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#119423 - 08/18/03 02:03 AM Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
This is a topic i feel really strongly about as i have been on the recieving end of ageism since I got my black belt.

I got my black belt when I was ten. People thought (without even seeing me train) that I would fail because I was ten. I got the highest mark out of the twenty people who went.
When i hear people talking about junior black belts I am disgusted. How does your age determine your rank? Belittling something that a younger person has worked just as hard for as an older person, is to me a disgrace. Where I used to train woman were not asked to do proper pushups (they did them on their knees), they did not have to break as many boards as men, or perform the same breaks. Does this mean we should give them a womans black belt?

As a young instructor I face the same discrimination. People are intimidated by my age. I see it all the time, people do not consider my rank valid because of my age. I personally consider ageism to be as bad as racism and the people who are ageists as bad as racists.

before you slam junior balck belts consider for a second that some of thse younger people have worked just as hard for their black belts as you. I know it hurt you ego when you see a younger person walking around with a higher belt then you, but they have wroked harder then you and deserve it more then you.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-18-2003).]

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#119424 - 08/18/03 03:33 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi kiwi [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

First of all congratulations on achieving your black belt at such a young age.

I think the reason some people are negative about under 16s being awarded black belt is not out of envy or ego (although this may be true in some cases -who knows?)

I think the real reason is two-fold. Firstly most of us have come across "Mcdojos" where parents pour money into their children's training and in return get nothing more than production line gradings every few months at ridiculously high prices without actually properly learning their art (and this can happen to adults too).

Secondly, most martial artists agree that a child can not possibly have the same understanding of what they are doing as an adult does and can not be expected to be as responsible (not that all adults are responsible). For this reason in many arts children are not taught the full curriculum (no strangles/chokes etc.)

Some clubs get around this by not teaching children, some by training them but not allowing them to grade to black belt until 16.
In my association, children can take their junior black belt but have to re-test between 16 and 18 to demonstrate increased maturity and understanding. I personally think this is the best method.

I can not comment about women being treated differently as this does not happen either where I teach or where I train, but I allow any student who struggles with full pressups to start off doing them on their knees and this is, admittedly, usually the women and younger boys.
I do this because I feel more benenfit is derived from a press up from kneeling done properly than a full press up done badly or incorrectly.

Try not to let other people's predjudice upset you and don't enter into arguments about it. Prove you are worth your belt by the way you train and the way you conduct yourself in the dojo/dojang.

Most importantly, keep enjoying your training
Sharon

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#119425 - 08/18/03 05:00 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Thank you for your reply wadowoman

"In my association, children can take their junior black belt but have to re-test between 16 and 18 to demonstrate increased maturity and understanding. I personally think this is the best method."

I agree that people need to show maturity and understanding in order to get a black belt. However the 16-18 part is what i don't agree with. Everyone should be given an equal oppurtunity to get their black belt. A maturity and understanding test is a good idea. In my association you sit a one and a half hour written exam followed by a twenty minute interview with the examiner.

What I am trying to get at (maybe I used to strong a lanquage in my first post) is that age shouldn't determine what rank you get. If someone shows less then acceptable maturity for a black belt then it is allright to give them a junior black belt. However if a 8 year old shows the maturity and understanding of a 30 year old black belt he should get what he has earned.

I also agree with trying not to get upset by prejudice, however I believe that a forum is the ideal place to get into an argument. I can express my opinion, hear other experienced martial artists express theirs, and it is non personal and non confronational.

After reading your Mcdojo comments, I read the Mcdojo topic in this forum. It seems some people have just cause to be ageist. However do not paint all us younger people with the same brush. Remember those kids running around with the Mcdojo black belts, have earnt a mcdojo black belt. It may not be more then a pieace of black cloth around their wastes, but they earnt it as much as any adult with a mcdojo black belt.

Once again I thank you for your post wadowoman.

Taekwon

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#119426 - 08/18/03 09:39 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Kiwi

There have been a couple of notes on the subject of age and grades recently.

I note that you you got your black belt when you were ten and people would fail you because of that. Personally I would not fail you because of that but I would not have let you take any test.

If you assume it takes an average of 3-4 years to obtain shodan in a given number of styles, it means you started around 6 or so. In this case you were not being taught a MA but just being babysat and allowed to wear the funny pyjama's I mentioned in an earlier post on this subject.

You now say you are a young instructor, I don't know how old, but this goes back to one of SmittenKittens posts about teaching at a young age.
If you are under 21, it is unlikely that you have either the maturity or knowledge to begin teaching.

By all means enjoy the fun, but it's only when you're out of childhood that the MA's can be taken as a serious matter.

JohnL

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#119427 - 08/18/03 11:40 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Good point John.

There's an age requirement in my dojo for each rank. I believe shodan is probably around eighteen if not a little older, which in my opinion is a good thing. We have a seperate ranking system for our children and adult classes. I'm not exactly sure how they correlate, but I do know that we award colored belts to the kid's class whereas in the adult classes we have just white, brown, and black belts.


Joe

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#119428 - 08/19/03 01:22 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
John L

This is the sort of thing that really insults me. After working my ass off for 4 years to get my 1st degree and another four years to get my second degree I am told that all that training was just me mucking around in pajama's. If you are a black belt you know how much work you put into it. Now try having someone tell you that you didn't earn it. Why? because your black, female or too young. The fact is that your age does not determine your prowess as a martial artist, nor does your color or your sex.

I know that I am a better teacher then most of the people in my area. I see this when my students are tested. Alot of adult instructors have a hard time teaching kids. They don't realise that the reason why kids start is to have fun. Luckily because of childrens willingness to learn, I can also instill them with the maturity and understanding that goes with being a TKD practitioner.

I know that no one in my club has the same understanding of Taekwon-Do as I do. Some of my students may be forty, however in Taekown-Do they are only as old as the length of time they have spent training. In this sense I am the oldest in the club by over 2 years.

I want people to realise that giving someone a lesser belt solely based on their age is prejudice. Yes most ten year olds don't have the maturity to be a black belt, but some do, and their age should not determine their rank.

In my association if you pass your black belt, you have showed the maturity and understanding of Taekwon-Do that is required. In my association if you are a teacher you have shown the maturity and understanding that is required to be a teacher.

Thankyou
Taekown



[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-19-2003).]

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#119429 - 08/19/03 03:25 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kiwi,
whilst I have respect for many of John's opinions, we generally agree to disagree on the subject of children training.
I do teach children and have a few coming up to black belt myself. I think they are great and I am very proud of them.
However I do agree with him about children instructing.
Are you under 18? if so are you supervised whilst teaching?
If by teaching you mean helping the instructor with beginners occasionally (which my students often do) that is one thing, but it seems common practice in some dojos for children to run classes, and I do think that is wrong.
Sorry
Sharon

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#119430 - 08/19/03 08:03 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Kiwi
When I wrote my post I was concerned that it might upset you (very unlike me) as I didn't want to dampen your enthusiasm for what you do. However I stand by my opinion.

A couple of things you mention in your post are worthy of note though.

"After working my ass off for 4 years to get my 1st degree and another four years to get my second degree I am told that all that training was just me mucking around in pajama's."

I stand by what I said. If you trained from the age of 6-10 and obtained a blackbelt, great. It means something to you. I have no gripes with you doing it, just with your instructors. As a Martial Artist it insults me that someone who is supposed to know what they are doing in the MA's, after all they're instructing, give out blackbelts to children who then claim some expertise in the MA's.

"Now try having someone tell you that you didn't earn it. Why? because your black, female or too young. The fact is that your age does not determine your prowess as a martial artist, nor does your color or your sex."

I believe you're confusing situations. I do not discriminate against people on the basis of race or sex. Also, once children have matured enough to become adults, I do not treat them any differently be they 21 or 80.

If you are bright as a youth, it is wholly possible that you might pass all the exams to become an airline pilot, you might even pass the practical flight training. Would I then let a 12 year old fly a commercial aircraft. Absolutely not. You do not have the maturity level needed to undertake the task. I believe the same is true in MA's.

"I know that no one in my club has the same understanding of Taekwon-Do as I do. Some of my students may be forty, however in Taekown-Do they are only as old as the length of time they have spent training. In this sense I am the oldest in the club by over 2 years."

It sounds as if your club, like you, are very young. In terms of experience (for what I consider to be an experienced Martial Artist) 2 years is nothing.

"I want people to realise that giving someone a lesser belt solely based on their age is prejudice."

It isn't predudice, it's recognising that age is a factor.

"Yes most ten year olds don't have the maturity to be a black belt, but some do, and their age should not determine their rank."

If blackbelts are given as a standard regardless of age, no 10 year old should be wearing one.

"In my association if you pass your black belt, you have showed the maturity and understanding of Taekwon-Do that is required."

If they consider you an adult black belt, then their standards must be amazingly low.

"In my association if you are a teacher you have shown the maturity and understanding that is required to be a teacher."

Teaching is a whole other ball game. Please read my other posts on this subject with Smittenkitten. (Which university did you obtain your degree from, where did you do your MA, where are your teaching qualifications, how as a minor are you insured.)

I'm sorry if these comments sound patronising, they're not meant to be, but passing off 10 year olds as Martial Artists is irresponsible at best.

JohnL

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#119431 - 08/19/03 05:57 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i think a junior black belt, is just that a JUNIOR black belt.
they passed the "childrens" requirements, to achieve a black belt, so they earned it, and should be allowed to keep their JUNIOR black belt, as for what happens when they become old enough to join the adult class, then they should be tested to see where they would start with the adult curriculum, or a specific starting point should be outlined. if there is no difference in curriculums then i would say there is a major problem.
what children learn, and what adults learn are two very different things!! or should be!!
speaking of org's...which one are you with? ATA, WTF, ITF etc??
i was in the ATA, i hated it, everyone has the know how, but no understanding it seems except for the "masters", its a sport, you learn a form (no applications of the movements) do your one steps, and get a belt, learn a form, get a belt, learn a form, get a belt, learn a form, break a board and get a belt..etc etc. i even did the form wrong once at a test and passed and was never corrected on the form.
for an understanding, philosophically, and for real self defense, effort, maturity/wisdom (which only comes with age), patience, and TIME is required, not just money and the fact that you memorized a form.
when i was in the ATA there was very little history (and even then it was wrong), no philosophy, and no realistic self defense (although they thought it was)adults and children were taught the exact same curriculum etc.
some arts/organizations just arent geared for what i consider real martial arts, either part, the art, or the martial aspects.
my teacher used to have me teach the class kempo jujutsu techniques for self defense.
in kempo jujutsu children are taught many of the same techniques as adults, but what they are taught to do with them is TOTALLY different.
sorry for the ATA rant [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
i guess it boils down to goals, some arts/org's arent oriented for MARTIAL arts, but sports. personally i think martial arts should be about protecting yourself, not just winning a trophy, or breaking a pine board. and the sport arts, should be called sports, not martial arts (just my opinion)
no offense intended, but i think you are a junior black belt, and should retest for the adult curriculum to see where you stand, as for instructor, maybe you should teach other junior ranks, and children. just my opinion.

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#119432 - 08/19/03 06:03 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i also think that another problem down the road will be...seeing an 8th degree black belt that is only 20 yrs of age????
maybe martial arts really shouldnt have ranks if this is the case.

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#119433 - 08/20/03 12:17 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
John L, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree as far as the youth thing goes. I have sent 2 posts disagreeing with you and you have sent two posts disagreeing with me.

You know by now what my opinion is on this subject and it hasn't changed.


"It sounds as if your club, like you, are very young. In terms of experience (for what I consider to be an experienced Martial Artist) 2 years is nothing."

Well we finally have found something we can agree on. Two years of training definately does not constitute an experienced martial artist. I have been doing Taekwon-Do for nine years which I believe is long enough to become an instructor of color belts. Some people in my club are forty plus and have been doing it for six to seven years. Hence nine minus seven equals two [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].

I do ITF Taekwon-Do my grading was conducted over three days. It involved testing on everything from fitness to theory.

We have the highest standard (as far as technique goes, WTF and Olympic can claim that they are better at sport sparring) then any other organisation. People do not give black belts out easily. Out of the class of thirty kids, I was the only one who made it up to black belt. I was also the youngest person to ever test and until a while ago the youngest black belt in New Zealand (in my organistaion).

I was given a senior black belt and had to do evrything a senior had to do (except the forefist punch was changed to knifehand due to my hand still developing). To anyone who tries to use this as part of their argument. Woman did not have to perform a forefist punch either, and people over fifty did not have to perform jumping techniques. These allowances were made because my organisaton believes in passing people based on their knowledge and technique, not their willingness to destroy their body for black belt. For my second degree I performed a forefist punch, and it has permanently damaged my hand.

In my organisation you will never see an eighth degree black belt at twenty because...

For second degree you have to wait 18 months.

For third you have to wait two years

and for the rest you have to wait even longer.

Also at sixth you are not graded but promoted. This only happens when ITF believes you have done enough for Taekwon-Do to deserve the title of master.

I think the youngest eight degree is about forty something. He is also the son of the founder (General Choi Hong Hi).



[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-20-2003).]

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#119434 - 08/20/03 08:20 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Kiwi

I guess so, but there is still the isssue of you teaching.

You say you have been doing TKD for 9 years, if you started at 6 that now makes you 15 or so.

As in my previous response and previos posts with Smitten kitten, what on earth makes you think you're qualified to teach.

Where did you get your degree, your MA, your teaching qualifications. Assuming you teach children also, where did you study child phsycology. How are you insured? at 15, you will not be covered under a general policy.

As with SK I'm not having a go at you, but your instructor. If he doesn't want to teach, don't run a club. Tell him to stop using you as slave labor for something that you are wholly unqualified to do and do his job.

JohnL


[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 08-20-2003).]

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#119435 - 08/20/03 07:04 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
do you teach at your teachers school? or do you have your own school?
i guess its ok that you teach (not that i have any right to judge) i agree to an extent that age shouldnt be a boundary, but you have to draw the line somewhere you know.
"the proof is in the pudding" (thanks chris)
if you can actually use your skills, and can show the level of maturity, skill, patience, ettiquite, and TEACHING ABILITY (a whole other ballpark) then i would have no arguments with you teaching, but i would say you should probably be teaching (for the time being) under your teachers supervision.
at any rate...keep up the good work.

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#119436 - 08/20/03 08:18 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
StormDOA Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 142
Loc: Lansing, Mich., USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Hi kiwi [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

First of all congratulations on achieving your black belt at such a young age.

I think the reason some people are negative about under 16s being awarded black belt is not out of envy or ego (although this may be true in some cases -who knows?)

I think the real reason is two-fold. Firstly most of us have come across "Mcdojos" where parents pour money into their children's training and in return get nothing more than production line gradings every few months at ridiculously high prices without actually properly learning their art (and this can happen to adults too).

Secondly, most martial artists agree that a child can not possibly have the same understanding of what they are doing as an adult does and can not be expected to be as responsible (not that all adults are responsible). For this reason in many arts children are not taught the full curriculum (no strangles/chokes etc.)

Some clubs get around this by not teaching children, some by training them but not allowing them to grade to black belt until 16.
In my association, children can take their junior black belt but have to re-test between 16 and 18 to demonstrate increased maturity and understanding. I personally think this is the best method.

I can not comment about women being treated differently as this does not happen either where I teach or where I train, but I allow any student who struggles with full pressups to start off doing them on their knees and this is, admittedly, usually the women and younger boys.
I do this because I feel more benenfit is derived from a press up from kneeling done properly than a full press up done badly or incorrectly.

Try not to let other people's predjudice upset you and don't enter into arguments about it. Prove you are worth your belt by the way you train and the way you conduct yourself in the dojo/dojang.

Most importantly, keep enjoying your training
Sharon

Sharon I agree with your reasoning 100%, kids are great students they are fun and often learn the techniques easily at times. However I agree with you that a child cannot achieve the same level as an adult when it comes to understanding what they are doing and the consequences thereof.Your associations practice of retesting is great, I wish I could convince my Kwa Jang to such a thing, but they worry about parents being upset, and because parental pressure varies with the level of pompousness it is inconsistent between Dojangs and Institutes. So some kids get to test when they are not ready but have put in the time and some are held back. It is to say the least disappointing and frustrating. My friend in West Coast TKD ( Ernie Reyes school) has a whole different belt sytem that the junior students use and they have to test into the adult systenm if they are interested.

[/QUOTE]

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#119437 - 08/21/03 01:57 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Storm,
I have also come across students (children and adults) who test when they have done their time regardless of their standard.
Surely this is a contradiction in terms. How can you "pass" a test you are not ready for? Driving examiners would not issue a licence based soley on the number of driving lessons a person has had.
I don't like to see children fail a grading. I avoid this as much as possible by giving them a mock grading in my dojo. Those that I think are up to standard are then graded by an independent instructor that does not know the students (who is much more experienced than myself). This avoids passing someone that is not good enough because "I know they can do better" or because "they are trying so hard".
I believe this is a good system because the failure rate is low but the standard remains high. Those that do not pass the mock grading are told they are not quite ready for their next grade and told what they need to work on, and then helped to do so.
As for parental pressure, I am happy to discuss any child's progress with their parents (who pay me, after all) but the decision on who grades is mine. Most appreciate that people are not allowed to "buy" the next grade, but have to earn it. In a few cases I have had parents say they disagree with my decision to not put their child forward. Most can be made to understand why, but some become angry about it. I know other instructors who deal with this by putting the child forward and letting them fail. I think this is unfair on the child, so I usually suggest to the parent that if they are unhappy with my decision they should find an instructor that better suits their needs. Some do so and some don't, that is their choice, but I will not be swayed on this point.
I have had no complaints about the re-testing because it is made clear early on that this is what happens. Children go no further than first dan anyway so it is not like they drop a grade at adult.

Kiwi, you have been doing martial arts for the same length of time as I have - nine years and you are probably better at it in some respects than I am. Because of your age you are probably faster (I am 39), you are possibly more flexible and almost definitely a quicker learner. Because you are male, you are probably stronger than I am.

However, I must agree with John that you should not be teaching unsupervised. Even if you are good at explaining and demonstrating techniques and are very mature for your age, you just do not have the life experience to deal with an emergencey for example.
If you are merely helping your instructor, under supervision, that is one thing and probably good experience as long as you are still getting training yourself. If you are teaching unsupervised and running your own class, most would consider it irresponsible at best and dangerous at worse.
Like John, I do not blame you, I blame your instructor.

I hope you do not take this comments personally, I think gaining your black belt is a fantastic acheivment and I hope you continue to enjoy your training. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
The above are just my opinions.
Sharon

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#119438 - 08/21/03 02:35 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Where did you get your degree, your MA, your teaching qualifications. Assuming you teach children also, where did you study child phsycology. How are you insured? at 15, you will not be covered under a general policy.

Umm John, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most MA teachers don't have a degree in child psychology, and in teaching [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]. As someone who spends thirty hours a week being taught by teachers, I can tell you that the teachers qualifications don't effect how much I learn. At mys school the teachers have varying qualifications, however I always learn the most from those teachers that are naturally friendly and confident.

On the matter of insurance..., every student pays ten dollars for insurance and the people who teach pay $150 (covered by the club). As a minor I recieve alot of protection when it comes to legal issues. Hence as far as insurance goes it is safer for me to be teaching then someone over eighteen.

and yes I have taken a mandatory teaching course (run by my association).

My chief instructor isn't to lazy to teach, however he find that you can teach better when you have fewer students to work on. As i am as technically competant as him, we split the class up.

Any teachers out there know how hard it is to teach more than twenty people at once (during patterns I correct every movement individually), if we did not split the class up it would take him all night just to go through the patterns.

Sharon
We do pregradings too, unfortunately when my chief instructor took over the club, there were many students who had been allowed to go through without (what I'd call) an acceptable standard. I have had a student leave because we would not let him go through. This is unfortunate but you cannot compromise the standard of your club because one student doesn't want to put the effort in to grade.

If you are merely helping your instructor, under supervision, that is one thing and probably good experience as long as you are still getting training yourself.

I do not get to train myself, basicly my chief instructor would have a hard time teaching me. I am a belt above him and have been doing it for a year longer. I train at home usually (luckily my father is a 1st degree in Taekwon-Do), in ITF Taekwon-Do you can purchase a sett of CD's with all the patterns, techniques and terminology.

note-When i say chief instructor I am refering to the chief instructor at my dojang, not the chief instructor of my organisation.




[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-21-2003).]

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#119439 - 08/21/03 08:04 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Kiwi

I can see that we're not getting anywhere.

You have no formal teaching qualifications, from the description of your insurance you're not covered. Sounds like a recipe for disaster. If the students had any sense they'd leave. They probably know no better.

You also state that you're a higher grade than your chief instructor. If you're a 15 year old 2nd dan, that speaks volumes about your "chief" instructor.


"and yes I have taken a mandatory teaching course (run by my association)."

Well whoop de doo!

"I do not get to train myself, basicly my chief instructor would have a hard time teaching me. I am a belt above him and have been doing it for a year longer. I train at home usually (luckily my father is a 1st degree in Taekwon-Do), in ITF Taekwon-Do you can purchase a sett of CD's with all the patterns, techniques and terminology."

Sounds like you're in for a whole lotta whup ass when you step in with the big boys. Oh, the arrogance of youth.

You're clearly not an instructor and you should stop putting yourself forward as one. At best it's fraud, at worst it's just pathetic.

JohnL


[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 08-21-2003).]

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#119440 - 08/21/03 04:28 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiwi:
"Where did you get your degree, your MA, your teaching qualifications. Assuming you teach children also, where did you study child phsycology. How are you insured? at 15, you will not be covered under a general policy."

Umm John, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most MA teachers don't have a degree in child psychology, and in teaching [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]. As someone who spends thirty hours a week being taught by teachers, I can tell you that the teachers qualifications don't effect how much I learn. At mys school the teachers have varying qualifications, however I always learn the most from those teachers that are naturally friendly and confident.

On the matter of insurance..., every student pays ten dollars for insurance and the people who teach pay $150 (covered by the club). As a minor I recieve alot of protection when it comes to legal issues. Hence as far as insurance goes it is safer for me to be teaching then someone over eighteen.

and yes I have taken a mandatory teaching course (run by my association).

My chief instructor isn't to lazy to teach, however he find that you can teach better when you have fewer students to work on. As i am as technically competant as him, we split the class up.

Any teachers out there know how hard it is to teach more than twenty people at once (during patterns I correct every movement individually), if we did not split the class up it would take him all night just to go through the patterns.

Sharon
We do pregradings too, unfortunately when my chief instructor took over the club, there were many students who had been allowed to go through without (what I'd call) an acceptable standard. I have had a student leave because we would not let him go through. This is unfortunate but you cannot compromise the standard of your club because one student doesn't want to put the effort in to grade.

"If you are merely helping your instructor, under supervision, that is one thing and probably good experience as long as you are still getting training yourself."

I do not get to train myself, basicly my chief instructor would have a hard time teaching me. I am a belt above him and have been doing it for a year longer. I train at home usually (luckily my father is a 1st degree in Taekwon-Do), in ITF Taekwon-Do you can purchase a sett of CD's with all the patterns, techniques and terminology.

note-When i say chief instructor I am refering to the chief instructor at my dojang, not the chief instructor of my organisation.


[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-21-2003).]
[/QUOTE]Would you like fries with that? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#119441 - 08/21/03 08:25 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
how in the hell is he supposed to test you for rank, or coach you if he is under you, and not been doing it as long??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
thats just retarded...to have a student who is better than you, YOUNGER than you,HIGHER in rank, and has been doing the same art in the same organization LONGER than you. preposterous. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG])...sorry but that is just complete nonsense.

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#119442 - 08/22/03 12:35 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
how in the hell is he supposed to test you for rank, or coach you if he is under you, and not been doing it as long??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
thats just retarded...to have a student who is better than you, YOUNGER than you,HIGHER in rank, and has been doing the same art in the same organization LONGER than you. preposterous. )...sorry but that is just complete nonsense.

As I said he doesn't, he doesn't teach me, and he doesn't consider me his student. I don't know about you, but I where I live the closest third degree is a three hour drive from me.

In your organisation does your instructor test you? In mine only fourth degrees and above are allowed to test. As their are very few fourth degrees, most of the people in my organisation are not tested by their instructor. I dont know about you, but in my organiastion once you get your black belt, you have to wait a couple of years to go for your next degree. Hence I don't need somone nearby to test me.

