I think rank should always be decided on proficiency, not age or duration of study. I see some kids in my dojang at red belt level, and they can't even stand in a front stance. If you have the technique to advance at a young age, more power to you, but you should test everyone with the same criteria.

I think the real issue here is, as usual, money. The instructors only let younger, less proficient students advance in rank because the parents need to see that they are benefiting from the expensive class. If a child remained a white belt until he actually deserved a yellow belt, the parents would think he was not learning anything and take the child to an instructor more willing to promote. This gains a monopoly for the less traditional instructor, thus all instructors do it to keep up.

Colly,
I know where you are coming from when you say that if a child does not advance the child often leaves.
However, not ALL instructors grade children before they should just to keep them. I have lost many many before their first grading.
I prefer to lose them sooner rather than later if they or their parents have this attitude. But then I do not run my classes as a business. Those that do have many expenses to cover and gradings help with this.
Sharon

Ok Sharon, but do you test the children as strictly as you test the adults? I think all instructors are more lenient. This facilitates children holding ranks they don't deserve.

Colly,
obviously, less is expected of younger people than adults. They will have less understanding and if very young, less control of their bodies. This is why if a person attains junior black belt before 16, they must take an adult dan grading between 16 and 18 or revert to 1st kyu in our association.
I never grade my own students, even at a low grade to ensure standards remain as they should be.
I held my own daughter at blue belt (5th kyu in our system) for over nine months because she was physically incapable, due to age, of performing some of our syllabus for the next grade. Once I considered her ready, she was graded by independent instructors.
I know exactly what you are talking about, I have seen it many times. But honestly, there are instructors that do not grade students purely on the basis of how long they have been training.
Sharon

i think children and adults should NOT learn the same thing.
children are taught to use things differently than adults.

Since the master at our dojang conducts all testing, he would usually not allow adults or children to test unless he feels they're ready.

Each rank has a laundry list of things to do in order for a promotion to take place. We do tell parents up front when they sign their children up that we will adhere to pre-determined standards, and if the child does not meet those standards, then they will re-test next month, and keep re-testing until they meet them. One of the things is that we try to inform the parents that they're not necessarily paying for rank, but rather they're paying for improvement of technique and understanding of the entire art as a whole.

One of the things I like about my sabuhnim is that he personally calls the children's parents once a month to open a line of communication. They can discuss the child's progress, what their strengths, areas of weakness, etc. as well as keep tabs if they're doing well in school, at home, etc. If you involve parents in the entire process, then they are less likely to distance themselves from this entire process and are less likely to withdraw their children from your dojang if they fail an examination or if they are "held back".

I know of a few parents that even express holding back their child because they don't think they're as good as they want them to be, but most will defer that decision to our sabuhnim as he'll be very honest about whether a child or an adult should test.

I agree kempo-jitsu. The more dangerous techniques such as strangles/chokes etc should definitely not be taught to children.

Nor should several other things for safety reasons or because their bodies are still developing.

I think most instructors are aware of these differences.
Sharon

Agreed as well.

Kid's do not need to learn the same things that adults learn as they're growing up mentally and physically.

There are some young teenagers who do mature very early on, and if they show exemplinary discipline and maturity, then we simply suggest to them to attend the adult classes. That way, you keep both class material seperate.

Can i ask a very naive question to the instructors out there who teach a different syallabus to the children in their class?

I've only been invloved in the MA's for over a year (although i was a grandmaster when it came to armchair style) so i'm not entirely sure about the process.

Anyway back to my naive question-if a junior reaches black belt at 16/17, and then has to regrade for their senior blackbelt, what way does that work? i mean if they are too young to be taught various techniques due to them still growing etc. do they have to learn the entire senior syllabus for their senior grading?

I know how naive this question sounds but its one of those things that constantly eat away at your mind kind of questions (in my case anyway).

Big Bear

Hi Big bear,
Your question does not sound naieve at all.

Juniors (that is, under 16s) do the same syllabus as the adults except dangerous techniques such as chokes and strangles for obvious reasons. Different instructors have different opinions on what age to teach these, and sometimes it does depend on the young person concerned.
The reasoning behind re-taking the grade at adult level (after 16th birthday but before 18th) is that an adult is expected to have and demonstrate more understanding of what they are doing and why. They are expected to have more physical strength, more endurance and be able to cope with more physical contact in sparring. If the syllabus contains techniques not suitable for children, they learn these when old enough before they re-grade.I personally think the age for adult dan grade should be 18 not 16 but it is not my decision.

If a child is tested for black belt at 14 or 15 years old, they can not possibly be expected to perform in the same way as an adult.

There are many schools of thought on this. Some associations will not award dan grades to children at all and some will have children grading to second or third dan, and continue grading as they enter adulthood without re-taking the first dan. I personally think the age for adult dan grade should be 18 not 16 but it is not my decision.

I also think allowing juniors to dan grade if they want to and re-testing for adult dan grade is the best system, although I suspect that some associations do this so that they can collect two grading fees from one person.
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 08-28-2003).]