although just because you are in good shape as a tournament fighter certainly does not mean you are a tough self defense or combat fighter, it sure is an indicator of ability. Frankly I am just so tired of people ranting on and on about TKD's effectiveness I that I oftentimes think about not posting at all. Martial arts are like religion, it depends entirelyon the institution and your own interpretation of it. It is the man that makes the art not the art that makes the man.

This used to be a really good place to get advice and share information, latelyit seems like it is just a chance to boast, put down and talk ligght trash. Too bad really, takes to real enjoyment and use out of the forum often.
_________________________
Stand True

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#119644 - 11/03/05 12:38 AM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: StormDOA]
moosulman Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 57
No one here is ranting about TKD effectiveness. But people here such as myself and whitetiger are trying to defend it. Yeah, you'r right. The man makes the art. You pointed out that there seems to be too much of these effectiveness talks going around. People like whitetiger and myself are just trying to combat ignorance.
_________________________
"The enemy knows me. I must become another me, one the enemy does not know. - Admiral Yi Soon Shin

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#119645 - 11/03/05 01:08 AM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: Rand]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
When you say spar are you talking about freesparring or sparring under competition rules?

Surely the 'point' of Tae Kwon Do is improving your ability to fight but how do you expect to get better at fighting without sparring?

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#119646 - 11/03/05 03:02 AM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: Subedei]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
What narks me is "competition" techniques which are designed to get points but are just plain gamesmanship and, to my mind, dishonourable.

I saw one guy pull the old trick of running in and slapping himself (to make the noise) and then raising his arms and making out he'd scored a point. Of course the refs haven't seen it and give it. I'd love to see him do that in a real fight and find that the other guy just lamps him one in the chops!

Another funny scene is the guy who chases the other all around the mat doing loads of wonderful techniques and kihaps (although never touching the opponent)and finishing in a great stance and a loud "Haaaaah!"... answer, a backfist to the head by opponent. POINT!

Sooo funny!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#119647 - 11/03/05 12:13 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: trevek]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Without sparring, you're just pretending at fighting. No amount of drills make up for being in the thick of it against a creative, thinking human being. People can be incredibly tricky and crafty and unless you spar them for real you'll never understand how fighting really works. (Barring the exception of where you go out and pick fights or have been forced into a self defense situation. The first is stupid and the second is risky because it's your life on the line. Sparring is better than both of these)

Unfortunately, the less rules there are when you are sparring the better prepared you will be and TKD has too many rules imho. That's all that needs to change in TKD sparring I think. Keep it full contact.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#119648 - 11/03/05 12:28 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: Leo_E_49]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Holy crap!! This thread is over two years old!!!!

Olympic sparring doesn't affect my training whatsoever. Who cares?
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#119649 - 11/03/05 04:22 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: SANCHIN31]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
My goodness! I didn't notice it was so old.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#119650 - 11/19/05 03:17 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: MikeTkD]
TaeKwonMiles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Cincinati, Ohio, United States
Point sparring is a type of sparring where after someone scores a point, you stop and go back and restart the fight instead of keep on fighting like kyrogui.

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#119651 - 12/24/05 06:39 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: MikeTkD]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
You should probably ignore most of those posts. They completely ignored the question and probably do not really have insight into modern tae kwon do.

Olypic style tae kwon do is the new modern version of tae kwon do, its about 40-50 years old now. It places great emphasis on kicking techniques, soo much so that new innovative techniques are now being used. The design and application of these new kicks allow for a more versitile for of kicking combinations. Kicks that include, small jumps and spins to achive greater speed and power from a more scientific point of view. The new kicks are now initiated from a smaller trajectile arc, different from the old style of kicks which came from a wide arc to increase its power. Although they had more power they were very much telgraphed. Unlike the new kicks.

Traditional tae kwon do which doesn't have to be part of the International Tae kwon do Federation (ITF), it can be known as korean karate. The emphasis is on self defense and poomse (form training). The style of open-trounament sparring they practice for is geared towards 3 point sparring. They compete against other forms of martial arts. While Olymipic tae kwon do only compete amongts other olympic tae kwon do schools who are under the banner of the World Tae kwon do Federation or some sub-organization.