I ma going to repeat this as judging by your last post you havn't been able to understand me. At my dojang their is a chief instructor who takes care of the bussiness side of things and also trains half the class himself. I take the other half of the class. I train with him and not under him. Anyone else who is a high rank and lives in an isolated area will know how hard it is to find someone to train with.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-22-2003).]

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#119443 - 08/22/03 12:58 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Srry John I wrote my last post without reading what you wrote...

Almost wish I hadn't [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

John where I come from people are happy to be doing a martial art. I am happy just being able to train and teach.

lol mate after reading you last post it seems someone is having a hard time accepting that a 15 year old is beating them in an argument.

Lets review your recent arguments [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

"Well whoop de doo!"

your going to get your ass whooped and...

your a pathetic, arrogant criminal

If you read my post before the entire club is covered by a good insurance plan, as I am at all times in the presence of an adult instructor, their is no problem with insurance.

who do you consider the big boys? I have competed at a national level,I have attended national seminars.

John what you said in your last post just prooves my point.

age isn't all that matters

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#119444 - 08/22/03 03:17 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Are instructors this young the norm in TKD? That's two we have on this forum now.
Sharon

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#119445 - 08/22/03 06:11 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Wadowoman

Instructors my age certainly arn't the norm, I believe I am the youngest instructor by a bit over 10 years (my organisation). It's funny having two young instructors in the same forum. More of an odd coincidence then a trend in TKD.

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#119446 - 08/23/03 12:54 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
perrinwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 28
Wadowoman,

from what I have seen, here in the U.S. (it may be different down under) it is typcal for someone under 18 to be teaching. In TKD at least. Most other systems only allow "jr. black belts" to teach other children. (and I don't mean children to look down on Kiwi).

I will post what I feel pretty soon about this subject.

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#119447 - 08/23/03 05:55 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
In your organisation does your instructor test you? In mine only fourth degrees and above are allowed to test.
my instructor is a 4th dan lol
in DKI there is no such thing as a 1st or 2nd degree black belt instructor, in DKI you have to be at least a 3rd dan to even think about teaching without the supervision of your instructor, at his school.
to reach 3rd dan takes 9-10 years in DKI.
do you consider yourself high ranked?
i apologise for misunderstanding you about the chief instructor thing....why did he get it and not you if you are higher ranked?
oh by the way DKI is Dillman Karate International.

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#119448 - 08/23/03 07:00 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
kempo

Kempo it's because he deals with the business side of things aswell as the instructing. Basicly he is a good martial artist aswell as being very competent with the business side of things (degree, and also runs his own business).

Well to reach 2nd dan took me 8 years. So I consider myself of reasonably high rank. It would be ideal if we had a fourth degree chief instructor, however unfortunately it is not possible.

Oh yes, he also has a degree in psychology which I think might please John.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-23-2003).]

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#119449 - 08/23/03 07:19 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
smittenkittenTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 232
Loc: MI usa
John L, i explained my predicament about young teaching, maybe you didnt read it clearly, or at all, becuase i think you still have the wrong impression.

kiwi, even though i am a young black belt, when i hear ten year old blackbelt, a red flag raises. but i dont judge until i see the person train, becuase the martial arts can differ indivdually greatly. most of the time, i dont even look at rank, i look at skill. ive seen 8 year old blue belts with more talent than 20 year old black belts, and i tend to hold more respect for that blue belt kid than the adult.

rank should be an accurate representation of skill despite age, but becuase money and trophies are often involved, it becomes misleading.

Kitten

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#119450 - 08/24/03 09:27 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
if you are under 18...and he is younger than you...i doubt he could get a degree in chewing bubble gum, let alone phychology....just where did he obtain this degree you claim he has?

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#119451 - 08/24/03 09:58 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
He has been doing martial arts for less time then me, and so is younger in martial arts terms.

In reality he is 49.

Please read my posts carefully and make sure you understand [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Thankyou smittenkitten, that is exactly the point I am trying to get across.



[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#119452 - 08/25/03 12:13 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
Kiwi,It's time to face the truth,& That's There's noway that you could be a cerified instuctor unless you're a product of a mcdojo, [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#119453 - 08/25/03 12:11 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Kiwi

According to your figures, you've been training for 9 years, between the ages of 6-15.
The instructor at your club has been training for 2 years less than you, so 7 years, and he's now 49 years old, so from 42-47.
Now let me think about who I would rather have instructing me or my children. Well, that didn't take long did it.

I'm afraid we can't get away from the fact that you have been babysat for the past years of training and have absolutely no qualifications to teach a MA.

As for considering yourself senior in terms of MA training to the instructor I think you need to go for some attitude adjustment. He received 7 years training as an adult, you have received none.

It's a shame you can't find somewhere good to train I know, but coming on the forum and declaring yourself an instructer, merely puts foward the case of Mcdojo's everywhere.

JohnL

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#119454 - 08/25/03 12:55 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kiwi,
As I said before, I think gaining your black belt is a fantastic acheivment, although I can not understand how someone so young could go on to second dan.

Although John has worded his opinion rather more strongly than some would do, I must agree with what he said about you instructing.
I mean no offence, but I think the fact that you can not see why it is wrong PROVES John's point rather than questions it.

Moral issues aside, I would not pay good money for my children to train under (and I do not mean offence when I say this) another child.

Kitten,
You said "most of the time, i dont even look at rank, i look at skill. ive seen 8 year old blue belts with more talent than 20 year old black belts, and i tend to hold more respect for that blue belt kid than the adult."

You must either know some amazing eight year olds or some REALLY stupid 20 year olds.

My daughter is eight and considered extremly mature and intelligent for her age to the point where she is taken out of regular classes at school because she is so far advanced.
She has been in my dojo since she was a baby and started training under me when she was four and a half.
She lives with two 2nd dan instructors, myself and my husband, and she practices hard and often.
She is still years away from being a junior black belt, and at least eight away from a senior black belt. She is at LEAST ten years away from being CONSIDERED for instructor training

I just don't get why you don't get it.

Once again to kitten and kiwi, I am not having a go at either of you, but I think your instructors and your associations are irresponsible at best. What is wrong with people.
Sharon

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#119455 - 08/25/03 02:37 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Rand Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 338
what i think John meant by the big boys were the people who are older than you and faster,stronger,bigger, and dont fight in just"tournements".

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#119456 - 08/26/03 12:39 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Rand
I competed in the middle weight division for a state championship, I fought against a twenty one year old, granted I was bigger then him, but being 6 ft 3 and 75 kilos means you are bigger then alot of blokes. Alot of poeple don't realise this but these days teens mature physically a lot faster. The biggest guys I have seen in Taekwon-Do, are no bigger then some of the guys a play rugby with (6 ft 5, 100kg monsters).

Wadowwoman, I can see exactly where you are coming from, we get it, but we don't agree with it. John get's what I'm trying to say, but doesn't agree with it.

You said youve been doing martial arts for nine years, the same length as me. Now if I have the same level of technique and understanding, then why should you have a higher belt.

Can someone tell me exactly what a mcdojo is, I presume that it is a school in which people just pay to get through. Fortunately we don't have many of those in AUstralia, as most of the Taekwon-Do schools belong to a international organisation (ITF,WTF).

Wadowoman
I wont take offense of you calling me a child, s long as I can call you an old woman [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-26-2003).]

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#119457 - 08/26/03 01:27 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


kiwi,
I have no objection to you calling me an old woman, although I prefer to think of myself as in my prime [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

When I called you a child I was stating a fact. You are a child in the eyes of the law. I really did not mean it as an insult.

As you say, we both have nine years training. The difference is that I have nine years as an adult, you have nine years as a child. Even if you are very mature now, you could not possibly have been as mature as an adult for most of your training. This does make a difference, whether you like it or not.

I am not disputing that you are good at your art, as I have never seen you train. As I said earlier, you are probably better than me in some respects.

I am only concerned about someone so young being called an instructor. If your Dad ran a driving school and had been teaching you to drive since you were six, you would not be allowed to teach people to drive at 15 even if you were the safest driver in the world. This is for your protection as well as other people's.


This is obviously getting nowhere as I can not see how your associaltion could allow this sort of thing and you can not see how very wrong it is.
Sharon


[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 08-26-2003).]

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#119458 - 08/26/03 05:16 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
Can someone tell me exactly what a mcdojo is? They'er many definetions of what a mcdojo is,But I will give you just Two definetions. #1 Any dojo/dojang That will give out bet rankings,But not because you improved,But on how much you've payed. PS THIS IS A MCDOJO. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] #2 If the assistant instructor is a higher rank than the chief instructor. Btw kiw,I'm sure this post has brought back alot of memories [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#119459 - 08/26/03 07:17 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
NeinWunOne Offline
Member

Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Just registered - first post (yay!)

I feel I have to voice my opinions on this thread:

I think there is some assumption that one's rank (whether in-school, WTF, ATA, etc..) is the complete representative measure of one's skill or ability to perform. I would wholeheartedly disagree. Too many times have I heard the notion that "a black belt is so much better than X". A black belt is a color of belt that one attains when they reach a point. It is not a sign that says "this person knows it all", nor does it mean "this person knows absolutely nothing". It's simply a rank. There are plenty of lower gup/kyu ranked practicioners who are better than me at sparring, or could probably hand my ass over in a second in a real fight, but does that mean they should be a black belt too? Of course not, and it isn't because they haven't paid enough, or suffered enough, or simply haven't done this enough; it's more about the tenacity and patience of going through the ranks and learning material each and every step of the way.

Now that's for us "mortal and normal" people. There are certainly young prodigies and phenoms out there that could walk in a dojang and within 1 or 2 months perfom with similar tenacity and intensity as most 1st or 2nd Dan students. Some may even be a natural at fighting and can even compete against much more experienced competitors. But in the end, even they too have to go through each and every step, learning material as if they're learning different aspects of TKD before moving on.

They may pick up on things faster, and move through the ranks faster, but my point is that ultimately the only person who really should be caring about the rank is you and you only. If you know you deserve to be where you are, then be proud of it and forget what others think of you and your rank.

Regarding children's rank: I am a firm believer of rules and standards, but allow it to be flexible to handle the extremes. In general, I would not want a 10 year old 1st Dan instructing a class for the same reason wadowoman has for a kid to be teaching other people how to drive. There is more about teaching than simply skill, technique, and attitude. Kiwi: I don't question your ability to perform when teaching, but I wonder how you can effectively communicate to adults and really know how to teach them. Remember, kids learn fast, us adults are pretty stupid in the head when it comes to new things. From my experience, when a phenom teenager leads a class, she is *really* good at doing those techniques, but cannot really effectively teach us on how to do it because she simply doesn't understand how naturally stubborn we all are. Even my master admits how hard it is to learn new techniques that people are popularizing today that he didn't learn 20 years ago.

Personally, it's in my belief that it isn't the rank that makes the instructor, it's their maturity that makes them good teachers. That being said, if you are a kid with adult maturity and know how to teach and demonstrate with forethought and careful attention, then I would have the exact same respect for you as I would to any instructor / master. However, most kids and teenagers that I have seen are not mature enough to teach certain classes, but I am not closed to the idea, pending that it's a child phenom with the maturity of a working adult / parent / anyone who has to deal with real-life rigors outside of school playgrounds and dojangs.

There may be exceptions to all of this. If your organization is in a location where people are far apart, and there are rules, and the setup is made because you have to "make do" with whatever you got because of a lack of experienced students or resources, then I suppose that's better than not having a system of instructions and students.

Just remember that being an instructor of any kind requires leadership, mental tenacity, communication, the right state of mind / attitude, and above all, patience. Having lots of ability is useful, but only if you can effectively communicate along with it.

Anyhow, my two $0.02.

//Dave
(Uses Taekwondo to bludgeon people and Kendo to...bludgeon people even more?)

[This message has been edited by NeinWunOne (edited 08-26-2003).]

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#119460 - 08/27/03 01:03 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Nein
Tx for your post. It is probably the best post I have seen on this topic, as it shows both sides of the argument, and shows exactly what each side is trying to put across.

Ishinn as usuall you have resorted to insulting people rather then having a discussion with them. I hope you realise that this means you have already lost the argument.

I am going to stop posting in this topic, as it is clear that some of us will never agree.

Ishinn I hope you realise that calling someones dojang a mcdojo is very insulting to anyone proud of their martial art. Please don't resort to this sort of thing next time you post.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-27-2003).]

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#119461 - 08/27/03 05:02 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i think basically what everyone is trying to say, is that regardless of how many years you have been training...there is a certain wisdom, a certain maturity...that only comes with age....deny it all you want, its the truth, always has been, always will be.

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#119462 - 08/27/03 07:44 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiwi:

Ishinn I hope you realise that calling someones dojang a mcdojo is very insulting to anyone proud of their martial art. Please don't resort to this sort of thing next time you post.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-27-2003).]
[/QUOTE]

Ishin, there's no need to stop.

15 year old second dan calling himself an instructor = Mcdojo.

It really isn't that difficult is it.

JohnL

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#119463 - 08/27/03 08:12 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Colly Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 66
I think rank should always be decided on proficiency, not age or duration of study. I see some kids in my dojang at red belt level, and they can't even stand in a front stance. If you have the technique to advance at a young age, more power to you, but you should test everyone with the same criteria.

I think the real issue here is, as usual, money. The instructors only let younger, less proficient students advance in rank because the parents need to see that they are benefiting from the expensive class. If a child remained a white belt until he actually deserved a yellow belt, the parents would think he was not learning anything and take the child to an instructor more willing to promote. This gains a monopoly for the less traditional instructor, thus all instructors do it to keep up.

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#119464 - 08/27/03 08:28 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Colly,
I know where you are coming from when you say that if a child does not advance the child often leaves.
However, not ALL instructors grade children before they should just to keep them. I have lost many many before their first grading.
I prefer to lose them sooner rather than later if they or their parents have this attitude. But then I do not run my classes as a business. Those that do have many expenses to cover and gradings help with this.
Sharon

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#119465 - 08/27/03 08:34 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Colly Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 66
Ok Sharon, but do you test the children as strictly as you test the adults? I think all instructors are more lenient. This facilitates children holding ranks they don't deserve.

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#119466 - 08/27/03 10:13 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Colly,
obviously, less is expected of younger people than adults. They will have less understanding and if very young, less control of their bodies. This is why if a person attains junior black belt before 16, they must take an adult dan grading between 16 and 18 or revert to 1st kyu in our association.
I never grade my own students, even at a low grade to ensure standards remain as they should be.
I held my own daughter at blue belt (5th kyu in our system) for over nine months because she was physically incapable, due to age, of performing some of our syllabus for the next grade. Once I considered her ready, she was graded by independent instructors.
I know exactly what you are talking about, I have seen it many times. But honestly, there are instructors that do not grade students purely on the basis of how long they have been training.
Sharon

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#119467 - 08/27/03 04:12 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i think children and adults should NOT learn the same thing.
children are taught to use things differently than adults.

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#119468 - 08/27/03 04:38 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
NeinWunOne Offline
Member

Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Since the master at our dojang conducts all testing, he would usually not allow adults or children to test unless he feels they're ready.

Each rank has a laundry list of things to do in order for a promotion to take place. We do tell parents up front when they sign their children up that we will adhere to pre-determined standards, and if the child does not meet those standards, then they will re-test next month, and keep re-testing until they meet them. One of the things is that we try to inform the parents that they're not necessarily paying for rank, but rather they're paying for improvement of technique and understanding of the entire art as a whole.

One of the things I like about my sabuhnim is that he personally calls the children's parents once a month to open a line of communication. They can discuss the child's progress, what their strengths, areas of weakness, etc. as well as keep tabs if they're doing well in school, at home, etc. If you involve parents in the entire process, then they are less likely to distance themselves from this entire process and are less likely to withdraw their children from your dojang if they fail an examination or if they are "held back".

I know of a few parents that even express holding back their child because they don't think they're as good as they want them to be, but most will defer that decision to our sabuhnim as he'll be very honest about whether a child or an adult should test.

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#119469 - 08/27/03 04:42 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree kempo-jitsu. The more dangerous techniques such as strangles/chokes etc should definitely not be taught to children.

Nor should several other things for safety reasons or because their bodies are still developing.

I think most instructors are aware of these differences.
Sharon

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#119470 - 08/27/03 04:58 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
NeinWunOne Offline
Member

Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Agreed as well.

Kid's do not need to learn the same things that adults learn as they're growing up mentally and physically.

There are some young teenagers who do mature very early on, and if they show exemplinary discipline and maturity, then we simply suggest to them to attend the adult classes. That way, you keep both class material seperate.

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#119471 - 08/28/03 06:33 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
Can i ask a very naive question to the instructors out there who teach a different syallabus to the children in their class?

I've only been invloved in the MA's for over a year (although i was a grandmaster when it came to armchair style) so i'm not entirely sure about the process.

Anyway back to my naive question-if a junior reaches black belt at 16/17, and then has to regrade for their senior blackbelt, what way does that work? i mean if they are too young to be taught various techniques due to them still growing etc. do they have to learn the entire senior syllabus for their senior grading?

I know how naive this question sounds but its one of those things that constantly eat away at your mind kind of questions (in my case anyway).

Big Bear

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#119472 - 08/28/03 06:49 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Big bear,
Your question does not sound naieve at all.

Juniors (that is, under 16s) do the same syllabus as the adults except dangerous techniques such as chokes and strangles for obvious reasons. Different instructors have different opinions on what age to teach these, and sometimes it does depend on the young person concerned.
The reasoning behind re-taking the grade at adult level (after 16th birthday but before 18th) is that an adult is expected to have and demonstrate more understanding of what they are doing and why. They are expected to have more physical strength, more endurance and be able to cope with more physical contact in sparring. If the syllabus contains techniques not suitable for children, they learn these when old enough before they re-grade.I personally think the age for adult dan grade should be 18 not 16 but it is not my decision.

If a child is tested for black belt at 14 or 15 years old, they can not possibly be expected to perform in the same way as an adult.

There are many schools of thought on this. Some associations will not award dan grades to children at all and some will have children grading to second or third dan, and continue grading as they enter adulthood without re-taking the first dan. I personally think the age for adult dan grade should be 18 not 16 but it is not my decision.

I also think allowing juniors to dan grade if they want to and re-testing for adult dan grade is the best system, although I suspect that some associations do this so that they can collect two grading fees from one person.
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 08-28-2003).]

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#119473 - 08/28/03 02:35 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I haven't read all of this post properly but I do agree with what I have read of JohnL's posts.

I won't say much on this subject but in the eyes of the law (in the UK) a 15 year old can't drink, can't smoke, can't have sex, can't drive a car, can't get married, can't have a credit card can't obtain a licence to teach.

High school teachers have to spend years to get through Uni so they can teach - they didn't start school at 6 and then felt they could teach the class by 15 - did they? No most started at 5 and qualified to teach at 22 (ish?) thats 17 years of being in a school environment before they could teach in a school environment.

The merits of learning and age discrimination aside there are plenty of great 15 year olds out their with high grades and I see no problem with developing their skills by tutoring/teaching under the supervision of their instructors. I do believe that regrading to become a senior black belt should be done at minimal cost to the student. The reasons for this I feel I have explained.

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#119474 - 08/28/03 05:06 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
I Agree with ukff,But I also think that while a young child is promoted to BB before his/her time,It Can,& Will lead to false confidence, Or Arrogance,Or if worse comes to worse,He/she might not learn anything at all.Btw,I Wonder if it's mostly because some intuctors are being pressured by the parents? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Isshin Dude (edited 08-28-2003).]

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#119475 - 08/29/03 03:42 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Absolutely right Ishin Dude, especially where the instructor is running abusiness.
Sharon

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#119476 - 08/29/03 02:24 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
Sharon thanks for enlightening me, Much appreciated.

Big Bear

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#119477 - 08/29/03 03:04 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
John,

Do you think that in order to be a MA teacher, you need a BA and a Masters in teaching?

Personally this seems strange to me. I'm an undergraduate, but I can't see how my law and economics would help me teach someone how to throw a punch.

Do you also think that you need to have studied and passed exams in child psychology in order to teach children?

I'm not being sarky, I want to know your opinion, and its justification.

From your posts I'd guess you'd also expect a teacher to be qualifed in first aid.

I was wondering whether it would be rude to ask this, but seeing as you are so forthright in your views [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] I guess its fair:

Do you instruct? Do you instruct children? Do you have the qualifications you outline in your posts?

Also, what do you think are the minimum qualifications someone has to have in order to teach MA?

thanks,

Alec.

PS In reference to a previous post, I'd agree that I've had the experience of being taught by highly qualified absolutely useless teachers. As a student I respond best to personality, experience, entertainment and intelligence.



[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 08-29-2003).]

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#119478 - 08/29/03 05:09 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
smittenkittenTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 232
Loc: MI usa
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Kiwi,
As I said before, I think gaining your black belt is a fantastic acheivment, although I can not understand how someone so young could go on to second dan.

Although John has worded his opinion rather more strongly than some would do, I must agree with what he said about you instructing.
I mean no offence, but I think the fact that you can not see why it is wrong PROVES John's point rather than questions it.

Moral issues aside, I would not pay good money for my children to train under (and I do not mean offence when I say this) another child.

Kitten,
You said "most of the time, i dont even look at rank, i look at skill. ive seen 8 year old blue belts with more talent than 20 year old black belts, and i tend to hold more respect for that blue belt kid than the adult."

You must either know some amazing eight year olds or some REALLY stupid 20 year olds.

My daughter is eight and considered extremly mature and intelligent for her age to the point where she is taken out of regular classes at school because she is so far advanced.
She has been in my dojo since she was a baby and started training under me when she was four and a half.
She lives with two 2nd dan instructors, myself and my husband, and she practices hard and often.
She is still years away from being a junior black belt, and at least eight away from a senior black belt. She is at LEAST ten years away from being CONSIDERED for instructor training

I just don't get why you don't get it.

Once again to kitten and kiwi, I am not having a go at either of you, but I think your instructors and your associations are irresponsible at best. What is wrong with people.
Sharon
[/QUOTE]


Good for your daughter. shes one of the many.

im not saying kiwi's situation was correct, and i dont even think my dojang has been all that great for my MA career. I was just trying to make the point that money will distort the original purpose of the belt system. my blue/black kid/adult line was just an example. You took it way too litteraly.

On my other post, everyone thought i was an instructor, which they would have gotten that impression, becuase i claimed it. But i was only doing that to simplify, and later i explained. i dont think anyone bothered to follow up however, because everyone still thinks im in some mcdojo training shitty martial artists at the age of 14. so for the last time!!!!!!!!!:

I AM NOT AN INSTRUCTOR. I MIS INFORMED YOU ALL FOR THE SAKE OF SIMPLIFICATION, AND I DID NOT REALIZE THE IMPLICATIONS IT CAUSED.

I HELP MY MASTER RUN OUR CHILDRENS CLASSES. I DO NOT TEACH TECHNIQUE,I RE INFORCE TECHINIQUE.IN NO WAY IS MY ASSOCIATION OR INSTRUCTOR IRRESPONSIBLE FOR LETTING ME ASSIST HIM.

" just don't get why you don't get it."

Ditto.

Kitten.

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#119479 - 08/29/03 05:24 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
NeinWunOne Offline
Member

Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Actually having students as "instructors" is something I don't see often.

At least in our dojang, we just have that one place, and our sabuhnim teaches about 8 classes a day from 9am to 9:30pm at by himself. Occassionally, he'll have several adults from his adult classes (does not necessarily have to be by rank, but probably someone who is experienced in working with people and can handle a potential crisis if something does go wrong) to teach all other classes to cover for him if he goes to Korea or a much-needed vacation :-).

We have a 5th student (talk about career student) who moved to this area, and continues to take Taekwondo. He will help out with the classes when needed so I guess he is our 'assistant instructor' but the dojang's roster is fairly small so that term rarely gets used.

As such, I don't believe that you need to have a degree in anything to start a school. I'm sure that perhaps having a BA: Business Administration would help, but certainly I think the key skill you need in starting a MA school is your brain. There are plenty of people that I know who would make a good instructor or master, and have the smarts to run the business, and they do not have college degrees.

[This message has been edited by NeinWunOne (edited 08-29-2003).]

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#119480 - 08/30/03 08:51 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I don't believe a BA in anything will help teach MA, I was pointing out that a school teacher has to go through a lot before they can start teaching.

