Joe

"Could not physically challenge a 40 year old when I was 14-BS."

Could you be more specfic?

Exactly how could a 14 year old kid "physically challenge" a 40 year old man.

A 14 year old boy has no-where the muscular strength, body mass etc of a full grown man.

I have seen some pretty out of shape 40 year olds (as well as plenty of 14-35 year olds)

Is that what you mean??

Is it always about muscle? I'll talke from experience.

While growing up in the arts (I was about mid 20's at the time) I got to train with a kid that was indeed 14. He became one of my best sparring partners. He is also a multi-time national champion and athelete of the year.

It isn't the sport
It isn't the age.
It is the person.

You want to bring up "how much muscle a 14 year old can have..."

Two words.

Mark Henry.

How old was Tyson when he was beating everyone's ass in the Ama?

Some people are good...no matter what the age.

Uriel

Deep breath man.

Sorry, but the exception only proves the rule.

We have to deal with avgs here.

Like the avg college football team can stomp the avg high school team.

The avg college wrestler can crush the avg high school wrestler.

The avg 20 year old boxer should be able to KO the avg 14 year old.

Age and exerience, and yes size and muscle mass, count big--if you thik otherwise then explain to me why they have weight classes in ADULT boxering, wrestling, etc.

Ah, dude because all other things being EQUAL (and how often does THAT really happen?) a small person is at a signifcant dis-advantage vs the larger person.

That may not ALWAYS be the case--but thats the way to bet.

i have to ask the question: WHO CARES ABOUT BELTS AND GRADING ???

isn't training about personal ability and practicality ? i personally think that grading and belts are a disgrace to the spirit of martial arts. its a method of popularizing and institutionalizing a skill set which, by nature, can only be judged or truly 'graded' by its effectiveness against an opponent. while i support the growth of martial arts around the world, one needs to put the grading and belt system in perspective. the unfortunate truth is that the current integrity of a black belt is severely diminished. whether you admit it or not, the assembly line black belt production over the past decades has resulted in a system which only truly means anything once it can be validated on an individual basis and hence, the entire existence of belts and grading becomes a contradiction in nature.

i see gyms and even the WMTC attempting to create a grading system for muay thai in order to facilitate growth in the art and sport. this misguided effort can only result in a similar situation faced by graded martial today. in my opinion, the only real test of martial arts ability is ones ability to fight or at least spar hard and full contact. while i understand that some people need a motivation/ goal such as grading, we should always keep this system and its merit under tight scrutiny.


[This message has been edited by 1st Round KO (edited 06-01-2004).]

I've been enjoying reading your debate, and wanted to delurk to post my two cents, for what they're worth from a novice (training four months, yellow belt).

As a general issue, not just in MA, I think teens, even preteens can be a lot more mature, more "grown up" than many adults. I recall my own teen years, being very mature and driven, and how frustrating it was being patronized by judgemental adults. Sure, most 15 year olds are dumb goofs, but so are most 50 year olds. Furthermore, kids and teens are perhaps better able to learn new sports, skills, languages than adults.

That said, one of my early teachers was in his late teens, I don't know what grade of black belt, and while he was an incredibly compitent Martial Artist he was an abysmal teacher. He didn't have the patience for beginners like me, especially older, female and foreign, and did more showing off than teaching. I almost quit TKD because of him, ultimately changed schools.

Arrogance is a pitfall of youth, especially if you are very, very good at something. Not to say young people can't be friendly and encouraging and patient. But there is also a competitiveness, a need to prove oneself, that contradicts the selflessness needed to teach well.

Shang

You still have to go by avgs here.

Sure you CAN find a 50 year old that is more immature than a 15 year old.

But chances are it would be easier to find an immature 15 year old.

As mentioned prior, speaking personally, I was no-where near as good at 15-16 as I thought I was.

I suspect that that the folks argueing on the side of the 13-15 year old crowd--if they keep training--will have a very different perspective on the question when they hit 25-35 +.

There is a bottom line to this whole argument: at earlier ages you're just too immature to really take the art seriously. I happen to know a black belt who is only 10 years old, but she went out of her way one day to insist that the piece of cloth around her waist was her golden scepter to lord over me. Metaphors aside, I sparred her and showed her what she really lacked: the maturity and humility that a black belt possesses, and im not even a black belt yet. When kids are given a black belt they immediately gain an ego boost that crushes their humility and respect for other students, kind of like those 1337 dorks in online games. Students get their real black belt when they fully demonstrate the humility and respect as well as the knowledge and insight of the martial arts. McDojo's, for this reason, are worthless places to learn. You get nothing but nice moves, a black cloth around your waist, and an ego too big to fit into the overhead compartments of an airliner. There's none of the teaching of discipline and self-control.

rant aside, children always lack one thing that all adults have: life experience. The simple truth is they've been around the block a few more times than you. They have other knowledge that can bring to the art, and are more aware of things like their emotions and the way their bodies work in combat. A child is determined, yes, but more than half the time that's about it. Adults simply have more experience to draw upon than children, and this is why they deserve the real black belt. What you CAN do means nothing, but what you HAVE done is worth much more. Experience is the heart of the matter.

I ran across a situation that now seems appropriate to bring up. A school that I attended had a couple of black belts who were younger. I did not know their age, and assumed they were older than they were. One in particular was a little bigger than me, and I figured to be 16-19. He was twelve! In sparring, nobody held back and he held his own toe to toe against adults. His demeanor was young, but not THAT young. I look back and feel that he fully earned the respect that a black belt is due, but if an emergency situation came up, he was not experienced to handle it. I would not have gone against him as hard as I did if I had any idea that he was that much underage.

Argh. This annoys me so much. (Partially cause JohnL annoys me)
None of you have ever seen Kiwi train or teach or compete. You have no idea of the skill or understanding he has and to assume, purely on his age, that he cannot teach is just plain ignorant. You are also making assumptions about where he learned which again is silly because none of you have any idea about what his dojo is like.
A 15 year old cannot teach people to drive, not because its unsafe or because he'll endanger people but because someone somewhere had to decide the law, and made the assumption that people at that age aren't mature enough- which just isn't true. The maturity of people I know varies immmensley.
I think a younger asrtist can easily be as good if not a better teacher than an older one. A younger teacher can more easily relate to younger students- for those who are uncomfortable with his age there is his chief instructor-again silly-I know I would want to be taught by the more experienced one of the two.
To make assumptions on past experienced or incorrect and unfounded beliefs is wrong, and stereotyping- the fact is none of you should say whether or not he should be a teacher becuase none of oyu know him.
What is the point of having someone who has the same knowledge, understanding, skill as an older artist and then holding them back just because they aren't old enough yet-sounds like jealousy to me..

Well gee, it really ticks ME off when I see little kids claiming they're better than people who are older, wiser, and all around better than them because of a little black belt. My own teacher has many times before made his own BB's remove their belts and wear a white belt during class for behaving disrespectfully. A real black belt would never have to do that, but apparently the conflict is between kids who think they know everything and people who know they don't. A black belt isn't just about talent. If that were the case then every school on earth would be a mcdojo.

-"What're you asking me for? I don't know @#$%!"
"But you're wise!"
"I'm wise enough to know that I don't know @#$%! Now go away!"