The two styles have exactly the same hand techniques, but traditional ephasizes more self defense rather than sparring. The kicks are now completely different, there are even more kicks in moder tae kwon do due to the new sparrig system. More kicking combinations, faster pace. Modern tkd no longer places its confidence on the "One hit kill" japanese philosophy, they really more on kciking combinations. Its almost like looking at kenpo except tkd involves more feet rather than hands.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#119652 - 12/24/05 07:11 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: TeK9]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
i should point out the only reason sport tkd has lost its punching techniques is because a punch will only get you 1 point.
_________________________
Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

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#119653 - 12/24/05 07:18 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: funstick5000]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
NO kidding, and that's only if your lucky. now aways its not even worth throwing a punch in olympic style tkd. the only technique I train for is when I block a round house with my lead hand and simaltaniously punch with my rear hand. This blocks a kick and stuns the attacker just enough so I can land a rear leg kick to actually score. thats 3 techniques done right there, to get 1 point. Although the punch should be counted it often isn't. Gotta love it. ^^

"Do or do not...there is no try" -Yoda
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#119654 - 02/12/06 09:19 AM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I should clarify more about the above technique I use for competition.
This technique is used when in closed fighting stance. The attacker throws a rear leg round kick, which I can already anticipate. A good fighter can anticipate his attackers attacks so that he can counter accordingly. You have to learn how to read your opponents, this can only be down through actual sparring practice.

But I dont just wait for the attacker to kick and then I just block. What I do is, I scoot in and block his kicking leg near the inner thigh area. I don't wait for him to extend his leg. This block is meant not to block the kick but to nullify the attack altogether.

Immediatly after I down block his inner thigh, I follow through with a reverse punch which should score a point. If not, I can continue my attack with a rear leg round kick to face or chest.

Tip: There is a secret to this technique. When you block the leg, you can secretly maintain or hold it (trap it) in place for a few moments, this keeps the opponent off balance which allows you to follow up with a kick to either the chest or the face.

This is the only technique I can think of where a down block is used in competition to set up a punch to score. In a self defense situation this down block would really be an attack to the inner thigh, it can cause a nice bit of damage on the attacker. Durrin tournament it is forbidden to attack a limb, however, with this technique you can get away with it. Once you have the leg blocked you can secretly open your hands into a knife block and slightly maintain the kicking leg trapped for a moment to off balance your opponent, leaving you an oppertunity to score. If your bold enough to take it. I know my students are. How about you?

I decided to revive this thread, it has some nice diverse opinions about sparring and it's purpose. But mainly I just liked what I posted. LOL

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#119655 - 02/12/06 05:42 PM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: TeK9]
jamestkdkungfu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 113
as for SD effectiveness try kicking them in the legs instead of midsection with all taekwondo kicks and if they turn slightly away and you can kick them in the head give 'er I dont see why not but i have found it amusing when a guy i knew tried to use it on this guy he was thrown on his ass so fast i found it to be most funny he thought he was fast enough...

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#119656 - 02/13/06 02:10 AM Re: Olympic TKD [Re: MikeTkD]
dicen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 57
Olypic point sparring is when two people enter a ring and fight conituously for three, three mintute rounds. Someone post the rules in an earlier post. The object is to score a point with a kick to the body, or to the head.

Punches are not allowed to the head and are rarely counted as a point. The general rule is if it moves the opponent then its a point. If you fall down when doing your technique it will not be counted but thats a little iffy. I've seen fighters gain points when they did a double kick and fell on thier behinds.

On a side note......

Just a question but from all the posts I have read, you all think a tkd black belt who competes in sparring competitions doesn't know the difference between self defense and sparring. I mean one of the first rules I learned was never turn your back on your opponent. Yet in sparring there are dozens of spinning kicks. I mean when you are a white belt you learn 4 basic blocks, then when you grow as a student you learn the uses of a palm block. Even in modern TKD you have some fundamentals that stick with you even if you do train more for competition. Its ridiculous to read all these posts about "just because you are an excellent competition fighter you are not good at self defense"

Remember sparring, self defense, and fighting are 3 different things. Sparring is supposed to be the practice against a living opponent, self defense is a counter attack used in the first physical encounter of a fight. If you do not end the fight in that first encounter, then it becomes fighting in which case all those techniques fly out the window cause now the other person knows what he's up against.

Remember we practice martial arts, not actual fighting. If you want to learn how to fight I suggest you join the military.

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