I do believe that 5+ years of Martial Arts experience after black belt is needed to have their own club - I think teaching experience should be gained throughout the life of a MA to gain confidence and question their techniques.

I would rather be taught by someone older - purely because they have had real life experience - I mean how many 15 year old kids have seen fights in a bar? Oh hang on they aren't allowed in there in the first place!

Although I will say that I have seen some instructors who haven't really trained with anyone else (I'm not talking cross training just with other experts in their field) this can be worrying as they have not had the wide variety of teaching styles and experience. This is why people like Terry O'neill are so good to train with - because they have trained with everybody and trained everybody!

Also many styles do not require instructors to have official first aid training as well as other coaching skills including diet and strenth training knowledge. I know I am more knowledgable than many instructors I have trained under - not being big headed just the truth as I have a gym instructor certificate and have first aid skills (although my certificate has recently expired - whoops, don't worry I don't teach!).

There are some good organisations I think the EKGB have a coaching programme and the BJA require instructors to have coaching certificates and first aid skills.

I think it is an instructors responsibility to get qualifications if their organisation doesn't require it.

Any thoughts? Does your organisation/club require coaching/first aid certificates for its instructors?

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#119481 - 09/02/03 08:34 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by smittenkittenTKD:


On my other post, everyone thought i was an instructor, which they would have gotten that impression, becuase i claimed it. But i was only doing that to simplify, and later i explained. i dont think anyone bothered to follow up however, because everyone still thinks im in some mcdojo training shitty martial artists at the age of 14. so for the last time!!!!!!!!!:

Kitten.
[/QUOTE]

Hi SMK
I think people got it, it was just that kiwi stirred the pot with his claims and people were referencing the original discussion. Yes, you did clarify that you do not instruct.

Having discussed the topic of ages, grades and teaching on the TKD section of the forum, I bought a Taekwondo times magazine at the weekend to see if there was anything of interest.

Sure enough, there was a girl of 17 being awarded her 4th dan. Her instructor was extolling the virtues of her abilities.

If Kiwi can only acheive a 2nd dan at 15, how is he possibly going to keep up. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

It would appear that the grades in TKD are even more misrepresented than those in karate.
It's time to do away with them all. They are clearly worthless.

JohnL

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#119482 - 09/02/03 10:52 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Alec
Interesting post.
Do I think you need a BA and Masters to teach a MA. Not necessarily. I was suggesting that they might be useful when a 15 year old put himself forward as a MA instructor.
If you were going to teach in a school, the first question at an interview would be where did you get your teaching qualifications and they would be discussed in detail. Yes, there are good and bad teachers out there but they would all be expected to have the basic qualifications.

Knowledge of first aid, essential. My wife, who teaches makes sure she keeps her first aid knowledge up to speed with courses every 2 years or so. And she only teaches academic subjects to children. If you're going to teach a MA it's essential.
My response above is on the basis that you are going to instruct children. If you are going to instruct adults, I believe few people under the age of 30 would have the required life experiences to be able to do so effectively.
The idea of a 15 year old instructing adults in the MA's fills me with abject horror.

No, your law degree will not help you much in teaching how to throw a punch, however it is probable that the people lecturing you in law have law degree's and teacher qualifications.
If you're going to teach children, then a qualification in that field is appropriate.

As for the personal data;

Do I instruct;
Only experienced martial artists. That normally follows a discussion and experimentation of ideas format that is more an exchange of information rather than straight teaching.

Do I instruct children:
No

I do have a degree but not in a relevant field, I have lectured and been a mentor to younger proffesionals in my own field.

I have also practiced MA's for some 30 years and have opinions and ideas that I discuss/practice with other experienced martial artists.

I don't think there's a minimum requirement. I think it varies from person to person. I'm not sure where the line for competent instruction lies, but I know a 15 year old, however good, lies way below it.

JohnL

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#119483 - 09/02/03 04:02 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Thanks.

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#119484 - 09/02/03 06:05 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
NeinWunOne Offline
Member

Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Seattle, Washington
I do see some exceptions to this.

There are certainly individuals out there who make a decision early on that they want to devote their life to the study of martial arts, and have started at an early age.

A lot of young students like these start when they are children, and because they discover a talent or drive to do so, they devote all of their "free time" in learning an art while juggling school.

From this, if their demeanor is mature and focused, it is very conceivable that they would be 3rd Dan or 4th Dan. A few of 6-7th Dan's who are in their early and mid 30's to 40's started that path early on.

However, many students who follow this path should be well into their Poom ranks (1st Poom through 4th Poom) prior to receiving the Dan equivalent. The Kukkiwon guidelines are very clear on age requirements and years or study between ranks.

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#119485 - 09/05/03 12:03 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Everyone is very steadfast in their beliefs. This is promising, and I hope you all fight as fierce as you talk when you have only your techniques to guard your life. I do not study Tae Kwon Do, but Matsubayashi Ryu so I cannot comment about Tae Kwon Do in good conscious. My only comment is that earlier in this forum agism was related to racism. I am a twenty seven year old black man from St. Louis, MO USA. I have been both black and young(some say I still am very young, but why do I feel so old?) believe me when I say that being young is a far cry from being a minority who is the victim of racism. It is very disheartening to hear such a comparison.

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#119486 - 09/05/03 01:36 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Medulanet,
Welcome to the forums [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

The only references I can find refering to racism in this thread are ones pointing out that any "ism" is wrong, which indeed it is.

I am sure no one meant any offence, we don't even know (or care) what colour most people here are.

The people concerned were not talking about ageism being as bad as racial abuse. They were putting the opinion that not grading someone purely on the grounds of age sex or race are all equally wrong. Racial abuse is obviously a seperate and far more serious matter.

Perhaps you misunderstood? We have all done that at one time or another here because the written word lacks facial and vocal expression.

Anyway, sorry again that you were offended, I hope that does not stop you from posting and learning here.
Sharon

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#119487 - 09/05/03 06:33 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
I know I said I wouldn't post again, but racism is a seriouss isue, and I need to make my intentions clear.

Tx Wadowoman, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I apologise if my comments offended you, my intent was to prove that basing things on race, sex or age is wrong.I believe that they should be compared as they are basicly the same thing. Racism is far more serious, but fundamentally they are the same thing. I also believe that in todays society racism and sexism are now considered wrong. However in my opinion agism is not.

This time Ill change it. I won't post again unless the argument progresses, which it has.

Oh, and Ishinn, yea I'm learning Judo.


[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 09-05-2003).]

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#119488 - 09/05/03 09:27 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Thank you for your concern. I pretty much knew where you were coming from, but I was concerned that the message that you were trying to convey may have been unclear to some. I appreciate your clarification.

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#119489 - 09/05/03 10:39 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
QUOTE]Medulanet,Welcome to the forums. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Kiwi, Ageism is discrimination against the middle aged,Especially discrimination against the elderly. Well I Guess you could say that agism is wrong,& It has nothing to do witha 15 yr old 2nd degree BB.

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#119490 - 09/05/03 10:42 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
Btw Kiwi,Have you ever thought about learning a different MA? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#119491 - 09/05/03 02:52 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Yes Kiwi, I know you said you weren't going to post on this section and doing so was tempting fate, but you still don't get it do you. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

When I teach or am taught by someone of a different race I make no allowance for this. Race has no effect on their teaching, performance or learning of karate.

When I teach or am taught by women I make allowances;

1. The majority of women are not used to the physical contact associated with MA training. As such I tone this down until I am sure that they are ready for it.

2. The majority of women are not used to being held (grappled) and can feel uncomfortable if this is done by a male that they do not know. I ensure that when they start grappling they do so with other females.

3. Most women are not used to the agressive nature a MA can involve. This can be disturbing. I start with a non aggresive nature to the training and build on this.

Please note that I said the majority of women. There are exceptions, but the above applies to the majority of women I have trained with.

As far as age goes, it's a totally different thing. Dealing with children according to their age and maturity is not a predudice but a necessity. Children are not adults.

As such, to suggest that agism should be mentioned in the same sentence as racism shows that however mature you are, you are still a child.

JohnL

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#119492 - 09/05/03 04:04 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
I'm with John on this one. Ageism in this sense is a nonsense.

A child should be treated differently to an adult. A child should be held in a different regard by society.

Society requires generalisations in order to work cohesively. Therefore to state an adult is someone of a certain age plus, may be 'unfair' to individuals, but it is necessary.

Ageism exists, in the sense that society doesn't allow equal opportunity to those of different ages but similar abilities given those abilities are backed with 'qualifications'.

In this sense the problem could be aligned with racism or sexism. However sexism and racism cannot be compared to the division between adults and children. This is not discrimination. This is the beneficial and necessary function of society. Any comparison is flawed.

Age in itself is a qualification, and a necessary one for a task as demanding as teaching.



[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 09-05-2003).]

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#119493 - 09/05/03 04:34 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well said Alec and John.
Sharon

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#119494 - 09/05/03 06:52 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Society make generilisations towards children because they don't have the recources to test each and every childs ability to cope with certain things. Hence they make age limits (generilisations). However in an environment where the child is (and in my case was) individually acessed, interviewed and tested, these generilisations have no place.

Just my opinion

Taekwon

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#119495 - 09/07/03 05:50 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiwi:
Society make generilisations towards children because they don't have the recources to test each and every childs ability to cope with certain things. Hence they make age limits (generilisations). However in an environment where the child is (and in my case was) individually acessed, interviewed and tested, these generilisations have no place.

Just my opinion

Taekwon
[/QUOTE]ROFLMAOAY!

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#119496 - 09/18/03 01:31 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
John G Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 20
I had a discussion with two junior 1st Dan black belts (one girl, one boy) the other day, both started when they were 5 y/o and graded to Jnr Black Belt when they were 10. They both have to wait until they are 14 before they can grade to 2nd Dan and are now both 11 y/o.

Since these two young people have spent more than half their life training in our club, I asked them both a few questions regarding age requirements for the different programmes run at our club (little dragons, juniors, adults)

Both agreed that:
Little Dragons should be from 4 – 6 y/o
Juniors 7 – 10 y/o
Adults 11 +

No surprises there:

When I stated the differences between programmes i.e
Little Dragons: fun, fitness, games, minimal technique, informal etc…
Juniors: formal, tournament orientated, fitness some fun and games etc...
Adults: formal, strict, fitness, bunkai/application of technique etc…

They still agreed on the ages they selected.

I asked them if they thought it wise to teach 11 year olds how to kill someone, I gave them the example of a trouble maker at their school 1 year older than them joining up.

Should I teach this person adult concepts and hope that he doesn’t loose his temper at school and accidentally seriously hurt or kill a classmate?

After further discussions (legal ramifications etc) they both agreed that adult concepts
should be taught to people mature enough to know right from wrong and who were legally responsible for their actions (18).

Kiwi, at what age or level of maturity do you think adult concepts should be taught, and who do you think should be made responsible if things go wrong?

BTW: Folks, ITF New Zealand has one of, if not the highest grading standards in the world with regard to Taekwon-do martial arts. Adult concepts are taught when the instructor deems a student worthy and responsible of this type of instruction. Some people never get taught these concepts.

Respectfully,

John G

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#119497 - 09/18/03 09:01 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
John G

Well we seem to have a lot in comon, I got my black belt in ITFNZ and where both 2nd degrees (got my second degree in Australia).

What adult concepts are you talking about? ANyways I think that keeping younger people in the dark about things is wrong and does not help.

In my opinion younger people should deal with adult concepts as early as possible (taking into consideration maturity, rank etc).


[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 09-19-2003).]

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#119498 - 09/19/03 03:15 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
John G Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 20
Kiwi,

Call it a generation gap thing or fear litigation, but some how I feel responsible when explaining concepts like when its on, its on, use extreme force and don’t stop until you attacker is rendered incapacitated, strike first ask questions latter, cover your tracks, make sure there no witnesses, make sure you say this or that to the police if there are witnesses make sure you say this or that directly after the assault because nine times out of ten witnesses will remember what you said but not exactly when you said it.

The question is when dose one gain the knowledge or life experience required to determine when it’s on, it’s on. I avoid, talk my way out off or walk away from all confrontations. If I knew when I was a young man (16 – 30) what I know now with the temper and immaturity I had back then I would probably be in jail now.

It’s easy, too easy to kill some one or to servery disable them, testosterone, peer pressure, pride, fear, possessionis are all contributing factors to conflict. Kiwi, if you feel that you could beg for mercy walk away from ANY conflict, eat humble pie, kowtow to others without loosing your temper, punching out walls etc. and only EVER use deadly and decisive force knowing and accepting the consequences of your actions then I will teach you every thing I know for free.

How do you explain concepts like rape/ sexual abuse and how to deal with possible overwhelming odds to 11 y/o girls or boys? What age do you think they should be taught?

Respectfully,

John G

2nd Degree (Dan) ITF Taekwon-do
Western Australia.
Age: 43

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#119499 - 09/19/03 12:21 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Kiwi

Pobbably should not jump in here-I am not a TKD sylist and everyone has said it better than I could.

But when you tested for your BB did you test vs adults or other children? Did you spar the other adults in your school? did you do the grappling and joint locks on adult?

If your tested vs children then you really have a "childs" rank.

Even if you are THE exception to the rule--hey maybe you are!

That in no way means the "average" or "normal" 15 year old could.

We don't make laws and rules for the exception we make them for the what is the "norm."

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#119500 - 09/19/03 09:22 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
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Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
CXT

Given that I was the only child testing it would seem logical that I had to sparr with adults. Evrything the adults did I was expected to do.

John G

I really don't think that their should be a set age in which you explain things to a kid. I personally think that you have to trust your judgement as to when a child is ready to here something like this. However most kids these days learn about sexual harassment and rape in year 3 or 4. At elleven most kids start learning sexuall awareness in PE and are reasonably well informed about this sort of thing. You'd be suprised at what kids know.

As far as defending oneself, and when to attack/walk away. I believe anyone who has showed the dedication and strength of character to get their black belt has shown that they are capable of understanding what you are talking about.

anyway what I'm trying to say is keeping kids in the darkl about this sort of thing (when they have reached a certain rank) can only inhibit their development as a martial artist.

Taekwon

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#119501 - 09/20/03 02:00 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
dualblackbeltsmom Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/03
Posts: 26
Loc: jonesborough,tn,usa
to kiwi and smitten

from a parent who had watched two children work very hard for their blackbelts, i congratulate every youngster who has acheived their ranks. do not be dissuaded by any adult who is intimidated by the level of dedication and devotion that is required to excell in tkd.

my children are in the ITA and there are guideline and very specific criteria that must be met before rank advancement is awarded. my oldest will be required to train with the adults when he turns 14, and he is 4'11" and weighs less that 80 lbs. had to spar in the adult class for one of his rank advancements-made him a better tkd student. talk about a self-confidence issue. well, that is a tenent of tkd, as well as perserverence and courage.

not all tkd schools are set up as money stores, or as "whop a--" instruction. there is more than that to tkd, and if a youngster can meet the requirements for rank advancement, then they earned it!

age does not determine knowledge, knowledge knows no age. with today's tecnology, the older generation should never be too proud to take instruction from someone younger that oneself, or soon we will be left in the "dumb" room. that should also apply to any aspect of our lives. if a youngster is qualified and can properly demonstrate and execute the techniques, then they should be able to instruct others. there is a test system for rank advancement and for instructor rank, so if they pass the test then they know their stuff.

i have seen some awesome children in tournaments who behaved like they were doing something ordinary, and then observed average-to less than average adults who strutted around like peacocks.

todays youth are exposed to things the older generation never had the opportunity to experience at this young age. that does not mean that the young shouldn't, or can't, do what their elders do. tkd teaches much more than martial arts, and for the youth that is as important as learning how to spar. one of the ita tenents is integrity-anyone practice that in their everyday life? how about honesty, courage, community, perserverence?

my son plays baseball, basketball, is running crosscountry at his school, wrestles, attends to his school work, and then does the neighborhood guy thing (riding bikes, ect) and still makes the time to attend tkd class and practice at home. for a youngster to be dedicated to anything for more than a season in their lives is an accomplishment in itself, but to be dedicated to something for years at a time is not the average youngster.

if the work is complete, the reward should be given. age should not determine how long someone must wait to be asknowledged for an achievement.

i am proud of what my blackbelts have accomplished. i know, because i am the one who gets them to class, tournaments, testing, and sits through each class. i know how hard it is sometimes to have to tell your friends that they have to go home, because it is class time. i have watched my youngest pull at her doboks (no, they are not funny pajama's) because she was so nervous-well she has't done that in a long time-her self-confidence has improved. they have also learned to gracefully accept no-changes and watch others progress who they felt were not as good.

i admire any youngster who sets a goal, goes after that goal, and works for that goal. be proud of your acheivements, perhaps us older persons are a little envious of your stamina and youthful minds!!!!!!!

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#119502 - 09/20/03 02:16 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Blackbeltsmom,
You are entitled to be proud of your young black belts. My daughter is a 3rd kyu, so a while off black yet, but I know I will burst with pride when she gets there.

I have no problem learning a kata, for example from a child who knows it better than I do, and have done so. I am sure your children are more than capable of taking a junior grade through a kata, I do not dispute that at all. My own students under 18 of a high grade take adults through kata sometimes whilst I am taking someone else. This is a great help to me and the student being taught.

This is very different to them being an instructor though. Being an instructor requires not just technical competence but the kind of maturity that can only come with age. Some people in thier 20s do not have this, so surely we could not expect someone under 18 to have it.

I do not think there should be aminimum age for instructing out of "ageism" as kiwi suggests, I think it should be so both to protect the junior "instructor" as well as any students they may have.
Sharon

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#119503 - 09/20/03 03:23 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
These discussions remind me about reading and hearing people talk of the "olden" days when there were no belts and a person was known for their martial prowess only by surviving fights that were literally to the death. Those days of martial arts are gone now and we have these rankings that many people use to judge people in certain martial arts. In the "olden" days I never heard about a 10 year old martial arts expert because he/she would more than likely be killed at an early age when his/her skills were truly "tested." Today is different however. We get a belt and we believe we can teach. We win a tournament and we think we can fight. We break a rule and we think we are exceptional. Teach if you want at what age you want and if those that you teach are satisfied with your teachings then continue. Strive to be the very best you can be regardless of rank, belts, or other martial artists. There will always be someone who will tell you you should not be doing something that you feel you should, this is life. Age in the martial arts is very tricky. When I was 14 my sensei told me to take it easy on the adults (29-40) in my class(we usually sparred with no protective equipment and contact varied from light to 80% of full power). I did not understand why becasue they were of a higher rank than me, older than me, more experienced, and not to mention I was 5'7 and 130 pounds. My kata was better and our understanding of karate was around the same level. Did I feel that I was entitled to a higher rank because of my skill regardless of my age, no. Was I being taught things that most children of my age were not, yes. Did it come close to child abuse, yes. Normal classes consisted of punching cinderblocks until your knuckles bled, taking full contact punches to the abdomen, full contact shutos to the neck and throat, being struck with wooden staffs, hundreds of push ups and sit ups, etc. All of this before the brown belt level. With some traditional okinawan karate it is physically most difficult up to shodan. Traditional martial arts are brutal. Most children (6 and up) may be able to memorize fancy moves and understand the concepts, but it is very difficult to train a child properly in this day and age. A child does not always know when to stop or not to do something that is not good for them. Children don't want to appear weak or less than an adult. When demonstrating a technique I will often show a 12 year old a punch. To demonstrate a technique some believe a person must experience its effectiveness. I will strike him with maybe 30-40% and he will often double over(I stopped doing this since.) What do you think his parents would say if they saw me do this? Some parents will not allow their children to spar without gloves or a mouth piece, or a cup. What should a teacher do. Should he just teach all children as if they were adults risking their health and his lively hood in the process? 100 children may be injured before and exceptional individual may get his chance to excel. If I am accused of training and adult too hard he/she leaves the dojo, if the same thing happens to a child I am accused of child abuse and I may never teach again. I personally don't have my own dojo because I need to find a balance between brutal training and the passing on of okinawan karate technique. I am simply assisting another sensei who is attempted to transition to the style which I practice(minus brutal training methods). My point is don't worry about what others think about your age, don't worry about what rank you achieve, don't even worry about respect you get on an internet forum. There are just as many adults who do not deserve these worthless belts as there are children. Only concentrate on your martial ability and your development as a human being because one day you may be tested on each(and not in a dojo for a silly piece of paper and a cheap canvas belt). Nothing else really matters.

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#119504 - 09/21/03 07:51 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
John G Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 20
Wise words medulanet..

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#119505 - 09/22/03 03:55 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
Wise words indeed Medulanet

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#119506 - 02/11/04 02:56 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Wei YiXiao Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/10/04
Posts: 10
too true medulanet. a black belt is simply a symbol to represent that you have passed static methods of training. hurray and move on. a martial artist should be measured by what martial art is: combat until the opposition is in no condition to give you any trouble

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#119507 - 05/26/04 10:27 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Good Morning Kiwi,

Dozens of others have already commented on this, I wonder if I will add anything to the discussion/debate... but for my part...

As a ten year old child, it is very possible physical-ly, technical-ly to even be superior to those far older classmates. Heaven knows you likely have FAR more time available to you to be ABLE to practice than those with jobs, families, etc.

Like your elder classmates, you faced chal-lenges because of the training. Hopefully things were brought to your attention which as a young person you will make better choices BY that awareness the training continues to remind you about.

Mental-ly, emotional-ly because of your young age, there is a seriousness REQUIRED of that ranking IMO which nobody should have at that young an age [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG]!!! It is a wonderful thing you were likely far more mature than classmates of similar age. However, there is a seriousness of training that frankly there are adults I do not want to have that kind of honed intensity. I do not want you to miss out on being a CHILD, because you are too intense, too much an adult in a childs body... that is a factor I would be concerned about.

Is that ageism? (Do you have other friends, and do other things, or is this your sole "passion")

As for ego, as a 10yo child, what is it you will strive to become when you are 12, 15, 18 years old? What goal will be set for you? What goal do you set yourself? When you are 20, 25 where will your practice be exactly? If you continue, and are not distracted by puberty, life at that age you will have trained for a considerable time, yes?

What happens THEN?

<<Does this mean we should give them a womans black belt?

You make an excellent point. On THAT exact basis you must then have NO PROBLEM defending yourself against adult classmate attackers. You must take the adult test, WITH the adults Kiwi. How will you do in that test?

If you say, that is not fair, you are right. However, if you do not succeed against the adults, and do the test with them, much as you wish to be your "JR" rank is NOT THE SAME as theirs. Until you can take the adult test, WITH adult attackers, your skill may be excellent but it is NOT the adult ability... not yet.

(It is as much about learning to turn down the intensity as it is about turning it up appropriately. Part of the adult aspect IME)

<People are intimidated by my age.

There is a difference between being confused by a ranking and being intimidated by it. Perhaps you misperceive what they are feeling. You could not possibly "intimidate" me, as an adult reqardless of your skills. Impress me certainly, al-low me to admire your passion sure. But you could not on my worst day intimidate myself or any adult I know.

My only thought that might help given what you describe is as follows... you feel they do not "respect" your rank? Then be MATURE with them. Be polite, thankful for the opportunity to work with them... be friendly! Demonstrate your abilities. But do not become a ~strutting peakcock~ because of any ranking.

The higher you go, the more you realize there is STUFF to work on, and 1,000's who though never even having trained are far better skilled than any of us. Keep working harder... the only thing that matters is that you CONTINUE! Persist... That will iron out a great many things..... any many of them will be long gone, if you do.

Thoughts?

Jeff

[This message has been edited by Ronin1966 (edited 05-27-2004).]

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#119508 - 05/26/04 10:43 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Good Morning Again,

Quick follow-up.

You were clearly.... ~displeased~ by many of JohnL's comments. And while understandable think about this for a moment.

Physical-ly you can show a 40yo person, what exactly? You likely do not have the strength or body weight YET to give them a chal-lenge if they are being difficult and resisting a technique.

You are definately not a parent, what can you offer them in terms of integrating TKD practice into their responsibilities as parents, job holders, home owners, etc., etc.

There are experiences SOLELY because of your age, that you cannot possess, YET. You have not done the drunken stupid things which young "adults" do. You cannot have made the idiotic choices of boyfriend/girlfriend that your elders possess. A-l-l kinds of adult intensity & physical scuffles solely because of your age, which almost every adult in your classes possess, you do not YET.

This is one s-m-a-l-l grain of the type of things which John I believe is hinting at. Age is the teacher of experience. Nobody can teach well experiences they do not possess some level.

I apologize if this sounds harsh. It is not intended as such.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by Ronin1966 (edited 05-27-2004).]

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#119509 - 05/28/04 01:56 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
You don't sound harsh at all. You put lots of effort into your post to make it as unoffensive as possible while still getting your point across. I disagree with you on a few points, however I believe I have expressed my views within the dozens of other posts I have made about this issue.

I think i have mellowed considerably on the issue. I also have started to realise that maybe I was allowed to go for my black belt too soon. Physically in most ways I could keep up with the adults (that is how i did better then them at my black belt grading). My ability to copy others and mimic there techniques was actually better then most of the adults. However If i had been asked to fight anyone I had graded with I would've been beaten down in under a minute.

This topic has lasted a long time, and I find it funny that none of the arguments presented here actually made me change my mind. I think what has changed my opinion is my training in another style and also just learning more about martial arts.

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#119510 - 05/31/04 01:00 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Kiwi, I don't think that is unusual at all. "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink." This is true in all things. Although seeds of knowledge are planted everday, who is to know when they will grow.

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#119511 - 05/31/04 06:05 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Couldn't physically challenge a 40 year old when I was 14? BS.

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#119512 - 06/01/04 06:58 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Kiwi

You can't really change a persons mind for them--you can argue until your blue in the face--but you can't force someone to change their mind.

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#119513 - 06/01/04 07:05 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Joe

"Could not physically challenge a 40 year old when I was 14-BS."

Could you be more specfic?

Exactly how could a 14 year old kid "physically challenge" a 40 year old man.

A 14 year old boy has no-where the muscular strength, body mass etc of a full grown man.

I have seen some pretty out of shape 40 year olds (as well as plenty of 14-35 year olds)

Is that what you mean??

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#119514 - 06/01/04 02:16 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Uriel Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 764
Is it always about muscle? I'll talke from experience.

While growing up in the arts (I was about mid 20's at the time) I got to train with a kid that was indeed 14. He became one of my best sparring partners. He is also a multi-time national champion and athelete of the year.

It isn't the sport
It isn't the age.
It is the person.

You want to bring up "how much muscle a 14 year old can have..."

Two words.

Mark Henry.

How old was Tyson when he was beating everyone's ass in the Ama?

Some people are good...no matter what the age.

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#119515 - 06/01/04 03:41 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Uriel

Deep breath man.

Sorry, but the exception only proves the rule.

We have to deal with avgs here.

Like the avg college football team can stomp the avg high school team.

The avg college wrestler can crush the avg high school wrestler.

The avg 20 year old boxer should be able to KO the avg 14 year old.

Age and exerience, and yes size and muscle mass, count big--if you thik otherwise then explain to me why they have weight classes in ADULT boxering, wrestling, etc.

Ah, dude because all other things being EQUAL (and how often does THAT really happen?) a small person is at a signifcant dis-advantage vs the larger person.

That may not ALWAYS be the case--but thats the way to bet.

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#119516 - 06/01/04 04:23 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
1st Round KO Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 1497
Loc: New York City, USA
i have to ask the question: WHO CARES ABOUT BELTS AND GRADING ???

isn't training about personal ability and practicality ? i personally think that grading and belts are a disgrace to the spirit of martial arts. its a method of popularizing and institutionalizing a skill set which, by nature, can only be judged or truly 'graded' by its effectiveness against an opponent. while i support the growth of martial arts around the world, one needs to put the grading and belt system in perspective. the unfortunate truth is that the current integrity of a black belt is severely diminished. whether you admit it or not, the assembly line black belt production over the past decades has resulted in a system which only truly means anything once it can be validated on an individual basis and hence, the entire existence of belts and grading becomes a contradiction in nature.

i see gyms and even the WMTC attempting to create a grading system for muay thai in order to facilitate growth in the art and sport. this misguided effort can only result in a similar situation faced by graded martial today. in my opinion, the only real test of martial arts ability is ones ability to fight or at least spar hard and full contact. while i understand that some people need a motivation/ goal such as grading, we should always keep this system and its merit under tight scrutiny.


[This message has been edited by 1st Round KO (edited 06-01-2004).]

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#119517 - 06/07/04 10:03 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
shanghaivixen Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 4
Loc: China, Shanghai
I've been enjoying reading your debate, and wanted to delurk to post my two cents, for what they're worth from a novice (training four months, yellow belt).

As a general issue, not just in MA, I think teens, even preteens can be a lot more mature, more "grown up" than many adults. I recall my own teen years, being very mature and driven, and how frustrating it was being patronized by judgemental adults. Sure, most 15 year olds are dumb goofs, but so are most 50 year olds. Furthermore, kids and teens are perhaps better able to learn new sports, skills, languages than adults.

That said, one of my early teachers was in his late teens, I don't know what grade of black belt, and while he was an incredibly compitent Martial Artist he was an abysmal teacher. He didn't have the patience for beginners like me, especially older, female and foreign, and did more showing off than teaching. I almost quit TKD because of him, ultimately changed schools.

Arrogance is a pitfall of youth, especially if you are very, very good at something. Not to say young people can't be friendly and encouraging and patient. But there is also a competitiveness, a need to prove oneself, that contradicts the selflessness needed to teach well.

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#119518 - 06/08/04 09:42 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Shang

You still have to go by avgs here.

Sure you CAN find a 50 year old that is more immature than a 15 year old.

But chances are it would be easier to find an immature 15 year old.

As mentioned prior, speaking personally, I was no-where near as good at 15-16 as I thought I was.

I suspect that that the folks argueing on the side of the 13-15 year old crowd--if they keep training--will have a very different perspective on the question when they hit 25-35 +.

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#119519 - 05/04/05 12:32 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
TKDBruiser Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 13
There is a bottom line to this whole argument: at earlier ages you're just too immature to really take the art seriously. I happen to know a black belt who is only 10 years old, but she went out of her way one day to insist that the piece of cloth around her waist was her golden scepter to lord over me. Metaphors aside, I sparred her and showed her what she really lacked: the maturity and humility that a black belt possesses, and im not even a black belt yet. When kids are given a black belt they immediately gain an ego boost that crushes their humility and respect for other students, kind of like those 1337 dorks in online games. Students get their real black belt when they fully demonstrate the humility and respect as well as the knowledge and insight of the martial arts. McDojo's, for this reason, are worthless places to learn. You get nothing but nice moves, a black cloth around your waist, and an ego too big to fit into the overhead compartments of an airliner. There's none of the teaching of discipline and self-control.

rant aside, children always lack one thing that all adults have: life experience. The simple truth is they've been around the block a few more times than you. They have other knowledge that can bring to the art, and are more aware of things like their emotions and the way their bodies work in combat. A child is determined, yes, but more than half the time that's about it. Adults simply have more experience to draw upon than children, and this is why they deserve the real black belt. What you CAN do means nothing, but what you HAVE done is worth much more. Experience is the heart of the matter.


Edited by TKDBruiser (05/04/05 12:53 AM)

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#119520 - 05/04/05 05:40 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kiwi]
skeeterzirra Offline
Member

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Cedar Rapids, IA, USA
I ran across a situation that now seems appropriate to bring up. A school that I attended had a couple of black belts who were younger. I did not know their age, and assumed they were older than they were. One in particular was a little bigger than me, and I figured to be 16-19. He was twelve! In sparring, nobody held back and he held his own toe to toe against adults. His demeanor was young, but not THAT young. I look back and feel that he fully earned the respect that a black belt is due, but if an emergency situation came up, he was not experienced to handle it. I would not have gone against him as hard as I did if I had any idea that he was that much underage.

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#119521 - 05/07/05 09:22 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
dogma911 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 15
Argh. This annoys me so much. (Partially cause JohnL annoys me)
None of you have ever seen Kiwi train or teach or compete. You have no idea of the skill or understanding he has and to assume, purely on his age, that he cannot teach is just plain ignorant. You are also making assumptions about where he learned which again is silly because none of you have any idea about what his dojo is like.
A 15 year old cannot teach people to drive, not because its unsafe or because he'll endanger people but because someone somewhere had to decide the law, and made the assumption that people at that age aren't mature enough- which just isn't true. The maturity of people I know varies immmensley.
I think a younger asrtist can easily be as good if not a better teacher than an older one. A younger teacher can more easily relate to younger students- for those who are uncomfortable with his age there is his chief instructor-again silly-I know I would want to be taught by the more experienced one of the two.
To make assumptions on past experienced or incorrect and unfounded beliefs is wrong, and stereotyping- the fact is none of you should say whether or not he should be a teacher becuase none of oyu know him.
What is the point of having someone who has the same knowledge, understanding, skill as an older artist and then holding them back just because they aren't old enough yet-sounds like jealousy to me..

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#119522 - 05/07/05 05:52 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: dogma911]
TKDBruiser Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 13
Well gee, it really ticks ME off when I see little kids claiming they're better than people who are older, wiser, and all around better than them because of a little black belt. My own teacher has many times before made his own BB's remove their belts and wear a white belt during class for behaving disrespectfully. A real black belt would never have to do that, but apparently the conflict is between kids who think they know everything and people who know they don't. A black belt isn't just about talent. If that were the case then every school on earth would be a mcdojo.

-"What're you asking me for? I don't know @#$%!"
"But you're wise!"
"I'm wise enough to know that I don't know @#$%! Now go away!"

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#119523 - 05/11/05 10:53 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: TKDBruiser]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Can you point out where Kiwi has acted like "a kid who thinks he knows everything"? Seems to me he has been very polite and respectful throughout this thread, more so than some of the "older and wiser" folks. Some of you seem to suggest that, in earning a black belt, "life experience" should be the primary criterion, rather than one's ability to perform the curriculum and one's demeanor (i.e respect, honor, integrity, discipline, work ethic, etc.).

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#119524 - 05/11/05 01:15 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: dogma911]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA

Dogma

No, has nothing to do with Kiwi.

Kiwi may well be the exception that proves the rule. His skills merely confirm the validity of the rule--they don't alter it.

And "kids" are NOT adults, they lack the muscles or the size (and number of other things) to be the "equal" of an adult.

Are there adults that lack maturity? Of course. No question.

Are there adults that suck--of course.

But it still comes down to avgs, and on average a 13 year old black belt is NOT the equal of a 25 year old black belt.

People that argue that they are, well they sound to me like little kids that think because they wear a piece of colored cloth around their middle that they are equal of fully grown adults.

That is both sad and dangerous.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119525 - 05/11/05 01:28 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
pwrkikn Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Virginia
This is a difficult discussion. I have been in the same DoJang for 20 years. I earned my blackbelt when I was 8 or 9 as i started when I was 4.

I come from a korean background and my Sa Bum Nim was a hardcore instructor. So while I was a junior bb at age 9, I could NOT defeat the adult blackbelts or even the abult red belts.

This was primarity because of the lack of size and strength. However, my technique was almost perfect. I had clean, crisp, and fasat kicks and I was able to hold a sidekick straight up without using something for support.

Only the other adult blackbelts has as good technique as I did. My master would no allow one to test for blackbelt unles you had perfect technique in all the basics and if you could do the advanced kicks with at least one leg perfectly.

I am left handed so apparently that allowed me the ability to be good with both right and left. but anyways back to the point....

Seems to me that adults are the ones who need an attitude adjustment. Just because someone is under the age of 18 DOES NOT mean he can not teach others. My knowlege when I was 9 is the same as it is now. I knew all the forms, SD techniques, school pledge, had perfect form in all my stances and kicks.

In my dojang we didnt have insecure adults that felt they were being cheated because a 9 year old blackbelt was teaching them stances, forms, and kicks. Now when one turns 16, I do believe they need to gain a senior blackbelt. At that age they are becomming stronger and maturing to the level of an adult and they need to take the responcibility of that and incorperate into the Martial Art.

The difference between senior and junior is not ability, technique, or knowlege, it is power, strength, and maturity.

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#119526 - 05/11/05 03:18 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: pwrkikn]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
pwr

Here is the other side of the coin. Just makeing a point--seriously do not mean to offend you.

But if what you say is true--at age 8, after four years of training your technique was "almost perfect."
Then how much better are you NOW--after some "20" MORE years of practice?
If you were "almost perfect" THEN, you should be fan-freaking-tastic NOW.

I seriously question that an 8 year old kid can possibly have the same level of "ability, technique and knowloge" of their art as would a 22 year old.

Plus my personal belief is that if an 8 year old was taking and passing the same black belt test as was a 22 year old--then that calls into serious question the validity of the test itself.
And if the test was different due to age--then its NOT really the "same" the rank now is it?

Something I mentioned way back when this was a new topic--(check the dates on the first go around of this)---was, I was no-where as good as I thought I was when I was in my teens.
Or to put it another way, as an adult I should be BETTER than I was as a kid.
I am, and SHOULD BE much better NOW then THEN.

Where I started training, you had to be at least 18 to earn a adult shodan.
On the other hand where I started training, you had to be AT LEAST 16 years old to come to the adult class--and I and my buddy were the ONLY High School guys there.
Everyone else were college guys and full grown men.

Makes a serious difference.


Edited by cxt (05/11/05 05:27 PM)

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#119527 - 05/11/05 04:58 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: pwrkikn]
JohnL Offline
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Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
If I woalked into any dojo and someone suggested that the teaching was going to be done that night by a 9 year old, I'd leave and never go back. They'd have lost any credibility they had.

Let's stop the PC bull and get real.
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#119528 - 05/11/05 05:16 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: JohnL]
MN JC Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
I have to agree. Some kids are talented but I have yet to ever meet one that was ready to teach.

I would walk out and find a new place to go.
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--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

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#119529 - 05/11/05 05:26 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kiwi]
Foundation Offline
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Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 343
I believe 10 is too young to get a black belt.
I started taking judo when I was 7, and got my yellow belt half a year later and the first thing I had to do then is wait to become 9 to even take the test for orange, then wait 2 more years to become 11 for green, then 13 for blue (then I stopped, but it continued with 16 for brown and 18 for black)
I worked for 6 years to get to blue and I'm not complaining. I understand I was too young to be able to fully understand the concepts of what was being tought.

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#119530 - 05/11/05 11:13 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: Foundation]
Yattan Offline
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 78
Loc: Dallas, TX USA
What I want to know is how does an 8, 9, or 10 year old, (taking the same test as the adults), deal with multiple attackers full speed and the attacker with a weapon that is present in "most" BB tests? If they scale it down, then it's not the same test. If they don't scale it down, then that is one BAD A** 10 yr. old that I wouldn't want to mess with.

Just wonderin'

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#119531 - 05/12/05 05:19 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: Yattan]
TimBlack Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Kiwi, you train with ITF... But, since you were ten years old, you couldn't perform breaking. You couldn't for your 2nd Dan either. And HERE is the nub of the issue. You didn't have to achieve the same level of power in your kicks (and thus technique and form) as other blackbelts. This doesn't mean that you aren't necessarily as skilled as other practitioners, just that you've never proved it.

Now, I'm happy to see under 16's train. However, I also think that everyone should be able to achieve the same miniumum standards in certain areas. Therefore, if I compared an adult blackbelt, who has had to break in a variety of power tests, to a child blackbelt, who has not (I think you break polystyrene, don't you?), then I would have to say that the child hasn't earnt an adult blackbelt.

I'm not trying to disrespect you or young blackbelts in any way, but I just think we should remember that you haven't done the same test, so perhaps you shouldn't have the same belt.

Also, I really don't think you should be teaching. I agree with Sharon and JohnL that it is quite worrying that you don't seem to understand our arguments. We're not trying to put you down, and this isn't personal, we're just giving our opinions. And I think that those opinions happen to show a high degree of maturity.

Oh and one final thing: maturity isn't just not punching people for no reason. Maturity is also being patient, and what's so wrong with having to wait a few years before you grade to blue belt (in ITF) or above. Also, I think that they've changed the system in ITF so that under 12s can't attain Blue belt. You must have got in before this. Personally, I would make it under-13s, but this is a moot point.

Enjoy your training, but please get out of teaching TKD... you simply aren't old enough or mature enough, and the way you are arguing your own maturity is worrying because you are setting yourself up for a fall. Trust us, we are your seniors, and we are only trying to do what's best for you, just like parents:)
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#119532 - 05/12/05 09:49 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
pwrkikn Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

pwr

Here is the other side of the coin. Just makeing a point--seriously do not mean to offend you.

But if what you say is true--at age 8, after four years of training your technique was "almost perfect."
Then how much better are you NOW--after some "20" MORE years of practice?
If you were "almost perfect" THEN, you should be fan-freaking-tastic NOW.

I seriously question that an 8 year old kid can possibly have the same level of "ability, technique and knowloge" of their art as would a 22 year old.

Plus my personal belief is that if an 8 year old was taking and passing the same black belt test as was a 22 year old--then that calls into serious question the validity of the test itself.
And if the test was different due to age--then its NOT really the "same" the rank now is it?

Something I mentioned way back when this was a new topic--(check the dates on the first go around of this)---was, I was no-where as good as I thought I was when I was in my teens.
Or to put it another way, as an adult I should be BETTER than I was as a kid.
I am, and SHOULD BE much better NOW then THEN.

Where I started training, you had to be at least 18 to earn a adult shodan.
On the other hand where I started training, you had to be AT LEAST 16 years old to come to the adult class--and I and my buddy were the ONLY High School guys there.
Everyone else were college guys and full grown men.

Makes a serious difference.




As far as technique, not much different and that is what i am talling about. A well trained 10 year old can teach fundamentals. Granted as one gets older power increases, understanding of the whens and hows to use it inproves, but for fundemental movements, kick, stances, punches, a trained youngster is fine.

I started competeing in the adult divisions when i was 14 years old. I didnt win much when I was that young, but in 91-94 I was VA-State champ and won 93-94 Nationals. I was invited to the OTC both years and was the youngest competitor there. The ave age of the US TKD team is 35, then and now.

JohnL, are you assuming that I said a 10 year old can lead a class? I dont think I said that. All I said is that a well trained and diciplined 10 year old CAN teach people properly.

As far as blackbelts before 10... TKD, one needs YEARS of training to get to their full potencial. The younger they start the easier it will be for them to learn. It is like learning a language, the older you get the more work is needed to learn.

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#119533 - 05/12/05 10:16 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: pwrkikn]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA

PWR

Seems to me a guy that claimes they had "almost perfect" technique at 8 years of age could do better than a couple of State Championships and a National Championship---hey check your local phonebook--my bet is that its FULL of "National Champions."

(heck if you wish to get really nit-picky--I have number of State and Regional wins AND a "Natl Championship" win myself---so I know full well how meaningless such bragging really is)

What I am saying is that 8-10 year children have no business teaching anyone anything--an 8 year old is doing what in school?
Can an 8 year old teach a college or high school person about history? Or math? Or biology?
My guess would be no---so why would anyone think that an 8-10 year old can teach adults anything?

Maybe, MAYBE they can teach kids ALSO 8-10, but as a paying customer, I would be pretty hacked if I was shelling out big bucks to the head teacher to TEACH my kid, then see a ANOTHER little kid teaching--thta not what I paid my hard earned money for.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119534 - 05/12/05 10:46 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
pwrkikn Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Virginia
So you are telling me that child that is 8-10 years old who shows perfect technique is not able to teach adults because the whitebelt abult already has perfect technique?

OBVIOULSY the 8-10 year can not teach an adult anything leaned in school or college unless that adult never went. HOWEVER, A blackbelt who is 10 can teach a whitebelt or ANY belt a thing or 2 on technique.

It is sad to see that an adult is so prideful that he would think someone cant teach them something because of age. As for my exp in comp, i was not boasting, I was explaining.

This goes to all the folks who are against learning something from a child, you should act as an adult and realize "If his technique is good, he is worthy of teaching it." It seems obvious that either the kids in your dojangs are not up to par with those from korean ones.

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#119535 - 05/12/05 11:09 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: TimBlack]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Kiwi, you train with ITF... But, since you were ten years old, you couldn't perform breaking. You couldn't for your 2nd Dan either. And HERE is the nub of the issue. You didn't have to achieve the same level of power in your kicks (and thus technique and form) as other blackbelts. This doesn't mean that you aren't necessarily as skilled as other practitioners, just that you've never proved it.


ITF doesn't allow juniors to break? My sons and I train at an independent school, but have an ITF curriculum, and we were all required to perform breaks, not just for black belt exam, but for every intermediate test as well. My son was breaking at the age of 6. For his black belt test, at age 10, he had three breaks. In deference to his size, I think he was under 60 pounds at the time, the boards were a bit smaller than for the adult blackbelt test.... 8" wide rather than 12". Front punch, 1 board (adults do 2, but the juniors do only 1 because of increased risk of injury); flying side kick while jumping over obstacle, 2 boards; and 360 kick, 2 boards. The 360 kick is actually a 2nd degree black belt kick in our curriculum, and was substituted for breaking a brick with a hammerfist. Proportionate to his size, those breaks were every bit as difficult, and required the same proper execution of technique, as the breaks required by adults.

Quote:

Now, I'm happy to see under 16's train. However, I also think that everyone should be able to achieve the same miniumum standards in certain areas. Therefore, if I compared an adult blackbelt, who has had to break in a variety of power tests, to a child blackbelt, who has not (I think you break polystyrene, don't you?), then I would have to say that the child hasn't earnt an adult blackbelt.


Polystyrene? No reason to be sarcastic. Kiwi certainly hasn't given such an attitude as it is unworthy of someone who claims to be a black belt.

Quote:

I'm not trying to disrespect you or young blackbelts in any way, but I just think we should remember that you haven't done the same test, so perhaps you shouldn't have the same belt.


I haven't reread this entire thread for quite some time, but I don't recall Kiwi discussing what he had to do for his test. Perhaps you are assuming?

Quote:

Also, I really don't think you should be teaching. I agree with Sharon and JohnL that it is quite worrying that you don't seem to understand our arguments. We're not trying to put you down, and this isn't personal, we're just giving our opinions. And I think that those opinions happen to show a high degree of maturity.


I tend to agree that a 10 year old should not be teaching adult classes alone. But, why can they not be in a position of assisting the lead instructor in helping younger students. For example, showing a new student proper foot positions for four direction punch and Chon-Ji? My son has helped the other kids in his class for quite some time; but, always with the expectation that the lead instructor would go over the techniques with the younger student later in the class.

Quote:

Oh and one final thing: maturity isn't just not punching people for no reason. Maturity is also being patient, and what's so wrong with having to wait a few years before you grade to blue belt (in ITF) or above. Also, I think that they've changed the system in ITF so that under 12s can't attain Blue belt. You must have got in before this. Personally, I would make it under-13s, but this is a moot point.


I hadn't heard about this age change, perhaps because my school is an independent. However, I believe Gen. Choi himself indicated in his Encyclopedia that a black belt could be earned as young as 9.

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#119536 - 05/12/05 11:15 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: pwrkikn]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
PWR

No, I am saying that an 8 year old may have "perfect technique" FOR AN YEAR OLD.
Not "perfect technique"in the litteral sense.

Not sure that I would be slinging the word "prideful" around if I were you--after all you ARE the person that first claimed you had "perfect technique" then posted your "wins."

If anything it just proves JohnL and others point--you give a kid rank then they start copping an attitude about their skills.

Don't buy your reasoning, a 10 year old simply is not capable of the depth and understanding a 22 year old is. Subject matter is not the point--a child that young simply is NOT on the same level as an adult.

And as I mentioned earlier--did you at age 8 take the same black belt test as did fully grown adults?
If so then that calls in serious question the validity of the test itself.
If you did not--then your not "really" the same rank.

Like I also said, if I am paying my hard earned money to a master for teaching my child--I better be seeing THEM teach my child. I an NOT shelling out big bucks to a guy that has ANOTHER kid teaching MY kid.

Kids are simply NOT "on par" with adults.
They are not in any walk of life--why should the dojang be the ONLY place in the world where the reverse it true--that makes NO sense.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119537 - 05/12/05 11:30 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Kids are simply NOT "on par" with adults.
They are not in any walk of life--why should the dojang be the ONLY place in the world where the reverse it true--that makes NO sense.


When I started taking lessons, at the age of 40+, I certainly had no problem learning from any of the other black belts in the class, including one who was 13 years old at the time. His form and technique were outstanding, and I enjoyed learning from him. It seems to me that it is "pridefulness" that would cause one to say "You're 13 (or 12, or 10) and despite the fact that you have spent years learning your art, you have nothing that you can show me as a white belt because you don't have bills to pay and other such "adult" life experiences."

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#119538 - 05/12/05 12:16 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: pwrkikn]
Foundation Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 343
Someone of 10 years old won't be able to teach because they don't have the same amount of respect. If you'd put a 10 year old teach other 10 year olds, it'll be a very funny class, but not a lot of MA. Even if the 10 years old is mature enough to teach, they don't look serious enough. At my secondary school you can see that the younger the teachers are, the less they're in control of the class. I once knew a teacher that looked like she was 16 and she just couldn't teach, so she resorted on writing huge amounts of text on the blackboard and let us study all that.
(and in case you wonder I'm going to a private school, not to some ghetto school where we can fight at school (we'd be expelled) they just can't punish you for not paying attention if you don't bother the class)
I believe it'd be the same in MA, the 10 year old black belt would be teaching, while the others won't really paying attention (with a few exeptions).

Also must adult wouldn't want their children to follow classes with the 10 year old.

Maturity alone isn't enough, you need to look mature. If you're 6 and you look 22 (there's some disease that makes you look older) and you're mentally mature, nobody will care.

Also I don't think the 10 year old should get a black belt. Maybe something like a junior black belt, and at 16 you take the black belt exam and see if you pass.
Or you just don't allow them to take the tests if they're physically unable to do it, if they have to break 2 boards and they can't do it physically, then put an age restriction on the exam.
I heard from my former judo trainer that they put the age restriction because they had someone of like 8 or so got to the brown belt. He was very mature in the club and all, so they gave him the belts. But as the club learned afterwards he'd been bragging on his skills at school against some of the higher grades and insisted on some sort of duel. When he tried some kind of armbar on the higher grade, that higher grade resisted and broke the brown belt's arm.
He stopped judo after that because he scolded at the teacher about teaching him badly, while he just lacked power.
To me that clearly shows the self defense skills of a young child. He just fought another child (altough older) If he'd have fought an adult in a real self defense situation, he'd have been in troubles.
If he would have sticked to the basics he'd never broke his arm. He used perfectly valid techniques at a totally wrong time, it's not smart to try that with someone with twice your strength.
From then on the club didn't allow the children to advance beyond the point that they can applicate the techniques.

Of course the children that waited for their black belt and therefore trained for like 10 years instead of the adults that studied for about 4 years perfected their techniques more than the adults and won once their power came.

Conclusion, better get your basics right and train untill you'r e strong enough to take the real test, than to take weaker tests and have a false sense of security.

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#119539 - 05/12/05 12:24 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
IPCS

And it "seems to me"--to use your words, like your another person that is trying to justify their training at the hands of kid.

A 13 year can't legally drive and you think they have the maturity and skills to pass along a fighting art?

As I mentioned above--MORE THAN ONCE, you folks better start checking those "prideful" comments vs YOUR OWN POSTS.

Nothing more "prideful" than a kid whom considers himself the equal of an adult because of a length of colored cloth wrapped his/her waist.

Plus as a consumer I seriously question the merits of paying a master to teach me then be handed off to a kid.
Would you trust your expensive car to a 13 year old auto repir guy?
Would you hire a 13 year kid to work as a peer in your office?
Would you allow your OWN kids to take college level classes taught by a 13 year old?
Would you allow a 13 year to be your bodyguard?

(Heck what would you think if the LEO's in your town took there training from a 13 year old?)

Course not.
Nowhere else in life (except for video games) would an adult even consider a 8-13 kid as a peer--EXCEPT when it comes to potentially deadly fighting arts--and this makes sense to you?

Does the US Army allow 13 year olds to teach their fighters?

Is the USA TKD team coached by 13 year olds---is anyones?

(that would be a "no")

How do you explain that?


Edited by cxt (05/12/05 01:15 PM)

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#119540 - 05/12/05 12:51 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
I agree, Kids should be taught by adults. I have yet to meet a young black belt who was ready to teach. (I have been in MA's for over 28 years)

I have seen many good young kids and I agree there is nothing wrong with starting a child in MA's when they are young (if they are ready for it and can focus). But no matter how good a 10 year old is they are not mature enough to teach, do not have the experiances needed to teach, and do not understand how to teach.

Also, as CXT has said, When I hand my money over I am not paying to have a child teach my child. I am paying for the head instructor. The 10 year old may be ready to help out in class but, in my years I have seen very, very few children who have been ready.

Just my two cents, and remember I expect my $ to not go to the child...
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

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#119541 - 05/12/05 12:57 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MN JC]
Foundation Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 343
In my country it isn't legal to earn money below 16 years (using some holes in the law you can start at 15.) Except when you ask the king for permission to start at 14 (Yeah, right. Like that will ever happen But that's the law)
So all the money will go to the head instructor. If he's caught on employing an underage, he'll sure be bankrupt due to the fines and close the school.

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#119542 - 05/12/05 01:09 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: Foundation]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Its not really about the money. Although that would cheese me off...

It is about the fact that a child is not ready to teach.

I try and stay away from any and all personal attacks but PWR I seriously doubt if you were perfect when you were that young. As I said "I" doubt it, but I do have 28 years of experiance and in that time I have never seen anyone, other than a few real masters doing things perfectly.
_________________________
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#119543 - 05/12/05 02:13 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
pwrkikn Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Virginia
I think you both are misunderstanding "perfect." If you are serious with any martial art, after 4 years of hard training, you are telling me that you would not be able to execute a perfect round house? Have a perfect 90 degree horseback riding stance, have a flawless forward stance? IF you have that many years in serious training and you can not execute a perfect stance, you need to finds another MA.

I have 26 years of TKD training so dont think i am a little kid. I did tesch adults stances and kicks when I was 8-10 years old. Perhaps since TKD was an important thing in my family I had to work hard in and out of class, but there were other kids that were as good or even better than I was. It all depended on dedication.

I do not beieve a JUNIOR BB can lead a class of adults, but they can teach the techniques. How to kick correct, how to hold a correct fighting stance, how to preform a horseback rising stance. To say that a boy of 10 years old can not have the mind capasity to do those things correct AFTER years of training is a blind statement.

I do not have pride. I was told my basics were perfect. I can also say that Herbert Perez destroyed me at the OTC. I do not let my pride control my rational thought.

Just one questions to end all of this.....:
IF you went to a Dojang and watched the blackbelts and the 10 year old did the techniques as good as the adults, you wouldn't ask for advice? If you answer no, then I will leave ya to it.

Just remember I was NEVER talking about a child RUNNING a class in TKD. ALL i tried to say was, they can learn properly and if they are serious they can teach properly.

ALSO, take gymnastics, why are there more child olympians that adult? Gynnastics take a great level of seriousness and maturity to become good, why do you feel this can not be done in a martial art? Please dont say that it is because an 8 years can not defend himself against a 22 year old, I am TALKING proper technique not battle prowess.

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#119544 - 05/12/05 02:35 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: pwrkikn]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
PWR,

Please accept this in the way it is intended. I do not have a "misunderstanding" with perfect. I may (and probally do) have a differant definition than you. (You telling myself and CXT that we misunderstand and you are correct is the reason people are calling you prideful.)
I do have a question for you though, if you do not mind, if you perfected your art when you were only in it for four years what have you done for the other time you have spent in it?

As I have said it is my opinion that a child is not ready to teach, maybe be an assistant, but not teach. As I said my opinion (and that of many people I know and have worked with.) You of course are entitled to your opinion. As that is what it is, yours.

To answer your question, if I went to a Dojang and saw all of the 10 and unders performing as well as adults, in the same belt rankings, I would be impressed by the instruction. I would think that many people would be able to learn from an instructor who could get that many children to focus so well.

Please do not use the gymnast example you have used. It is flawed, we are talking about teaching, and to my knowledge there are no gymanstic coaches who are 10 years old.

I am glad for you that TKD was so important for you and your family. I would have to say that MA's are very important for my family. As I said I have been in MA's for 28 years, all four of my children have been in MA's since they turned 5, and my wife has been in for 15 years. So it is nice to see that it is also important in your family.

Please remember, we all have our opinions, and although we always belive in ours, we all have the right to not belive in some one elses.
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

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#119545 - 05/12/05 02:45 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: pwrkikn]
Foundation Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 343
Quote:

ALSO, take gymnastics, why are there more child olympians that adult? Gynnastics take a great level of seriousness and maturity to become good, why do you feel this can not be done in a martial art? Please dont say that it is because an 8 years can not defend himself against a 22 year old, I am TALKING proper technique not battle prowess.




I believe being able to defend yourself is a part of your rank in MA, if you're saying children don't need to do the same tests, then you can as well let women do easier tests. Or maybe even better, they can measure your length and mass, and create an exam fit for that.

About gymnastics, the girls are about 14 years old as far as I know, not 10, that's 40% more quite a big difference. Considering the men division in gymnastics, I never saw a boy competing, they're all 16+ (or they look VERY mature for their age)

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#119546 - 05/12/05 02:46 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: pwrkikn]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
PWR

Now your just reaching--gymnastics is judged on a SUBJECTIVE level there is little or nothing a teen gymnast can do that a college age gymnast can't--PLUS IN THE MENS DIV YOU SEE NO TEENS AT ALL--THEY ARE ALL ADULT MEN.

Chew on THAT for a bit then get back to me with why that could be.

No, after 25+ years of training I cannot consistntly throw a "perfect" roundhouse--an EFFECTIVE roundhouse you bet--but "perfect" very seldom.
Kinda why its called "perfect."

And I seriously doubt that you have a "flawless" front stance--few people are actually "flawless" and the ones that CLAIM such skills usually are anything but.

No, a blind statement is YOUR, to quote "a 10 year old boy with years of training."
Sorry, but if by "years of training" you mean training he got when he was 5 years old--that simply does not impress me.
Nor should it impress you---not if your being rational.

Like I asked another guy do you see 8-13 old kids COACHING the Olympic TKD team?
Is a 8-13 old kid drilling the Olympic TKD team on its stances?
In its kicks?
In anything?

Why not???


Edited by cxt (05/12/05 02:52 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119547 - 05/12/05 03:00 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MN JC]
pwrkikn Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Virginia
Quote:

I do have a question for you though, if you do not mind, if you perfected your art when you were only in it for four years what have you done for the other time you have spent in it?




Please do not think this is prideful statements. I competed in tourneys here in the US and in korea. Won some lost most. I travelled with the Korean Tiger Team and in 1994 help my master direct the junior olympics in virginia. Unfortunatly 2 years after that i bronk me knee in demo practice and had to take a few years off from the compitition. a few years off set me way back and now I am fully healed and training to compete again.

Yes the gymnastics was a stoopid example. I apologize. I fear this has turned pointless. Yes, junior bb tests are different than adults, but technique is tested the same.

I say a waste because we all have our own thoughts and experiences. I am sorry if you all think I was boasting by listing my accomplishments, I felt it was important to list them for credibility. Anyways I am done with this subject and hopefully there will be more threads to which we can talk on.

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#119548 - 05/12/05 08:29 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPCS

And it "seems to me"--to use your words, like your another person that is trying to justify their training at the hands of kid.

A 13 year can't legally drive and you think they have the maturity and skills to pass along a fighting art?

As I mentioned above--MORE THAN ONCE, you folks better start checking those "prideful" comments vs YOUR OWN POSTS.

Nothing more "prideful" than a kid whom considers himself the equal of an adult because of a length of colored cloth wrapped his/her waist.

Plus as a consumer I seriously question the merits of paying a master to teach me then be handed off to a kid.
Would you trust your expensive car to a 13 year old auto repir guy?
Would you hire a 13 year kid to work as a peer in your office?
Would you allow your OWN kids to take college level classes taught by a 13 year old?
Would you allow a 13 year to be your bodyguard?

(Heck what would you think if the LEO's in your town took there training from a 13 year old?)

Course not.
Nowhere else in life (except for video games) would an adult even consider a 8-13 kid as a peer--EXCEPT when it comes to potentially deadly fighting arts--and this makes sense to you?

Does the US Army allow 13 year olds to teach their fighters?

Is the USA TKD team coached by 13 year olds---is anyones?

(that would be a "no")

How do you explain that?


If you will reread my posts, I agree that juniors should not be running adult classes by themselves. I fail to see though, how, when I was a 40 year old white belt, I could not learn a basic walking stance from a 13 year old who had been taking lessons for 7 years. It makes absolutely no sense to say that just because the person is young, there is nothing they have to offer. In our classes, the head instructor, a 6th dan, trained under GM Van Binh, occasionally asks the black belts (in 30+ years of the school, my son is the only one ever awarded a black belt at age 10), to help lower ranked students with katas, etc. For what little it may be worth to you, the head instructor always goes back and reviews the material afterwards.

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#119549 - 05/12/05 08:38 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: pwrkikn]
Crazy_Eyes Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/05
Posts: 65
Loc: British Columbia Canada
I personally think bb tests are only different for very young kids (preteen) I'm 16, and I have my 2nd degree blackbelt, I've been training for almost 9 years now. I was tested with the adults for my 2nd degree, and I've fought in adult divisions on occasion as well....I'm also 6 foot 3 and 195 lbs, just as big if not bigger than most adults, should I be treated any differently on my tests than someone of equal size? If someone is the same size and build as me but 20 years older, (assuming same amount of training)Is there really a difference? Just my thoughts. So why couldn't I instruct class? If I have the same knowledge of my art as someone older? Whats the difference if the technique is learned from me...compared to an adult? I dont see one


Edited by Crazy_Eyes (05/12/05 08:42 PM)
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#119550 - 05/13/05 11:11 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: Crazy_Eyes]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Do you truly have the same knowlege? Or are you proficient in what you do? This is a huge differance?

I know several young 2nd BB's who are excellant teachers. They are all in the 18-23 age range.

I feel that maturity in teaching is a huge thing. Also, younger people tend to know how to do things a certain way, but not why. The why is just as important as how.

Once again, that is my feeling. I did not teach until I was 19 (that was after 7 years of training) and now look back feel that I was not prepared as well as I should have been to teach. But that is also part of the teaching process, learning how to teach. I feel that as people get older they have gained an understanding of how to teach, this comes from life, not just the arts.
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#119551 - 05/13/05 12:12 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
IPC

Because a 13 kid can't drive a car, much less "teach" a potentially dangerous fighting art.

Your also now parseing your answer as to "teaching a walking stance."

So:

A-You, yourself, are putting limits as to what YOU feel a kid should be teaching or not.
So we don't really differ in terms of stance on this topic, we only differ as to the level of acceptable degree a kid can teach.

B-More germaine to the issue--if as you say, the 13 year has been training for "7 years" then he was 6 when he started---dude A SIX YEAR OLD!!! What can a six year old "really" be learning??

I'll ask AGAIN, did your 10 year old son take the exact same Black Belt test as does a fully grwon adult?
If they did then the test is so easy even a 10 year old kid could pass it and if its NOT then clearly your teacher considers the ranks and thus the skills and knowloge levels to be demonstatatble "different" enough to warrent a seperate test.
So go argue with him/her.

In the interest of being clear lets look at it like this.

Say you wish to have your kitchen remodeled.
You pay your hard earned money to a contractor to do the work.
You come in one day and you see a 13 year kid tearing out you water lines, setting up dry wall and running you new electical.
You ask whats going on and the contractor tells you that kid have been learning the trade since he was 6 years old. And he feels that the 13 year is fully qualified to rebuild your kitchen.

Do you let him keep working or do you stop him?

Seriously doubt you would say "well he has probably learned alot about what he was doing, he started when he was six after all--so what if he is only 13 now."

Be honest. Most folks would fire the guy.

Why would a person take greater pains in terms of demanding quality workers for their kitchen than they would demand for quality teachers of their martial arts??????

Think about what you would do if things went really bad later---most folks would sue the contractor for using a kid.
Since were talking about MA here, the price paid for substandard training might well be your life.

Would you "really" take such a chance?


Edited by cxt (05/13/05 02:16 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119552 - 05/14/05 02:32 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
So once again, we are back to pride. Solely because someone is too young, you believe there is absolutely NOTHING that you can learn from them. Regardless of how many hundreds or thousands of times they have performed a technique, they are totally incompetent to try to share what they have learned. I am not parsing. I was using a simple example. An advanced student, assisting a beginner, with review by the head instructor later in the class, and you still insist that it is completely inappropriate, that you'd quit and demand your money back. Again, reread my posts. I have not said that I believe a 10 year old should run an adult class. But, if you have a class of 30 students, and the head instructor is taking 10 minutes of class time to go over something with the red belts, why can he not assign his black belts (regardless of age) to go over Chon Ji, or Dan Gun, or Do San, or Won Hyo, or even something as simple as a knife hand block, with separate groups of lower ranked students. Again, with review by the head instructor later in the class. In the black belt exam, the kata portion of the test is EXACTLY the same whether the student is 10, or 50... except that the 50 year old might get by with, for example, lower kicks. I know our instructor was much harder on my 10 year old on kata (who took the test the first time at 9 years, 11 months, but failed) than he was on my 16 year old, or on me.

What can a six year old be learning? So, you're another one of those fellas who thinks that 6 year olds are doing nothing but "mucking around in funny pajamas." Swell. My son had aced his yellow stripe and yellow belt exams before his 7th birthday. He attended class six days a week, and helped out with clean up, etc. after his classes. He attended every school tournament offered, and a couple of outside tournaments that year, and participated in a demo at a community rec center in an effort to recruit new students. During the demo, two older students, also yellow belts, but a couple years older and quite a bit bigger, tried several times to break a 6" wide board with a front kick. When they were unable to do it, my son volunteered and did it on his first try. Lots of kids don't learn a lot at that age. Most of them don't have the focus and attention span needed to excel at a martial art. Heck, I'm a little league coach on my son's team of 11-12 year olds, and most of them don't have what it takes. Fortunately, my son was not one of those. He learned katas much faster than me, and picked up techniques faster also, probably because a 7, 8, 9 or 10 year old has a lot less fear when performing aerial techniques than a slightly overweight 45 year old with bad knees.

You ask about the blackbelt tests. I think I've explained the differences in the breaks he had to perform above. The only other difference was that I had to spar an adult who was about my size, but about 15 years younger and a construction worker... (I'm a pencil pushing desk jockey), and participate in two outside tournaments. He had to spar another junior, who was two years older and 20 pounds heavier, and he had to participate in four outside tournaments chosen by the instructor - all state level competition. Otherwise, the tests were the same. Demonstration of techniques. Katas, Chon Ji through Choong Moo. Demonstration of self-defenses/one steps/takedowns with a partner.

We've spent the last 6 years helping each other, working together. He's helped me with stuff. I've helped him. It's been a great experience for both of us. And, as far as your concern about parents taking their kids and walking out when the head instructor asks my son to help their kids while the head instructor works with others... never happens. What would those kids be doing if Derek wasn't working with them? My guess... they'd be standing around picking their noses. The parents like it when Derek helps their kids. It's a great demonstration to the other kids of focus, discipline, and respect. It gives their kids something to shoot for. The kids all look up to him, even the ones who are older, but still of lower rank. And, the parents recognize his abilities as well. Take off all their belts and let them work out for a while, and any idiot off the street could pick out the one who is a black belt. And, once again, if you've missed it the seven previous times I've said it... THE HEAD INSTRUCTOR GOES OVER EVERYTHING WITH THE KIDS LATER IN THE CLASS... both to make sure the kids are getting it right AND to test how well Derek is doing at showing the other kids stuff.

You rankle every time someone suggests you are being "prideful". But what else can it be? Here's a definition... "feeling of superiority; a haughty attitude shown by people who believe, often unjustifiably, that they are better than others." If I had gone into my classes, as a 40+ year old, thinking that the four or five 13 to 18 year old black belts in the class had nothing they could show me, I would expect to be called "prideful". Every one of those kids knew their katas, they knew the techniques, and for several years, when we put the gloves on, every one of them, yes, even the 13 year old, could easily have handed me my a$$.

So, I'm curious, just how old does someone have to be before he's qualified to show you something? I'm a 47 year old 1st Dan, slowly but steadily approaching 2nd, who has been in the arts now for 6 1/2 years. That 13 year old I've been talking about is now 18, has been taking lessons for 12 years, and ready to test for 3rd Dan. Are you suggesting that he would be less competent to teach you a technique? I'll guarantee you that he's a much more capable martial artist. His techniques are crisper and cleaner, his katas are better, and he's so fast he can still plant a roundhouse in my ear before I've even thought about blocking it.

You can go on believing that the only ones who can show you anything are 80 year old Korean Masters. I'll continue trying to learn something from everyone I meet and from every experience I have. I'm not about to discount something from someone who has been in the arts for 12 years, solely because he's only 18 and hasn't yet had to worry about mortgages, and insurance, and taxes, and utility bills. I'll let prideful folks do that.

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#119553 - 05/14/05 06:24 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kiwi]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I would like to take this oppurtunity to thank IPC and cxt for the very interesting debate. Although I am leaning towards cxt's side of the argument, IPC has brought up some very good points.

Let's try to keep it from getting personal, and keep up this very interesting discusson.
_________________________
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#119554 - 05/16/05 08:06 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
IPC

I notice that you don't answer my question.
Lot of tap dancing but no real answer.

So would you allow a 13 year old kid to re-model, re-wire and re-plumb your kitchen or not?
Would you allow a 13 old to fix your cars engine?
Would you allow a 13 year to work in your office as a peer?
Would you allow a 13 year old to strap on a gun and work as cop?

Course not. Not if your being honest.

But you would allow a 13 year to teach you and others a potential dangerous fighting art.
That makes little rational sense

Like I said before. You want a example of "prideful" behavior.
Look no further than your post.
Where YOU keep demanding that folks recognize the martial skills of a kid who can't even drive.
That my friend is a perfect example of "prideful."
A child wearing a piece of colored cloth around his middle is supposed to be given respect by adults.
Thats nothing BUT "prideful."

And you ARE parseing.
You are very narrowly defining the role the child plays in teaching class, the specifc things that he can teach and to whom under specifc supervison.
Thats means even YOU don't feel that the 13 year old is as fully capable as an adult--thus you are siding with me.

I would also like to point out that you have ALSO failed to address my other posit--that a black belt test that is the same for a 10-13 year old OR a 25-30 year old does not sound like much of a test at all.
And if it is different then please explain WHY your master feels that the test should not be the same.
Could it be that your master ALSO feels that 13 year is different than a adult in terms of what they are capable of?
Perhaps you should be taking this up with your teacher.
Either about the "easy" black belt test OR why he feels that children should be treated differently than adults.

Oh, BTW, if you read thu your last post you will find that what you are now saying that not every child can handle it but "your" boy can.

A-I am sure that most parents feel that way when it comes to our kids. We all feel that they are "better" or more "mature" or more "advanced" than their peers.
That does not make it accurate.

B-Like I mentioned MULTIPLE times, you kinda have go by avgs here.
And exception--such as Kiwi or your boy just proves the rule.

C-I would ask that you re-examine your position on "pridful."
You speak quite well of your own sons abilties and maturity while at the same time kinda running down other folks kids.
I'm sure that was NOT your intention---but you did it all the same.
I see that as VERY "prideful."

Lets try and bring this into focus. You shoot competavily do you not?
How many 13 year olds do you know that can compete successfully with adults?
How many 13 year old shooting coachs/teachers do you know?


Edited by cxt (05/16/05 10:44 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119555 - 05/16/05 10:42 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPC

I notice that you don't answer my question.
Lot of tap dancing but no real answer.


You can ask my wife for confirmation if you need to, but, I don't dance.

Quote:

So would you allow a 13 year old kid to re-model, re-wire and re-plumb your kitchen or not?
Would you allow a 13 old to fix your cars engine?
Would you allow a 13 year to work in your office as a peer?
Would you allow a 13 year old to strap on a gun and work as cop?

Course not. Not if your being honest.


I don't know. When my cousins were growing up on the farm, they were constantly working on the family's vehicles and farm equipment. At 13, I'm quite sure I would have had no problem at all letting them do a tune up on my car. Hey, at 17, I removed the engine from my car, completely tore it down, rebuilt it, and reinstalled it. And I was a mere suburbanite... At 13, my stepson was outshooting police officers at local pistol matches. Doesn't mean he could be a cop, as they usually are required to have a college degree to get a job these days. Wiring, plumbing, etc., if the kid's got YEARS of prior experience and has proven himself competent and has good references, why not? I let one of my stepson's friends do some wiring at my house a couple days ago. He's 19 and has about 3 months of experience. Work as a peer? I've heard of kids who get through school, college, advanced degrees, etc. at extraordinary rates. If the kid has a degree from a university, and has passed the bar exam, then sure...

Quote:

But you would allow a 13 year to teach you and others a potential dangerous fighting art.
That makes little rational sense


There is a huge difference, in that a 13 year old CAN have many years of experience in a martial art by the time he is 13. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that a 13 year old can have ANY experience in these other lines of work that you are questioning. We do have child labor laws that prohibit them from having that kind of experience.

Quote:

Like I said before. You want a example of "prideful" behavior.
Look no further than your post.
Where YOU keep demanding that folks recognize the martial skills of a kid who can't even drive.
That my friend is a perfect example of "prideful."
A child wearing a piece of colored cloth around his middle is supposed to be given respect by adults.
Thats nothing BUT "prideful."


What, exactly, does driving have to do with knowing how to properly execute martial arts techniques? And please explain exactly how I am being "prideful" by giving respect to people who have shown the dedication, hard work and perseverence required to earn a black belt? That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of pridefulness. Please cross-reference to the definition of "Prideful" that I cited earlier: "feeling of superiority; a haughty attitude shown by people who believe, often unjustifiably, that they are better than others." My giving respect to people who have worked so hard and accomplished so much is not in any way an indication that I feel I am "better than others."

Quote:

And you ARE parseing.


I'm a lawyer. That's my job.

Quote:

You are very narrowly defining the role the child plays in teaching class, the specifc things that he can teach and to whom under specifc supervison.
Thats means even YOU don't feel that the 13 year old is as fully capable as an adult--thus you are siding with me.


I'm siding with you, to a point. I said in one of my first posts that I didn't think a 10 year old should be teaching an adult class alone. But, your posts seem to take it further, i.e. that you seem to think that they shouldn't be teaching at all, and are undeserving of even a modicum of respect from adults, regardless of the adult's rank. I find THAT to be the very definition of pridefulness. THAT is "a haughty attitude shown by people who believe that they are better than others."

Quote:

I would also like to point out that you have ALSO failed to address my other posit--that a black belt test that is the same for a 10-13 year old OR a 25-30 year old does not sound like much of a test at all.
And if it is different then please explain WHY your master feels that the test should not be the same.
Could it be that your master ALSO feels that 13 year is different than a adult in terms of what they are capable of?




I did clearly address this. Our tests were given per guidelines set forth by Gen. Choi in his Encyclopedias, and as given by GM Van Binh (who is the Chairman of ITF's Masters Promotion Committee) to our teacher. Once again, the only real differences between the junior's test and the adult's test are the competitions required prior to testing (junior's have to do more), the juniors spar against other juniors, whereas the adults spar against adults, and there are minor differences in the breaking section of the test, i.e. my son's boards were 8"X12"X1", whereas the adults break 12"X12"X1" wide. His front punch break was only 1 board. Adults do 2 boards. This is solely in deference to the greater risk of injury to a junior because the bones in his hands aren't fully developed yet. Both of his kick breaks were two boards. One was a flying sidekick, jumping over an obstacle. I've got a picture of that one on my desk. Performed at the sternum level (my son's head level) of a 6'4" 2nd degree black belt who was holding the boards. His second 2 board break was a 360 kick (ordinarily a technique tested at the 2nd degree BB exam), done in lieu of a hammerfist brick break. Again this was due to risk of injury to the developing bones in his hand. As I said earlier, proportionate to his size, these breaks were every bit as hard as the breaks performed by adults. Keep in mind, he was 1/3 the size of an adult, but breaking boards that were 2/3 the size. In fact, I suspect that that 360 kick was much more technically difficult than my hammerfist/brick break. Perhaps you'd like to point out the parts of my statement that need clarification. If you've got a serious problem with the testing methods and with recognizing and respecting younger black belts, perhaps your beef should be with Gen. Choi. He's the one who established the testing methodology, and he's the one who said that black belts could be earned as young as 9.

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#119556 - 05/16/05 10:55 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
IPC

Again, your parseing. Thats may be your job--but if so I would hope that your better in court than here

You list ONE--just ONE example of 19 year old allowed to re-wire your house.
Correct me if I am wrong--but were we taking about 19 year olds?
That would be a no.
So you dodged the question.
And I'm calling "bullshit" on this one. There is no way in heck you would trust your expensive re-modleing job to a 13 year old kid.
You can claim it all you like, but you and I both know you would never EVER allow it.
And even if YOU would be crazy enough to do so--NO-ONE else would.
No point in having a discussion of folks are not going to do so honestly.

I should also point out that your correct---most jobs and most unions have child labor laws that insist that a child is NOT ALLOWED to do certian things or work certian hours.
That in order to work or apprentice a person has to be "X" years old.
Or in the case of cop has to be a college grad.
Now why on earth would folks make such rules--have they not talked to you?
Have you not explained that 13 year old is as capable as an adult?
What did they tell yo when you tried to explain it?
I notice that you have no problem with such rules--AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT APPLY TO MARTIAL ARTS.
Again, irrational.

But "years of experience" by the time someone is 13 means that what your "really" talking about training that got when they were EVERN younger--dude if folks have a problem with a 13 year teaching, I would suspect that folks would are also NOT buying that "logic" either.

Like I keep saying and you keep ignoreing----kids are NOT adults and in remarkable few activities are children considerd the equal of adults and capable of teaching.
Yet you keep insisting that MA must be somehow different.
Its not, and your protestations aside 10-13 kids should not be treaching.
At least you should not be paying for it.

And also like I said, if a 10-13 child is taking SAME test as a 25-30 year old adult--the the test itself must be weak and easy to pass.
If the critieria is that open. The you seriously call into question the validity of the test itself.


Edited by cxt (05/16/05 11:09 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119557 - 05/16/05 11:03 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Oh, BTW, if you read thu your last post you will find that what you are now saying that not every child can handle it but "your" boy can.

A-I am sure that most parents feel that way when it comes to our kids. We all feel that they are "better" or more "mature" or more "advanced" than their peers.
That does not make it accurate.

B-Like I mentioned MULTIPLE times, you kinda have go by avgs here.
And exception--such as Kiwi or your boy just proves the rule.

C-I would ask that you re-examine your position on "pridful."
You speak quite well of your own sons abilties and maturity while at the same time kinda running down other folks kids.
I'm sure that was NOT your intention---but you did it all the same.
I see that as "prideful."


There is a difference between being "proud" (as in respecting or admiring or thinking highly) of someone for their accomplishments and being "prideful" which is the failure to respect the accomplishments of others due to one's belief that he is better than them.

First, you can't "go by averages," as simply being "average" is not going to get you a black belt, at least not at our school. Generally speaking, an "average student" drops out somewhere between yellow belt and green belt. We're not discussing average students. We're discussing the exceptional ones. My son happens to be the first 10 year old ever to have earned a black belt from our instructor (who has been teaching since the '70's), and there has only been one other kid younger than 13 to receive one. This is not, in my self-serving opinion, a "black belt factory" or "McDojo".

Second, I'm not "running down" other kids. The kids I was talking about are just acting like kids. Children mature and develop at different rates. My son matured a little faster because his role models were brothers who were 7 and 10 when he was born. He based his behaviors on them, not on other little kids. I'm not breaking new ground here. The other parents comment on it as well. One of the guys, whose son just turned 12, says his boy would be "a great 9 year old." He hasn't quite gotten over the rambunctiousness of that age and isn't quite as serious as some of the other kids. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Just observing.

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#119558 - 05/16/05 11:14 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
IPC

Sorry, but you absoulty HAVE to go by avgs.
Cause as you and Kiwi have pointed out the alternative is pretty much everyone saying "not me" or "not my kid."
When YOU HAVE ALREADY POINTED OUT THAT MOST KIDS CAN'T HANDLE TEACHING.

Your concept would allow ANY kid to teach.

And yes you are "running down" other folks kids---you say it yourself--you say:

"The kids I am talking about are acting just like kids"

Yes, everyone BUT "your" kid.

So you clearly wish to label and treat OTHER folks kids as KIDS--but wish an EXCEPTION to made for YOUR child.

I notice that again you fail to answer my direct questions pertaining to how many 10-13 kids are shooting coachs/teachers.


Edited by cxt (05/16/05 11:17 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119559 - 05/16/05 11:21 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Like I keep saying and you keep ignoreing----kids are NOT adults and in remarkable few activities are children considerd the equal of adults and capable of teaching.
Yet you keep insisting that MA must be somehow different.
Its not, and your protestations aside 10-13 kids should not be treaching.


MA IS different. MA is one of the few things where a 13 year old can have 7 years of experience, and can show things to others, including adults, who have no, or little experience. Once again, I'm not arguing that a 13 year old should be running his own school. But, for whatever reason, you seem to keep arguing that, regardless of experience, skill, etc., he shouldn't be allowed to show ANYBODY ANYTHING.

Quote:

And also like I said, if a 10-13 child is taking SAME test as a 25-30 year old adult--the the test itself must be weak and easy to pass.
Not exactly something I would be bragging about passing.




Like I said before, the test is as prescribed by Gen. Choi, and as passed down to my instructor by GM Van Binh, the Chairman of ITF's Masters Promotion Committee. If those gentlemen are not competent to determine what should be involved in a TKD Black Belt Test, I'm not sure who is. You're welcome to your opinion, but, as regards TKD, I'll take Gen. Choi's over yours (or anyone else's - so don't feel like I'm trying to insult you here) every time.

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#119560 - 05/16/05 11:21 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kiwi]
Xavier Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 52
Loc: Atlanta,Georgia
I undertand your situation because in my dojo my little brother takes the same class as i do but he has no understanding of what martial arts mean but he is still sllowed to progress with me but i have a feeling that pretty soon my master will stop letting him pass with his horrible techniques and childess attitude(he dosn't listen to anybody)

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#119561 - 05/16/05 11:35 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
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IPC

So we AGAIN dodge the direct questions---like I said before, no point in having a disccsuion at all if folks can't be honest and forthright about it.

So MA--despite being a potential dangerous fighting art is different than boxing, or wrestling or shooting, or mens gymnastics, or running or tennies or golf or cycleing, or pretty much ANY physical activity?
Sorry bro, not buying it--you have failed to make a case for WHY its so different.

See, I don't consider it such nor does anyone else--certainly the good folks who make the rules about constrcution work and childern feel the same.
Clearly there is fundamental difference between "your" version of reality and the rest of "us."

In "my" version kids are kids and should be treated as such.


If the tests for 10-13 child are truly the same as the test for an 25-30 year old adult--and I seriously doubt that they are.
Either specifcally OR in how the masters "grades" the test in terms of level of expectation--then I weep for your dojang.

This kind of thing is EXACTLY why TKD is no longer taken seriously by people, why its the butt of jokes and why its called "kiddie-karate" by the vulger, and why so many people give TKD folks a hard time.
In great part its because we have people running around trying to convience folks that 10-13 kids are the equal of adults.


Edited by cxt (05/16/05 11:38 AM)
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#119562 - 05/16/05 11:36 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
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Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPC

Sorry, but you absoulty HAVE to go by avgs.


No, you absolutely CAN'T go by averages. It takes a certain amount of discipline, sacrifice, perseverence, etc., to earn a black belt. Maybe one in 5,000 kids in the martial arts takes it that far. Maybe, it's one in 10,000, who knows... Kids who earn it are exceptional. It's not something that is simply handed out as a reward for attendance, at least not at our school. It requires a showing of skill, technique, dedication, focus, and a bit of intestinal fortitude. Not every kid has those things at 10, or 12, or 13. Some adults don't have them either. I don't see why you want to insist on "average" when we are discussing "exceptional," other than the fact that "average" bolsters your argument. Perhaps Mozart shouldn't have been writing opera at 7. The world would have been a richer place if he'd stuck to picking his nose and flinging boogers at his sister.

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#119563 - 05/16/05 11:41 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
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IPC

And exactly how many Motzarts are there?

(we will ignore for the nonce that the very guy that likes to take other folks to task for being "prideful" just now linked his OWN kid to a genius like Motzart)

And since you brought it up, how many 10-13 are there that win music contests vs college age folks?
Don't they break the ages up on things like that?
Now why would they do that??????????

Sorry, retorical question--they break them up because kids--even exceptional ones simple can't comepte with other ecxceptional OLDER PEOPLE.

Its a question of maturity and physical development. A child lacks it, and adult has it.
Children can't compete head to head with OLDER KIDS let alone adults.
If they could they would NOT take care to seperate the age groups in music contests.


Edited by cxt (05/16/05 11:45 AM)
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#119564 - 05/16/05 11:59 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
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Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Perhaps they are broken up like that to account for the greater amount of experience the older students have. Perhaps they break things up into a greater number of categories so that more people have a chance to win.

Maturity? In attaining a black belt, one would expect a certain amount of maturity. Our instructor would never award one to someone who screwed around in class, didn't pay attention, didn't follow the rules, didn't remain focused, and generally just goofed around. There were other kids in my son's classes who were there as long as he was, and were still at blue belt when my son earned his black. Again, nothing wrong with that, just a recognition that different kids progress/mature/develop at different rates.

Physical Development? What exactly does that have to do with being able to show someone the appropriate technique for executing a knife hand block, a walking stance, or a kata? Are you suggesting that regardless of skill and technique, one should not get a black belt until one can compete against adults? How far are you willing to take this argument? Assuming that Mary Lou Retton were to test for a black belt... Would you deny it on the ground that she couldn't compete physically with Bob Sapp in a UFC match? Even among adults, MA matches have various classes for age/weight/sex, etc.

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#119565 - 05/16/05 12:27 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
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"perhaps they break them up to account for the greater amount of experience"

Could not agree more--very possible, just like an older student has MORE experiece than a kid.

Again, if as you say above "KIDS MATURE AT DIFFERENT RATES" then thats a pretty good arguement for why kids should not be teaching.
Of course "your" child is different--and if I ask 100 parents what do you think the chances are that most of them ALSO think "there" child is different as well?

On the physical development issue--your attempt to put words in my mouth aside.

A-YOUR THE ONE WHOM BROUGHT UP MUSIC--physical development in music is very relevent--of course your NOW trying to use the example from ONE as and example of ANOTHER--sloppy logic.

B-A 10-13 year is not physically capable of the level of techniqual skill as is an adult.
There bodies are different in terms of mass, strength, coordination, speed and power generation.
How can you expect a 10 year old to properly understand the mechanics of stance work on a guy 15 year older and perhaps 100 + lbs heavier?
How can they possibly explain it?
An adult has BEEN a child--they can relate their OWN experiences to help them learn.
A child has NEVER been a adult and thus has no expereince to draw upon to teach.
Please note the coachs of olympic champions ARE NOT CHILDREN.
They coach children BUT ARE NOT CHILDREN THEMSELVS.

Please note that I have asked you multiple times to tell the name of 10-13 year shooting coach/trainer.

Another serious issue would be to what extent a 10-13 year old truly understand what they teaching.
I find it hard to belive that 10-13 year can have as good a grasp of proper bio-mechanics, sport physology, and kinistetics as does an adult.
Since such thing require a college degree--I would guess that most folks feel the same.
A master should years of teaching and learning and traing AS AN ADULT to draw upon--the child has only a watered down class and watered down training.

(and before you get all upset a the use the term "watered down" it HAS TO BE 10-13 year old kids lack the physcial development to train as long or hard or as tough as an adult.
They lack the muscular or CV abilty to do so---why you don't have 10-13 older kids winning mararthons.)

No I would deny Mary Lou Retton on the grounds that she is a gymnast not a martial artist.
Since you brought it up--Mary Lou was NOT teaching when she was 13--she was training under the guidence of a qualified adult.
Thats why she won.

Like I said before, stuff like this very conversation is why folks (by abd large) no longer take TKD seriously.
Because people such as your self muster every bit of "logic" they can and try to justify a child being the equal of adult.

For those of us old enough to have kids or perhaps have younger brothers or sisters--we know what a 10-13 kid can handle and how mature they are etc.
To anyone that does has such experience your protestations ring hollow.


Edited by cxt (05/16/05 12:39 PM)
_________________________
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#119566 - 05/16/05 12:50 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by ipscshooter -

Quote:

Are you suggesting that regardless of skill and technique, one should not get a black belt until one can compete against adults? How far are you willing to take this argument? Assuming that Mary Lou Retton were to test for a black belt... Would you deny it on the ground that she couldn't compete physically with Bob Sapp in a UFC match? Even among adults, MA matches have various classes for age/weight/sex, etc.




That is unfortunately the crux of the McDojo argument. As recently as the 1960's, BB's were in fact awarded primarily due to fighting ability. There was tremendous contreversy regarding (then) 14 year old Benny (the jet) Urquidez earning his BB.

One of the principle factors is his recieving it was that he could beat most adults in sparring.

The fact that BB's are now awarded to people with little demonstrable fighting skill has everything to do with this. Ten year olds, while capable of learning quite a bit about MA, lack both the size and the essential life experience to really be held as any kind of fighting authority.

Forms? Basics? I suppose....but MA in the combat sense?

No sir.
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#119567 - 05/16/05 01:01 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
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Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPC

"perhaps they break them up to account for the greater amount of experinece"

Could not agree more--very possible, just like an older student has MORE experiece than a kid.


In life. Not necessarily in martial arts.

Quote:

Again, if as you say above "KIDS MATURE AT DIFFERNT RATES'" then thats a pretty good arguement for why kids should not be teaching.
Of course "your" child is different--and if ask 100 parents what do you think the chance are that most of them ALSO think "there" child is different as well?


Sure, everyone thinks their kid is special. But, some things are tested independently by third parties. i.e. teachers rate their progress in school, masters rate them in MA class, coaches decide who gets to bat first in the order and who gets to bat last, etc.

Quote:

On the physical development issue--your attempt to put words in my mouth aside.

A-YOUR THE ONE WHOM BROUGHT UP MUSIC--physical development in music is very relevent--of course your NOW trying to use the example from ONE as and example of ANOTHER--sloppy logic.

B-A 10-13 year is not physically capable of the level of techniqual skill as is an adult.
There bodies are different in terms of mass, strength, coordication, speed and power generation.




Technical skill has nothing to do with how big one is. Mass, strength, power generation, sure... an adult has the edge. But, coordination and speed, not necessarily. And, once they hit the growth spurt from puberty, I'm not giving the adults the edge in power generation either, as a lot of that comes from proper technique and speed.

Quote:

How can you expect a 10 year old to properly understand the mechanics of stance work on a guy 15 year older and perhaps 100 + lbs heavier?
How can they possibly explain it?
An adult has been a child--they can relate their OWN experiences to help them learn.
A child has NEVER been a adult and thus has no expereince t draw upon to teach.
Please note the coachs of olympic champions ARE NOT CHILDREN.
They coach children BUT ARE NOT CHILDREN TEHMSELVES.



Once again, we are having only half an argument here. I don't expect a 10-13 year old to be running classes. But they can certainly help out. What precisely is the problem with a 10 year old helping an adult put together the basic steps of his katas, which the 10 year old may have performed a thousand of times? Why can't a 10 year old tell an adult, "hey, when you're doing a knife hand block, your elbow should be bent like this, and your wrist should be straight"?
Quote:

Please note that I have asked you multiple times to tell the name of 10-13 year shooting coach/trainer.


You asked me ONCE before. No, I don't know any. I don't know of any kids that age who have the experience to be able to coach/teach. But, I've seen kids as young as 15 with extraordinary skill. Enough to be rated as GM's in IPSC/USPSA. And, if they wanted to give me a pointer now and then, I'd sure as heck listen.

Quote:

Another serious issue would be to what extent a 10-13 year old truly understand what they teaching.
I find it hard to belive that 10-13 year can have as good a grasp of proper bio-mechanics, sport physology, and kinistetics as does an adult.
Since such thing require a college degree--I would guess that most folks feel the same.


I take then that you believe no martial arts instructor should be allowed to teach if he doesn't have degrees in those fields?

Quote:

No I would deny Mary Lou Retton on the grounds that she is a gymnast not a martial artist.


The assumption was based upon her taking sufficient lessons to qualify for testing for a black belt. But, you already knew that... What I was trying to get at was that physical size should not be a determining factor.

Quote:

Since you brought it up--Mary Lou was NOT teaching when she was 13--she was training under the guidence of a qualified adult.
Thats why she won.


But, I bet none of the other parents at the gym would have objected if she gave their kids a pointer now and then...

Quote:

Like I said before, stuff like this very conversation is why folks (by abd large) no longer take TKD seriously.
Because people such as your self muster every bit of "logic" they can and try to justify a child being the equal of adult.

For those of us old enough to have kids or perhaps have younger brothers or sisters--we know what a 10-13 kid can handle and how mature they are etc.
To anyone that does has such experience your protestations ring hollow.


I've never once said that they are "equal". I wouldn't expect a 10 year old black belt to be able to get in the ring with Bob Sapp, anymore than I would expect a 4'10" 90lb. woman to get in the ring with him. If Big Bob was mad, I'd expect my kid to have enough sense, as I would, to turn around and run as fast as he could, as far as he could. I've simply said that I see no problem with a 10 year old helping show things to younger students (in rank, not in age) in a supervised environment, where material is reviewed by the head instructor later. If an adult is so close minded as to believe that he can't learn from someone who is younger, despite that younger person's experience, ability, demeanor, etc., then it's the adult who is missing out.

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#119568 - 05/16/05 01:21 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MattJ]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Quote by ipscshooter -

Quote:

Are you suggesting that regardless of skill and technique, one should not get a black belt until one can compete against adults? How far are you willing to take this argument? Assuming that Mary Lou Retton were to test for a black belt... Would you deny it on the ground that she couldn't compete physically with Bob Sapp in a UFC match? Even among adults, MA matches have various classes for age/weight/sex, etc.




That is unfortunately the crux of the McDojo argument. As recently as the 1960's, BB's were in fact awarded primarily due to fighting ability. There was tremendous contreversy regarding (then) 14 year old Benny (the jet) Urquidez earning his BB.

One of the principle factors is his recieving it was that he could beat most adults in sparring.

The fact that BB's are now awarded to people with little demonstrable fighting skill has everything to do with this.


Fine, I understand that argument. But, even Gen. Choi said that Black Belts could be earned as young as 9 years old. If you want to say that Black Belts shouldn't be awarded until someone can "beat most adults in sparring", I'm sure there are arts out there with rules prohibiting advancement to that rank before you're 18. This is a TKD forum, and I don't think Gen. Choi has rewritten his Encyclopedias since his death. His criteria for advancement to Black Belt required a knowledge of the techniques and ability to perform them with an appropriate level of power, the katas, the principles of TKD, and the ability to spar at an appropriate level against others of like age and rank.

Quote:

Ten year olds, while capable of learning quite a bit about MA, lack both the size and the essential life experience to really be held as any kind of fighting authority.

Forms? Basics? I suppose....but MA in the combat sense?

No sir.


This last part is what I'm getting at... CXT seems to be arguing that a younger person shouldn't even be allowed to help show forms and basics.

Size and Essential Life Experience? I'm trying to recall which of my "essential life experiences" I've had during my 47+ years of Midwestern, upper-middle class, suburban existence have given to me any kind of fighting authority. Perhaps MA instructors should be restricted to those who have grown up on the streets, fighting for their turf, etc.

And, if size is such a factor, what would you think of a (relatively) skinny 130 lb. Bruce Lee trying to give lessons to Mr. Sapp? Wasn't Gen. Choi rather small in physical stature? Wouldn't using size as a criterion eliminate most women from consideration as black belts?

I thought the crux of the McDojo argument related to kids being given black belts or otherwise advancing primarily for attendance, and not as a result of skills testing.

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#119569 - 05/16/05 02:14 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
MattJ Offline
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Enjoying this debate greatly.

Quote by ipscshooter:

Quote:

Size and Essential Life Experience? I'm trying to recall which of my "essential life experiences" I've had during my 47+ years of Midwestern, upper-middle class, suburban existence have given to me any kind of fighting authority. Perhaps MA instructors should be restricted to those who have grown up on the streets, fighting for their turf, etc.




Hmmm...not exactly what I was talking about. The total combined amount of MA plus life experience is what I mean.

This is not easy to define, but easy to recognize when absent.

Quote:

And, if size is such a factor, what would you think of a (relatively) skinny 130 lb. Bruce Lee trying to give lessons to Mr. Sapp? Wasn't Gen. Choi rather small in physical stature? Wouldn't using size as a criterion eliminate most women from consideration as black belts?




Bruce Lee did not compete, but did make use of full-contact training with his students, many of whom were bigger than he. Benny Urquidez was not a big guy, nor was Helio Gracie, but both of them were known for being able to hang with much larger opponents.
_________________________
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#119570 - 05/16/05 03:04 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
JohnL Offline
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Registered: 03/24/03
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Quote:

Quote by ipscshooter -
But, even Gen. Choi said that Black Belts could be earned as young as 9 years old.




In that case, I hold Gen. Choi in as low regard as anyone else who holds the same opinion.

It's unfortunate, but this is certainly one of the reasons that TKD gets a bad rap. It's even worse that the very young black belt syndrome has now migrated to a lot of karate organizations.
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#119571 - 05/16/05 03:05 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MattJ]
MN JC Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
IPCS- The thing that I think is the issue, is that a 10-13 yr old may know the technique but do they understand the reason for it, how to vary it, how to use it to set up somthing else? Knowing the techniques does not qualify anyone to teach them.

Also, as a very proud parent (of four young MA's) I can also see where it is easy to see how my child is differant (more focused, better listner, is more mature), but the truth of the matter is I am blinded by the fact that they are mine. So It is hard to use one's own child as the exception.

I think that a child may be used to demonstrate how to do somthing, but should not be teaching. They do not have the maturity and full knowledge of what teaching is, how to get the point across and how to change up how you are teaching, if the student does not get it.

Also, Choi may have said that 9 year olds can be BB's, but being a BB does not make you a teacher.

I know that you have your opinion and none of us will change it, you must also realize that we have our opinions and that you will not be able to change them..

Enjoy.
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#119572 - 05/16/05 03:24 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MN JC]
JohnL Offline
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Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
It's interesting how this discussion has developed;

Kiwi - States that he teaches at age 16.

Pwrkikin - States that he taught between 8-10.

Ipscshooter - Staes that the age of the blackbelt doesn't matter. Given that in TKD there are 6 year old blackbelts, that means that he agrees with 6 year olds teaching.

And people wonder why the MA's (And no I don't mean just TKD) get a poor reputation.

Not only that, when people say that this is crazy, the people concerned try and justify the situation.

I await the time when a group of 40 year olds are crawling around the dojo/dojang going goo goo, just because someone wrapped a blackbelt around a 3 year olds waist.

It's clear the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
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#119573 - 05/16/05 03:31 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: JohnL]
MN JC Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Maybe then we can have differant colored blankets instead of belts???
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#119574 - 05/16/05 04:00 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
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IPC

Now your just being silly.

A dojang is PART of life.

But YOUR THE ONE SAYING HIS KID IS SPECIAL---I have no way to determine that other than your say so.
And from where I sit you sound like any other parent.
Plus since you mantian that the 10 year kids are taking the same test as full grown adults--then your "3td party" assurtion is worthless--you "3td party" is handing black belts to pretty much ANYONE.
Sorry buts exactly how you have made it look.

How have you established that a 10 year "really" knows what they doing?
You assert that--but how can we KNOW that. Other than your say so--I know many 10 year olds that can copy teacher pretty good--but because they lack the teacher experience they may telling OTHER folks to do it WRONG.

So in other words you know OF NO 10-13 shooting coach/teacher.
Oh, and your splitting hairs--I did not ask you if you would take "pointers" from a 10-13 year old I asked if you knew of ANY 10-13 teaching shooting.
And we both know why you don't.
Hmmmm, wonder why???????????

(dirty pool there IPC--asked you a specific question, you answer in such a way as to spin it into something its not--weak)

No I am willing to substaute a couple of decades of training for a college degree in those fields--that and you need to be a functuioning adult.
A 10-13 year old child, whom does have the mental development or the learning skills of an adult is in no position to argue that he learnd "alot" when he was 6-9.
Maybe he did--but does he knwo it as well as an adult--how could he?
Childern are not the equals of adults in any academic or physical area--TKD should be no different.

And I bet your wrong--Retton trained with some of the best and brigthest ADULTS that world of professonal gymnastsitcs had to offer--you can bet you ass that the folks that were paying HUGE DOLLARS for traing from those guys/gals would not have stood for a student "stand in."
I sure as heck would not have done so.

In rational terms AGAIN I am not paying my hard earned cash to a 10-13 year kid.
I paid the master, I expect him to teach. Period.

Now your changeing your base AGAIN.

The discussion here is teaching in general and comparing adults and children specifically.

Now you say:

"I've simple said that I see no problem with a 10 year old helping show things to younger students"

Thus is NOT what we have been talking about--its a fall-back positon that you have retreated to now that all your other arguements have been quashed.
PLus by even saying it you have tacitly agreed with me--kids are NOT the equal of adults and should be treated differently.

All you have done by insisting that children are the equal of adults is make TKD and your dojang look bad to anyone reading this.
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#119575 - 05/16/05 04:13 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
cxt Online   content
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John L

Many problems here.

1-You have a parent who is too close to the situation to think objectivly

2-You have person/people that are so heavily invested in a belief system that they simply can't look at the situation objectively or rationally.

3-You have folks that actually got training from a child that are desperate to maintian the illusion that there is nothing wrong with it.
Picture your basci 3 monkeys with their hands clapped firmly over their eyes, ears and mouths.

4- You have the whole McDojang crowd that is USING kids to teach because its a cheap way to boost profits--by NOT having to HAVE the master teach.
SO they HAVE to defend there actions.

5-You ahve people working under the erronous belief that simply because they can argue something or make a case ofr it--thats MUST be de-facto "correct."
When the truth is that a person can make almost anything "seem" right--world is full of quick talking con men.

6- You have some really talented people that really are/were "child prodgies."
Problem is that they don't understand they are the exception to the rule.
That most kids can't be them.
Reminds me of folks that say you don't have to really tall to play basketball--they usually point to "Spud" Webb.
Problem is how many "Spud" Webb are there??
And no-one gets that.
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#119576 - 05/16/05 04:32 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: JohnL]
tkd_high_green Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
I've been reading this discussion with interested, and actually decided to register in order to respond, as this has been a heated topic at the school I attend. A year and a half ago, when I was testing for High White, one of the other students in our club tested for his black belt, at the age of 13. Many parents were upset that he was given his black belt, rather than a junior black belt. My instructors (Sixth Don with 25+ years in TKD) response was simply that he deserved his black belt.

Since I had only been involved in the sport for a short time, I did not have any oppinions on the matter, but like many of you, I wondered how someone so young would have the life skills of an adult.

Since that time I have come to realize that my instructor was right. This young man deserves his black belt and respect for the many years he devoted to the art. Not only does he have skill, but he also has the drive and devotion to the sport to excel.

As far as teaching, In our school, every red belt is required to have at least 10 hours of teaching before they can obtain their black belt. It gives them leadership experience, and requires that really start understanding the techniques that they are teaching. As a teacher myself (prof at the local community college), I know just how difficult it is to stand in front of a group of people and try to explain some concept to them. It doesn't just require knowledge of the material, it requires understanding your students and adapting your techniques to help them understand the material, while at the same time not boring them to death.

While I may not be the best instructor out there, I can recognize them when I see them, and have been fortunate to have a few exceptional teachers in my life, one of them being my TKD instructor. It takes a lot of skill to be able to tear a students pattern appart, without tearing them apart, and keep them coming back for more.

It is this ability that I see in this, now 14 year old, black belt. Over the course of the years, he not only learned Tae Kwon Do, but how to teach it. Outside of class he may still be the same old crazy teenager, but as soon as his dobok is on and he steps inside the dojang, he is all serious about his role as a role model, instructor, and student. With supervision, this young man has turned into a fine instructor and now routinely runs or assists with many of the kids classes, and on occasion even the adult classes. (He doesn't often teach them because he is usually participating in the class).

Do I think young students should recieve their blackbelts, absolutely, if they deserve it, and show the maturity not to abuse the rank.

Do I think young blackbelts should teach, absolutly. I think all upper ranked TKD students should be required to teach, to stand in front of the class, and at least take the class through the warmups, if for no other reason than to give them experience in public speaking.

Would I take a class taught by these young blackbelts? Absolutly, I have done so in the past, and will no doubt do so again in the future. It does not take a masters degree in teaching to be able to teach, first and foremost it requires understanding the material you are teaching, and having the ability to teach it. Some people have this naturally, others have to work to achieve it, and some never do, regardless of how good their technique is.

Each student should be evaulated separately and given the rank and respect they deserve. If that person has a passion for the art, dedication, and desire to continue with their training and want to share their knowledge with others, regardless of age, they should be allowed to do so and given every chance to excel.

Yes these children may not have the life experiences that an adult may or may not have, but the fact remains, Anyone who has practiced a skill for 8 or 9 years should have the ability to pass on the basics of that skill to someone else. A turning kick is a turning kick, the physics of that turning kick will have been drilled into that person by the time they get to black belt. Even myself, although I know I can't do a perfect turning kick, I could explain to you the physics and technique, chambers, ect, and even possibly do a fairly decent job of demonstrating it.

A black belt is someone who knows the material well enough to begin passing that knowledge onto others. That requires maturity, and cannot be judged by a persons age.

If at the time a student is to recieve their black belt or junior black belt, the only real difference is in their maturity level. If they act like an adult, show ability to teach, and respect the responsibilty given to them, then by all means they should get their black belt, regardless of age. If not, then they should be given their junior black belt until they do.

Just my two cents...

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#119577 - 05/16/05 04:54 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: tkd_high_green]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
TKD

Just a bit of clarity, the issue you discribe is relativly new one.

It was not so long ago that there were age requirments for advancement.
My own TKD teacher demanded that a student be at least 22 years old, a college student and least 2nd degree to teach.
In those day the vast majority of students were fully grown adults.

Today the majority of TKD student are kids--often very young children.
It effect the way classes are taught.
Things have chaned in TKD

You mention the number of teaching hours needed to get rank.
In many cases that is merely a way for "master" to force students to teach for free.
Look at it like this--you yourself indicate that some people just don't have the appitude for teaching--yet they are required to do so to get rank.

So the situation you set up is people are forced to take lessons from folks who are bad teachers--so folks really don't learn much, all because they "have" to teach.

Does that sound fair to you?
Are you comfortable PAYING for that experience?

The problem here is largely one of ego--not YOU JUST MAKING A POINT.
What folks do in their respective dojang is none of my business.
If you or anyone else wants to let kids teach, its ok with me.

But folks are not content to just do their own thing in the privacy of their school they have to come on-line and try and force everyone else to agree with their outlook.

I do not think that 10-13 old kids should be teaching anyone, I do not think a 10-13 should be able to pass an adult Black Belt test.
I think that anyone who allows such things is hurting us all--makes us all look pretty bad.
And I although I respect your opinion, I have yet to hear any logically sound reason why I should change mine.


Edited by cxt (05/16/05 05:05 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119578 - 05/16/05 05:11 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Have a look at the Uni TKD Club website.

They claim to have three 9 year old 1st dans, two 8 year old 1st dans, and two 7 year old 1st dans.

Not to mention the 5th dan who hardly looked old enough to shave.

I don't know what we're complaining about.
_________________________
John L

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#119579 - 05/16/05 05:21 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by cxt -

Quote:

You mention the number of teaching hours needed to get rank.
In many cases that is merely a way for "master" to force students to teach for free.
Look at it like this--you yourself indicate that some people just don't have the appitude for teaching--yet they are required to do so to get rank.




I get you that some teachers are doing this to get free assistants as you say. I am not convinced that this is a terrible thing, though.

You talk about aptitude for teaching - but how does anyone know their aptitude until they do so? We could also easily change the word teaching to sparring. I had no aptitude for sparring when I started, but was "forced" to do so a reqirement of advancing in rank. This was not a bad thing in my view.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#119580 - 05/16/05 05:27 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
TKD

Just a bit of clarity, the issue you discribe is relativly new one.

You mention the number of teaching hours needed to get rank.
In many cases that is merely a way for "master" to force students to teach for free.





You misunderstand me, perhaps it is different in other schools, but my instructor does not have advanced students teach so he doesn't have to. He personally teaches 5 classes a night, plus a large number of afterschool programs. Yes on occasion, he may have someone take over if he needs to take the occasional phone call or go to the bathroom (even master instructors need to pee ) There may be an occasional evening that he may take off, or the occasional vacation, that his blackbelts cover, but that is a rare occurance. If one of his higher ranked students does cover a class on a regular basis, (primarily the after school programs), they are reimbursed, often in the form of free training. And I am quite happy taking class from these other black belts.

As for the teaching requirement. It often will first start out as requiring the newly red belted student to "start class". This is basically the standard round of warm up excersizes and drills. The whole time being observed by our instructor. After class they are given feedback on how they did, what they could do to improve, etc. As they progress, they will be given longer stints before our instructor takes over. Often, the student will run the class, and our instructor will just be the "assistant", helping when necessary, filling in gaps, and helping to teach them how to teach. Eventually, if they show the skill and desire to teach, they may be allowed to teach a class, but anyone of higher rank can be called upon to help teach those of lower ranks during class. I have taken many of the teaching techniques that my instructor has used into my own classes with great success.

It is because of this that I know that these young kids have the ability to teach, because they were taught HOW to teach as part of their training.

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#119581 - 05/16/05 05:33 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MattJ]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA

Matt

Only offering another possible reason for the requirement.

You make an excellent point, however I still have to go back to why people train.
I have no doubt that some folks are overjoyed to find out the "master" considers them good enough to teach.
But that is certianly not why I train.
To be up-front about it I could care less about teaching--cuts into my practice time.

So there is no reason at all to (from my admittedly narrow perspective) to gain any "apptitude" for teaching.
That is not why I am there, that is not why I PAY to train.
And as an adult---I have a both a good perspective on my goals for training and the maturity to decide for myself.

Be happy to teach, just as soon as "master" cuts my own dues/fees for each class/person I teach.
Which I am sure some folks do.
Just as I am equally sure some folks take advantage of their students as source of free labor.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119582 - 05/16/05 05:42 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: tkd_high_green]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
TKD

Sounds good in print--just have seen too much that does NOT follow equally as well in practice to have much faith in it.

I question the abilty of any child to be a decent teacher, (to many adults that can't do it--and the kids already have a couple of strikes) kids simply can't do (overall) the same job as an adult.
If they could you would see it in many areas not just TKD.

Were talking about potential dangerous fighting arts here and kids simply don't have the abilty to learn, understand, relay, and TEACH that adult should have.
Remember were talking about 10-13 year olds here
And most 10-13 year old kids are NOT taking college coursework.
Theres are sound reasons for that.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119583 - 05/16/05 05:52 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: JohnL]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

It's interesting how this discussion has developed;

Kiwi - States that he teaches at age 16.

Pwrkikin - States that he taught between 8-10.

Ipscshooter - Staes that the age of the blackbelt doesn't matter. Given that in TKD there are 6 year old blackbelts, that means that he agrees with 6 year olds teaching




John, you know that we have had this discussion before and that you are inaccurately stating what I said. Gen. Choi said 9 years old was the minimum. I don't believe a 6 year old could do it. Also, I have never said that juniors should be teaching unsupervised. And, to be an "instructor" in TKD, not just an assistant, you have to be 4th Dan which, at an absolute minimum would take another 9 years.

Instructors are allowed to delegate authority to assistants to teach. Assistants do not have the power to test. Even an adult 1st Dan is only allowed to teach up to 5th grade, which is green belt/blue stripe.

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#119584 - 05/16/05 06:07 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:


But YOUR THE ONE SAYING HIS KID IS SPECIAL---I have no way to determine that other than your say so.
And from where I sit you sound like any other parent.
Plus since you mantian that the 10 year kids are taking the same test as full grown adults--then your "3td party" assurtion is worthless--you "3td party" is handing black belts to pretty much ANYONE.
Sorry buts exactly how you have made it look.



To ANYONE? I believe I said that he has awarded ONE to a 10 year old, in 30 years of running his school.

Quote:

Now your changeing your base AGAIN.

The discussion here is teaching in general and comparing adults and children specifically.

Now you say:

"I've simple said that I see no problem with a 10 year old helping show things to younger students"

Thus is NOT what we have been talking about--its a fall-back positon that you have retreated to now that all your other arguements have been quashed.


I haven't "fallen back" to anything. I think I've been pretty consistent throughout this discussion. I have never said I thought juniors should be teaching adult classes and handing out black belts. I've consistently stated that I saw no problem with juniors helping out their head instructor while the head instructor attends to other matters in class, with review of the material afterward by the head instructor.

Quote:

PLus by even saying it you have tacitly agreed with me--kids are NOT the equal of adults and should be treated differently.

All you have done by insisting that children are the equal of adults is make TKD and your dojang look bad to anyone reading this.


Please point out where I said they were equal.

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#119585 - 05/16/05 11:56 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
TraditionalTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Jackson, MI
I do not have a problem with a 13 year old black belt, as long as it is recognized that he is a JUNIOR (Poom Dan) black belt. In other words, his technique relative to other kids his age is black belt quality. He should NOT be considered a full Dan, in the sense that he is the equal of adults who hold the Dan rank. He is not their equal. Even if he lines up with all other black belts, he cannot line up ahead of adult Dans unless he tested first, and even that is debatable. To do so would insult the adults by saying that a child is superior to them. This is part of the Confucian ethic in Tae Kwon Do-adults come first.
As for teaching, the most a Poom Dan could do is assist an adult teaching the children's class, and only if he were gifted for his age. Young children do need to see someone around their age attain the Dan to motivate them. But no way should a child be a primary Instructor even for children. If I were a student, and the black belt teaching me were a child, I'd be highly insulted.

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#119586 - 05/17/05 10:13 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
IPC

What can say, I have explained that your doing little more than harming your own dojang by your protestations that 10-13 year old children take the same test as a 25-30 year old full grown adult.
Its not MY fault that YOUR actions call into question the validity of your dojang and its training.

Have you not being paying attention? We have spent a full day on this topic and as pointed out--your overly narrow defiantion of what kids should be allowed to do is only PART of whats being discussed here.

A good part of this discussion has to do with testing, and if kids should be teaching at all (which I don't think they should) if kids have enough grasp of the material TO teach it. Weither or not its "prideful" for folks to object to paying their hard earned money to be taught by children, heck you even worked in Motzart and Mary Lou Retton.

What I am getting at here is that there was, is and will be more to this topic than your overly narrow posit above.

(and as far as I am concerned, your only taking it because your other arguements have come up short)

Look at it like this--you were the one that multiple times insisted that it was "prideful" for folks to think they could not learn something from a child---since I am adult and you are an adult--it makes little sense now to insist that what you "really" meant was that a kid could help teach other children under the supervision of a master.

See, that makes little rational sense.
Like I said before, its a "fall-back" position that you retreated to after your other arguements were quashed.

Tell you what, we disagree in fundamental fashion as to what is "ok" by way of children and skill levels.
You don't strike me a bad guy, your clearly smart and have a strong opinion.

Lets just agree to disagree about this topic and just drop it.
Enjoying the discussion but I don't think were getting anywhere.


Edited by cxt (05/17/05 12:15 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119587 - 05/17/05 01:17 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPC

What can say, I have explained that your doing little more than harming your own dojang by your protestations that 10-13 year old children take the same test as a 25-30 year old full grown adult.
Its not MY fault that YOUR actions call into question the validity of your dojang and its training.


You're welcome to your opinion. Our tests are consistent with what Gen. Choi prescribes in his Encyclopedia of TKD. Actually, our junior's test is harder than what Choi prescribes, in that Choi apparently does not require breaking during a junior's test. Our instructor does, and for black belt exam, even requires multi-board breaks. Our students all fare reasonably well at state level tournaments, so I don't think we've been severely short-changed. I suspect that some of our young black belts would even give you a good match. We had one who was 6'4, about 185, and as fast as a cobra, by the time he was 17.

Quote:

Have you not being paying attention? We have spent a full day on this topic and as pointed out--your overly narrow defiantion of what kids should be allowed to do is only PART of whats being discussed here.


I understand what the discussion is about. It was and has been about teaching. I was simply proferring my opinion as to the extent to which I thought it was reasonable to allow juniors to teach. That is, in a supervised context, with review of taught material by the head instructor later in the class. We both agree that juniors should not be teaching unsupervised. You apparently go beyond this position to assert that juniors should not even be allowed to teach in a supervised context, under any circumstance, as to any material, to any student.

Quote:

A good part of this discussion has to do with testing, and if kids should be teaching at all (which I don't think they should) if kids have enough grasp of the material TO teach it. Weither or not its "prideful" for folks to object to oaying thier hard earned money to be taught by children, heck we even worked in Motzart and Mary Lou Retton.

What I am getting at here is that there was, is and will be more to this topic than your overly narrow posit above.

(and as far as I am concerned, your only taking it because your other arguements have come up short)


That's just BS. My position on this has been the same throughout. How can it be a fall-back position taken because my other arguments have come up short? That makes no sense whatsoever. Perhaps your statement would be correct if I had initially said "10 year olds should be able to run their own dojangs". And then retreated to this position after being ridiculed. But that is not what I've done.

Quote:

Look at it like this--you were the one that multiple times insisted that it was "prideful" for folks to think they could not learn something from a child


It is. Fits the definition to a T.

Quote:

---since I am adult and you are an adult--it makes little sense now to insist that what you "really" meant was that a kid could help teach other children under the supervision of a master

See, that makes little rational sense.

Like I said before, its a "fall-back" position that you retreated to after your other arguement were quashed.

I notice above that your even dragging Gen Choi into this.


That's not even what I'm saying. What I've said goes beyond juniors (under 18) helping teach kids under supervision of the head instructor. I see no problem with juniors helping teach adults under the supervision of the head instructor.

We are in agreement that kids shouldn't be teaching ANY class unsupervised. [Why all the hostility when we are in about 75% agreement here?] Where we disagree is that I think that juniors, who have put in years of training and have learned the material, have something to offer to other students, whether junior or adult... and that an adult (apparently, to you, even a first day student) who believes that the junior, merely because of age, can't show him anything is arrogant, pompous and prideful.

The 13 year old I was talking about earlier (now about 18, I believe), attends class with his 60+ year old father. They are both the same rank, 2nd Dans, both working toward 3rd, and both were blackbelts when I started taking lessons 6+ years ago. Throughout their training together, the junior has outperformed his father on all of the material. His techniques are better. His forms are better. He spars better. He performs techniques with more strength and precision. He performs with higher scores on his testings. He learns the material faster. When he was 16, I watched him easily break 3 12X12X1 boards with a front punch (I can't do that at three times that age). Are you suggesting that he shouldn't even be able to help his father with material that he has already learned? On many occasions during my training, the head instructor asked the father to show me techniques. (I assume you have no problem with that... since he's an adult and all...) On many of those occasions, the father had to ask his son to help, either because he couldn't physically demonstrate the technique, or because he didn't remember portions of the material. (i.e. There might be 10 defenses to work on, and he only remembered 8). Frankly, in most circumstances the junior was a better teacher than his father.

Gen. Choi's encyclopedia states that ANY student who has mastered a technique should be able to show it to a lower-ranked student. Thus, even a 9th Gup student should be able to show a 10th Gup, for example, a front kick.

Also, as stated above, in TKD, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Dan are all "assistant instructor" ranks, and not allowed to teach unsupervised anyway. It's not until 4th dan that one becomes an "Instructor". And, 1st Dan is only allowed to teach (supervised) up to Green Belt/Blue Stripe. I simply find it hard to believe that any adult could be so arrogant as to believe, even on his very first day of class, he couldn't learn a walking stance from a junior who has been practicing the art for between 5 and 12 years. This appears to be your position, since juniors shouldn't teach "at all", not even supervised.

As you apparently have 20+ years in the arts, I can understand that YOU have surpassed what probably all juniors could show you. However, look at it from the perspective of a beginner, in a class of 30+ students, who is in a 1 1/2 hour class and whose head instructor must devote separate time to the red belts, the red belt/blue stripes, the blue belts, etc., etc., etc. etc... Why on Earth could the instructor not ask a 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year old, who has been taking lessons for 4, 5, maybe 10 years, to help that beginning student with Four Direction Punch, or other basic material, while the head instructor tends to other matters. What would the beginner do otherwise? Sit there and watch? Why not take advantage of the experience of these other students in order to gain some knowledge, even if it must be reviewed and supplemented later with the head instructor?

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#119588 - 05/17/05 01:35 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
IPC

Ok fine--I did try.

Last one first, you use the term "mastered" in refernce to a technique.
Since in my 20 plus years of training I notice that folks that ARE masters, with considerably more training than I feel that THEY HAVE NOT "REALLY" MASTERED FUNDAMENTAL TECHNIQUES then I would guess that a 10-13 year child probably has not either.

(perhaps you are unaware of the various people that have said so)

Plus there is world of difference between the abilty to properly execute a technique and the ability to teach it.
Your fond of using the knife hand strike as an example so lets use that.
The bio-mech of the knife hand are complex, what is the aim point? What is the proper angle the hand should take? Where does the power come from? Should you be relaxed or tense--and at what point?
Should you lead with the elbow or should it "follow the strike?" What stance is best? What are the specific situations you should use it? Is it more of strike with the edge of the hand or more of a thrust at the eyes?
When should you NOT use it? What are the disadvantages of the strike--what does is open YOU up for?
How do I train the strike? How shoudl I set my feet? How do I use my torso to add power to the strike? How to I use my lower body to add power to the strike? What are the counters?

These are just a few questiosn that a adult teacher should know the answewrs to and a 10 year old probably would not--and if they did, I question their ability to explain it in detail.
Most 10 year olds are not capable of such exposition.

Whats "BS" is your refusal to admit the various areas this topic has touched on--your unwillingness to accept the fact that your wrong and your blind, unsupported insistance that children are qualifed teachers.

What ALSO "BS" is your claim that you would allow a 13 kid to handle the job of re-modeling your entire kitchen--and a rational person would balk at that suggestions--but since it goes against your stance you say it would be ok with you.

Which is illogical. irrational and if I may say so, quite craven.
Its the act of a man so caught up in his own personal belief system that he can't even be honest enough to admit that his outlook has some serious flaws.

Look no further than your posts--you keep parseing arguements.
We have been talking about 10-13 years compared to 25-30 year old, black belt tests and abilty to teach.
What do you do above?
You make a comparsion with a 60 year old--then you extend the example to him learning faster than his father--when the discussion has NEVER been about whom learns faster--or 60 year olds at all.
At best its interesting but irrelevent.


Edited by cxt (05/17/05 04:14 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119589 - 05/17/05 02:01 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Quote:

Quote:

IPC

Gen. Choi's encyclopedia states that ANY student who has mastered a technique should be able to show it to a lower-ranked student. Thus, even a 9th Gup student should be able to show a 10th Gup, for example, a front kick.





Hi IPS

If that is in Gen. Choi's book, I suggest burning the book every time you find one. You appear for some reason to hold it in some regard.

It's impossible for a 9th Gup/Kyu to teach anything. They don't know anything. All that will happen by letting someone of this level teach anything is that they will get it wrong and then the new student is handicapped from the beginning by flawed teaching.

I suggest you stop reading the little Choi book if it has pearls of wisdom like that in it and start thinking for yourself.
_________________________
John L

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#119590 - 05/17/05 02:07 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: JohnL]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
CXT = 1 point.

IPC = 1/2 point.

CXT, advantage and game.

-B

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#119591 - 05/17/05 02:51 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I can't believe this thread went on for this long.

Anyone that tries to argue kids can be yudansha and/or teach is justifing the BUSINESS, not the art.

Why doesn't everyone see this? It's so simple. A case of blinded by their own profiteering I suppose.

Somebody decades ago saw the market and geered the art to that open market; technique and depth/bredth of study was a second priority (how much could they really learn as kids anyway right). It has been an ever-increasing spiral to the bottom of ego-marketing.
here's the business plan:
Supply: kids wanting instant gratification.
Demand: kid-worshipping parents wants pictures, trophies and their kid to have what they want....at any cost.

hmmm...anyone with not even so much as a business 101 class from a community college can figure this one out. heres the formula:
make the kid happy = Money.

lets say I'm a shister. here's what I do, given the supply and demand, I open a clubhouse and call it a dojo. then I advertise everywhere with anime of cool XMA stuff and state of the art marketing strategy. The first kid students to trickle in get promoted quickly so the new kids see a 6 year old BB and say, I wanna be a bwack-bewlt twooo! During the 1 or 2 year course to bwack-bewlt, I'm constantly promoting them while screwing the parents. basically I'm selling egos by the dozen...or you could look at it as selling them belts at about $300 per belt.

figure out the monthly and yearly average cash flow at your dojo. but even that doesn't tell the whole picture...I've learned that some mcsenseis get 'kickbacks' from the orgs that their dojo is affiliated. pyramid and ponzi schemes in MA? why are/aren't you surprized?

Isn't a mcdojo a ponzi scheme in itself? they are promising a high return (black belt and self-defense), for an immediate and continued investment. you won't know that you didn't get what you paid for until you are in a situation where it would have been nice to have what they promised.

all this being said, I'll still get criticized for saying such things no doubt. which is good too, at least you'll be thinking about it. sorry for the sarcasm, ego-selling to kids, to me, is like selling them drugs...thats how wrong I think it is.

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#119592 - 05/17/05 04:21 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: Kintama]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Kintama

Let me quote (ok parapharse) stright from the McDojang handbook:

Parent

"Is not that kid a little young to be teaching class?"

Master

"Yes, that's a member of our Leadership Training Group and they are developing valuable skills in leadership, group dynamics and organization.
Perhaps if your boy works hard and hits class 3 times a week he can qualify for the group as well."

Then change the subject!
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119593 - 05/18/05 10:26 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPC

Ok fine--I did try.

Last one first, you use the term "mastered" in refernce to a technique.
Since in my 20 plus years of training I notice that folks that ARE masters, with considerably more training than I feel that THEY HAVE NOT "REALLY" MASTERED FUNDAMENTAL TECHNIQUES then I would guess that a 10-13 year child probably has not either.


"Mastered" was an inappropriate choice of word, given the specialized meaning it has within the MA's. But, you and JohnL are acting as though a student gets shown a technique one time, practices it for 2 minutes, and that's it. You act as if the head instructor is too stupid to see if something is being performed incorrectly, too lazy to go over and correct it, and too lackadaisical to give a rat's a$$ whether his students are actually learning the material correctly. Do you feel that a person must have "mastered" (using the word as a term of art) a technique before giving someone basic instruction on how to perform it? If so, then, you're going to have virtually no MA instructors. As you said, even masters don't feel that they have really mastered anything.

Quote:

Plus there is world of difference between the abilty to properly execute a technique and the ability to teach it.
Your fond of using the knife hand strike as an example so lets use that.
The bio-mech of the knife hand are complex, what is the aim point? What is the proper angle the hand should take? Where does the power come from? Should you be relaxed or tense--and at what point?
Should you lead with the elbow or should it "follow the strike?" What stance is best? What are the specific situations you should use it? Is it more of strike with the edge of the hand or more of a thrust at the eyes?
When should you NOT use it? What are the disadvantages of the strike--what does is open YOU up for?
How do I train the strike? How shoudl I set my feet? How do I use my torso to add power to the strike? How to I use my lower body to add power to the strike? What are the counters?

These are just a few questiosn that a adult teacher should know the answewrs to and a 10 year old probably would not--and if they did, I question their ability to explain it in detail.
Most 10 year olds are not capable of such exposition.


Again, these are details that get worked on over years of training. Not in a session where the master says to one of his black belts "Go over there and help the white belts with Chon Ji." You keep acting as though I am advocating 10 year olds running dojangs by themselves. I am not. I expect techiques to be worked on hundreds and thousands of times over the course of one's MA training. And I expect that during the course of that training, if a technique is being executed incorrectly, that the Master will correct it.

Quote:

Whats "BS" is your refusal to admit the various areas this topic has touched on--your unwillingness to accept the fact that your wrong and your blind, unsupported insistance that children are qualifed teachers.


Jesus. I've admitted a bunch of areas this topic has touched on. There's a difference between "qualified teachers" and "qualified assistants". I am suggesting the latter. Not the former. And, assuming the head instructor knows what he is doing, he will know what the limitations of his "assistants" are, and will fill in any gaps there might be in the training.

You can sit there until you're blue in the face, screaming at your computer screen "You're wrong and you're blind" but, these are opinions. It is not a "fact that I am wrong". And, you are just as blind, obstinate and hard-headed as I am, if not moreso. You have the opinion that a junior cannot, under any circumstance, at any time, with or without supervision, teach any technique to any adult, whatsoever. You have the opinion that a 13 year old, who has been training for 7 or 8 years, is incompetent to help his head instructor by showing techniques to lower ranked students. I have the opinion that that is utterly moronic. I think that a kid, with years of training, can help out in class, to assist the head instructor to the extent that the head instructor believes the junior is competent to assist, and with review of material by the head instructor later. That's the extent to which I've been arguing for "kids as teachers". Yet because of your blinders, you attack me as though I'm advocating 10 year old Kwan Jangs (or in the case of JohnL, 6 year olds). You insist that all of this negatively reflects on my school. I think your opinion negatively reflects on the quality of instruction at your school, if your school has students who have been training for 7 years and yet are utterly incompetent to show even a 1st day student the proper technique for doing a basic technique. That's just pathetic.

Quote:

What ALSO "BS" is your claim that you would allow a 13 kid to handle the job of re-modeling your entire kitchen--and a rational person would balk at that suggestions--but since it goes against your stance you say it would be ok with you.


Of course, you leave out things that I said. I didn't say "any 13 year old", I said one who has been doing it for years, with demonstrated ability and good references. I'd require the same of an adult contractor. Of course, given the legal climate, it's unlikely that there is such a 13 year old in existence.

Quote:

Look no further than your posts--you keep parseing arguements.
We have been talking about 10-13 years compared to 25-30 year old, black belt tests and abilty to teach.
What do you do above?
You make a comparsion with a 60 year old--then you extend the example to him learning faster than his father--when the discussion has NEVER been about whom learns faster--or 60 year olds at all.
At best its interesting but irrelevent.



So, who's parsing now? I pointed out a LOT more than just "who learns faster". You are the one who has parsed the "juniors" into only 10-13 year olds and the "adults" into only 25-30 year olds. And, I thought the discussion was about juniors teaching. We agree that they shouldn't be teaching alone. I've said I see no problem with them helping out in class in a supervised context. You say you wouldn't even allow that. Fine, while the head instructor is off teaching the red belts, then the blue belts, then the greens, and so on, the white belts and yellow belts can sit around twiddling their thumbs for 90% of your class. I'd rather have the black belts (regardless of their age) working them out.

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#119594 - 05/18/05 11:00 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Quote:

Quote:

IPC

Ok fine--I did try.

First IPC He did try to let the arguement die and agree to disagree then, you came back and continued to argue, that was the whole reason for his last post. You cut his post apart but did not address that part.

" Fine, while the head instructor is off teaching the red belts, then the blue belts, then the greens, and so on, the white belts and yellow belts can sit around twiddling their thumbs for 90% of your class. I'd rather have the black belts (regardless of their age) working them out.




Just a thought, perhaps having different classes for different ranks, Not everyone in one class. I know many instructors find it easier to just have one big class, and if you do that, most instructors would then tell the upper belts what to do while working with the lower belts first.

Anyway that digresses and I think it pulls up more than what this thread was talking about.

So I think that the agreement to disagree is the only one really available. I disagree with you but, I have let it die, you are entitled to your opinions as we are...
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

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#119595 - 05/18/05 11:16 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
IPC

If its an "innappropriate" term then why did YOU use it?
I am just using YOUR terms here.

No, what I am "acting like" is that childen esp children 10-13 years are just to young to have a good enough grasp of the material to teach it in any degree of accuarcy.
You also quite neatly dodged the example I gave about the "knife hand strike" and the complex bio-mech involved that would be beyond the abiltiy of most 10-13 to either understand or more importantaly PASS ALONG TO OTHERS ie "teach."

A child is simply not qualified to teach, a child of 10-13 is STILL a child, and argeuments that they are 10 now and started training when they were 6--so they have four solid years of training are simply irrational.
Training as a child, with a childs attention span and a childs level of understanding means squat to ADULT standards.

Back to the kitchen example---you can spin this anyway you like--bottom line is that I don't buy it. No rational person would allow a 13 year kid to re-wire, re-plumb and re-model their kitchen.
You would not do it, I would not do, NO-ONE WOULD BE SO FOOLISH.
Yet your level of intellectual dishonesty allows you to stoop to claiming that you would.
This alone calls into serious question the validity of your outlook and logic.

And no, I am dealing with "10-13" year olds BECAUSE THAT IS THE AGE GROUP THAT WE ARE SPECIFCALLY DISCUSSING.
Dude, take a deep breath and catch a clue here.
YOUR THE GUY THAT USED THE 10 AND THE 13 YEAR OLD AS EXAMPLES--I am just working with what you give me.

And unlike you who states that "I'd rather have black belts (regardless of their age) working them out"

I would rather have qualified ADULTS working with my kids and myself.
Thats what I am paying for after all.

I'll say it second time, your just not positing a logical, rational or convincing arguement here.
What you do in your own dojang is your business--just don't expect anyone out here in the larger MA world to either agree with you or your feelings as to child teachers.

We don't and you have failed to convince us otherwise.

So lets just drop this.


Edited by cxt (05/18/05 11:37 AM)

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#119596 - 05/18/05 11:39 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MN JC]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
I believe what happened is that I may have been typing a response to an earlier post when he was typing the "agree to disagree" post. And, then the discussion continued... His latest post.... "It is a fact that you are wrong... you are blind... your arguments are unsupportable..." Ridiculous. That is not an "agreement to disagree". It is patently absurd to say that a 13 year old, who has been taking lessons for 7 or 8 years, is so utterly incompetent, so utterly undeserving of respect, so completely devoid of knowledge, that he shouldn't even be allowed to show a first day adult student a basic technique, under supervision.

CXT has taken half a dozen potshots at my school, but, it is HIS school that apparently is turning out students who can't even demonstrate the most basic technique to a beginner after 7 years of instruction.

He calls me blind, yet he is the one who says "I don't care how good he is, what he knows, or what the circumstances are, if he's a junior, he's incapable." THAT is being blind. I'll agree to disagree. We each have opinions. I will not accept that "it is a fact that I am wrong." That is not a "fact". That is an opinion.

As regards your comment on class size, our instructor has never strived for huge classes. He doesn't bow to parent pressure to advance students who don't perform up to standard. He doesn't give away belts just to keep kids, or their parents, interested. He'd rather lose a student who undeservedly believes he should be advanced in rank, than advance someone who hasn't demonstrated an appropriate level of performance of the materials. He prefers a smaller group of students and quality instruction. He's in the business to pass on the art, not to make boatloads of cash. If you have hundreds of students, sure, have a session for whites and yellows, a separate session for greens and blues, etc. That's not quite as practical when you've got 50 or 60 students. We have daily junior classes, 6-12 year olds, and adult classes, 13 and up, and a separate once a week session for black belts only.

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#119597 - 05/18/05 11:50 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Quote:



As regards your comment on class size, our instructor has never strived for huge classes. He doesn't bow to parent pressure to advance students who don't perform up to standard. He doesn't give away belts just to keep kids, or their parents, interested. He'd rather lose a student who undeservedly believes he should be advanced in rank, than advance someone who hasn't demonstrated an appropriate level of performance of the materials. He prefers a smaller group of students and quality instruction. He's in the business to pass on the art, not to make boatloads of cash. If you have hundreds of students, sure, have a session for whites and yellows, a separate session for greens and blues, etc. That's not quite as practical when you've got 50 or 60 students. We have daily junior classes, 6-12 year olds, and adult classes, 13 and up, and a separate once a week session for black belts only.




This is why I said this was a topic unto itself. It is a teachers preferance and total amount of students may spark the debate as to when/why/how to split up classes. As with the topic at hand, everyone will have their own opion on it.

Also, I (my personal opinion here) do not let the arguement that he is doing it, so I can do it, hold any water. If you have a problem with how he is argueing, don't do the same thing. This whold topic is turing into a flame war and is not adding anything to the topic, we are just turning the same things over and over.... But that is how it goes when people feel strongly about somthing. So at least we have some passion here...
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

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#119598 - 05/18/05 11:52 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MN JC]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:


Also, I (my personal opinion here) do not let the arguement that he is doing it, so I can do it, hold any water. If you have a problem with how he is argueing, don't do the same thing. This whold topic is turing into a flame war and is not adding anything to the topic, we are just turning the same things over and over.... But that is how it goes when people feel strongly about somthing. So at least we have some passion here...


Agreed. I apologize. I agree to disagree. I'm done.

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#119599 - 05/18/05 12:44 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
IPC

Yeah, taking a last hit THEN agreeing to let go is no agreement at all.

The correct response would have been to just drop it--as I was ready to do the first time I asked.

If you wish it dropped then by all means drop it.

But in the interests of clarity the only "potshots" I have taken at you were examples YOU YOURSELF POSTED about training in your school.

-The 10 year old black belt

-The CHILDERN taking and passing THE SAME TEST as 25-30 year old ADULT students.

-That you would allow, heck PAY, a 13 year kid to totally re-model your kitchen.

-You were the one who started this off by asserting that anyone who disagreed with your notion that children can teach were being--and I quote "prideful."
In effect that since we disagree with YOUR outlook there is something "wrong" with us.

-You were the one who extended spacious arguement after spacious arguement.


(as an aside, as a person of faith-I find it mildly offensive that you would cast anyone that disagreed with you as commiting the sin of "pride."
There are very good, sound and logical reasons for NOT agreeing with you, MANY of which I mentioned and NONE of which warrent the charge you leveled.)

Again the only "potshots" were YOUR OWN EXAMPLES OF THE TRAINING AT YOUR SCHOOL.
If you consider such examples "potshots" perhaps you should take a hard, serious and critical look at the school you have chosen for training.

I would suggest that might be a more productive course of action than argueing with me.


Edited by cxt (05/18/05 01:02 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119600 - 05/18/05 01:15 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPC

Yeah, taking a last hit THEN agreeing to let go is no agreement at all.


...which is precisely what you had done a day or so ago. Again. I'd like to agree to disagree... Let's drop this.

Quote:

The correct response would have been to just drop it--as I was ready to do the first time I asked.

If you wish it dropped then by all means drop it.


Fine... I consider it dropped.

Quote:

-You were the one who started this off by asserting that anyone who disagreed with your notion that children can teach were being--and I quote "prideful."
In effect that since we disagree with YOUR outlook there is something "wrong" with us.

-You were the one who extended spacious arguement after spacious arguement.

(as an aside, as a person of faith-I find it mildly offensive that you would cast anyone that disagreed with you as commiting the sin of "pride."
There are very good, sound and logical reasons for NOT agreeing with you, MANY of which I mentioned and NONE of which warrent the charge you leveled.)


I apologize for having offended you. As a point of clarification, though, I was not the first person to use the term. And, I was using it in the specific context of the definition I provided, which may not, necessarily, be the biblical sense.

I hope that none of the forgoing is considered a continuation of the "argument", which I considered an exchange of "opinions." Again, I apologize if I have offended you and I apologize if my comments were taken as derogatory or insulting.

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#119601 - 05/18/05 01:32 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
(I'm assuming gender for simplicity) you'll never win his sense of reason folks, if he doesn't allow himself to see it, then his motivation for doing so is larger than his common sense.

He is selling self-importance to the kids at his dojo...and he must be making enough $ to feel the need to defend it.

A feeble attempt of McDojo moral justification on his part.

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#119602 - 05/23/05 04:39 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kiwi]
TKD-Skippi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Scotland, Selkirk
In TKD a 1st degree BB simply denotes a certain degree of learned moves and patters. The period when you learn most things is when your under ten. so yeh, they will retain classes better (in theory) and lil kids are realy flexible so preforme kick easier. i was taugt a pattern the other day by a 13 year old. i'm 18 yellow belt. she knew the pattern i didnt. she taught it i learned it in 20 mins. nothing worg with her techings. so if somone who achived a BB has the knowlage then i see no reason he/she cant teach it, proving any older people can swalow the humble pie. even if there physical size/streagth means they cant efectively apply it.

just my two pence
_________________________
Do not be overcome by evil , but overcome evil with good -Romans 13:21

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#119603 - 05/23/05 05:26 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: TKD-Skippi]
cxt Online   content
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
TKD

You say:

"The period you learn most things is when your under 10"

Let me ask all the "under 10" year olds in my next college quantum physics class about that.

I'll get back to you later and tell you what they had to say about it.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119604 - 07/27/05 06:01 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
Spin_Hook Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 45
If you want to be treated like an adult AND a blackbelt then wait until you're both an ADULT and a BLACKBELT.
While it's unfair to treat you as an inferior simply due to age, surely you can see (having some hindsight now) how hard it is to immediately take a 10 year old blackbelt seriously when the martial arts world is littered with young black belts that don't deserve that rank.

Being respected for your merits is something that, sadly, has to be earned and the amount of time that this can take varies. Sometimes it takes years of repeatedly showing people, through positive actions, that they were wrong in the first place.

Besides that, holding out for universely approval is an exercise in futility.

Children are amazingly good and miming, imitating, and following directions. However, they are generally much more rudimentary when it comes to actually understanding WHY they do what they do or being able to explain the rationale. No one is saying that young children can't throw kicks as one trip to a soccer league would prove you a fool. What people (generally) are trying to get at is that a 10 year old black belt knows the motions, but understands a tenth ABOUT the motion that an adult does. Knowledge alone makes a great lower ranked belt. Physicality alone makes a great lower ranked belt. However, it is only the combination of these that makes a great martial artist.


Edited by Spin_Hook (07/27/05 06:12 PM)
_________________________
Aim first to understand; then to be understood.

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#119605 - 07/28/05 11:11 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kiwi]
Kepi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
I agree with you kiwi in that if a person meets the standard of black belt they should be treated with the same respect as any other. However, this is where i think there is a problem. I believe that if a 10yo can acheive black belt it means one of two things. Either the standard is not high enough or the 10yo has been treated differently than anyone else. I mean be serious, can a 10yo move with the same speed, power, co-ordination as a fully grown adult? The difference is just as a man is to a boy. If the answer is that the standard is low enough for a 10yo to pass then I say again that the standard is too low. With a younger person being treated "nicely" in gradings I've seen it all the time and it simply shouldn't happen. In this case its the examiner who is to blame.

Note: I've based my opinion on the fact that the ultimate goal of a martial art is to learn to fight. If you can make up for lack of power or sparring skill with good looking moves/patterns then you are learning how to dance, not fight, which I dont consider to be true martial arts.
_________________________
Teach me, I want to learn.

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#119606 - 07/29/05 01:20 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kiwi]
Christiancadet Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 553
The reason many people fell disgust when faced with kiddy BBs is that unlike adults they cannot undergo the same physical abuse that is associated by many people with a BB test. I hate all belt ranks personally though and prefer an enviroment simular to wrestling where training\respect is based off of skill not "rank" I have knocked out enough BBs in tournaments where I as a gup rank competed in their division to not have faith in any peice of cloth that people decide to wrap around their waist. Wear a BB for all I care what I do care about is your ability to fight not what you wear.

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#119607 - 07/31/05 02:44 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: Christiancadet]
Crazy_Eyes Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/05
Posts: 65
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Black belt is just mastery of technique till your level, just because your a blackbelt doesn't mean you can instantly kick ass. You need the spirit, and some people just dont have it in them, yes when it comes down to fighting, it's not about color it's about who comes out on top. But a black belt would have an advantage in understanding techniques.
_________________________
-2nd Degree Black Belt (WTF)

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#119608 - 01/05/06 02:35 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: Crazy_Eyes]
Sushi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany
Very strange situation!

In Europe it takes at least 6 years to achieve a black belt. So how should anyone learn something at the age of 4 !!
That is ridicoulos!!
I started at the age of 7 and achieved my black belt at the age of 16! -
you might say I did not train enough?
I went to my dojang twice a week for 4 years
three times a week for another 4 years
and since the age of 15 I was practising 5 times a week.

So my opinion - it takes at least 6-7 years and you should start with Poomse not earlier than 8 years of age..

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#119609 - 01/11/06 11:45 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: Sushi]
neofighter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 19
im 13, but i dnt hav trouble from senior blackbelts bcos i earned respect from them by training just as much as them and fighting as hard as i could against them. but i agree, junior blackbelts that dont know squat need to be put in line!!!!

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