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#119433 - 08/20/03 12:17 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
John L, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree as far as the youth thing goes. I have sent 2 posts disagreeing with you and you have sent two posts disagreeing with me.

You know by now what my opinion is on this subject and it hasn't changed.


"It sounds as if your club, like you, are very young. In terms of experience (for what I consider to be an experienced Martial Artist) 2 years is nothing."

Well we finally have found something we can agree on. Two years of training definately does not constitute an experienced martial artist. I have been doing Taekwon-Do for nine years which I believe is long enough to become an instructor of color belts. Some people in my club are forty plus and have been doing it for six to seven years. Hence nine minus seven equals two [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].

I do ITF Taekwon-Do my grading was conducted over three days. It involved testing on everything from fitness to theory.

We have the highest standard (as far as technique goes, WTF and Olympic can claim that they are better at sport sparring) then any other organisation. People do not give black belts out easily. Out of the class of thirty kids, I was the only one who made it up to black belt. I was also the youngest person to ever test and until a while ago the youngest black belt in New Zealand (in my organistaion).

I was given a senior black belt and had to do evrything a senior had to do (except the forefist punch was changed to knifehand due to my hand still developing). To anyone who tries to use this as part of their argument. Woman did not have to perform a forefist punch either, and people over fifty did not have to perform jumping techniques. These allowances were made because my organisaton believes in passing people based on their knowledge and technique, not their willingness to destroy their body for black belt. For my second degree I performed a forefist punch, and it has permanently damaged my hand.

In my organisation you will never see an eighth degree black belt at twenty because...

For second degree you have to wait 18 months.

For third you have to wait two years

and for the rest you have to wait even longer.

Also at sixth you are not graded but promoted. This only happens when ITF believes you have done enough for Taekwon-Do to deserve the title of master.

I think the youngest eight degree is about forty something. He is also the son of the founder (General Choi Hong Hi).



[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-20-2003).]

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#119434 - 08/20/03 08:20 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Kiwi

I guess so, but there is still the isssue of you teaching.

You say you have been doing TKD for 9 years, if you started at 6 that now makes you 15 or so.

As in my previous response and previos posts with Smitten kitten, what on earth makes you think you're qualified to teach.

Where did you get your degree, your MA, your teaching qualifications. Assuming you teach children also, where did you study child phsycology. How are you insured? at 15, you will not be covered under a general policy.

As with SK I'm not having a go at you, but your instructor. If he doesn't want to teach, don't run a club. Tell him to stop using you as slave labor for something that you are wholly unqualified to do and do his job.

JohnL


[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 08-20-2003).]

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#119435 - 08/20/03 07:04 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
do you teach at your teachers school? or do you have your own school?
i guess its ok that you teach (not that i have any right to judge) i agree to an extent that age shouldnt be a boundary, but you have to draw the line somewhere you know.
"the proof is in the pudding" (thanks chris)
if you can actually use your skills, and can show the level of maturity, skill, patience, ettiquite, and TEACHING ABILITY (a whole other ballpark) then i would have no arguments with you teaching, but i would say you should probably be teaching (for the time being) under your teachers supervision.
at any rate...keep up the good work.

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#119436 - 08/20/03 08:18 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
StormDOA Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 142
Loc: Lansing, Mich., USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Hi kiwi [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

First of all congratulations on achieving your black belt at such a young age.

I think the reason some people are negative about under 16s being awarded black belt is not out of envy or ego (although this may be true in some cases -who knows?)

I think the real reason is two-fold. Firstly most of us have come across "Mcdojos" where parents pour money into their children's training and in return get nothing more than production line gradings every few months at ridiculously high prices without actually properly learning their art (and this can happen to adults too).

Secondly, most martial artists agree that a child can not possibly have the same understanding of what they are doing as an adult does and can not be expected to be as responsible (not that all adults are responsible). For this reason in many arts children are not taught the full curriculum (no strangles/chokes etc.)

Some clubs get around this by not teaching children, some by training them but not allowing them to grade to black belt until 16.
In my association, children can take their junior black belt but have to re-test between 16 and 18 to demonstrate increased maturity and understanding. I personally think this is the best method.

I can not comment about women being treated differently as this does not happen either where I teach or where I train, but I allow any student who struggles with full pressups to start off doing them on their knees and this is, admittedly, usually the women and younger boys.
I do this because I feel more benenfit is derived from a press up from kneeling done properly than a full press up done badly or incorrectly.

Try not to let other people's predjudice upset you and don't enter into arguments about it. Prove you are worth your belt by the way you train and the way you conduct yourself in the dojo/dojang.

Most importantly, keep enjoying your training
Sharon

Sharon I agree with your reasoning 100%, kids are great students they are fun and often learn the techniques easily at times. However I agree with you that a child cannot achieve the same level as an adult when it comes to understanding what they are doing and the consequences thereof.Your associations practice of retesting is great, I wish I could convince my Kwa Jang to such a thing, but they worry about parents being upset, and because parental pressure varies with the level of pompousness it is inconsistent between Dojangs and Institutes. So some kids get to test when they are not ready but have put in the time and some are held back. It is to say the least disappointing and frustrating. My friend in West Coast TKD ( Ernie Reyes school) has a whole different belt sytem that the junior students use and they have to test into the adult systenm if they are interested.

[/QUOTE]

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#119437 - 08/21/03 01:57 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Storm,
I have also come across students (children and adults) who test when they have done their time regardless of their standard.
Surely this is a contradiction in terms. How can you "pass" a test you are not ready for? Driving examiners would not issue a licence based soley on the number of driving lessons a person has had.
I don't like to see children fail a grading. I avoid this as much as possible by giving them a mock grading in my dojo. Those that I think are up to standard are then graded by an independent instructor that does not know the students (who is much more experienced than myself). This avoids passing someone that is not good enough because "I know they can do better" or because "they are trying so hard".
I believe this is a good system because the failure rate is low but the standard remains high. Those that do not pass the mock grading are told they are not quite ready for their next grade and told what they need to work on, and then helped to do so.
As for parental pressure, I am happy to discuss any child's progress with their parents (who pay me, after all) but the decision on who grades is mine. Most appreciate that people are not allowed to "buy" the next grade, but have to earn it. In a few cases I have had parents say they disagree with my decision to not put their child forward. Most can be made to understand why, but some become angry about it. I know other instructors who deal with this by putting the child forward and letting them fail. I think this is unfair on the child, so I usually suggest to the parent that if they are unhappy with my decision they should find an instructor that better suits their needs. Some do so and some don't, that is their choice, but I will not be swayed on this point.
I have had no complaints about the re-testing because it is made clear early on that this is what happens. Children go no further than first dan anyway so it is not like they drop a grade at adult.

Kiwi, you have been doing martial arts for the same length of time as I have - nine years and you are probably better at it in some respects than I am. Because of your age you are probably faster (I am 39), you are possibly more flexible and almost definitely a quicker learner. Because you are male, you are probably stronger than I am.

However, I must agree with John that you should not be teaching unsupervised. Even if you are good at explaining and demonstrating techniques and are very mature for your age, you just do not have the life experience to deal with an emergencey for example.
If you are merely helping your instructor, under supervision, that is one thing and probably good experience as long as you are still getting training yourself. If you are teaching unsupervised and running your own class, most would consider it irresponsible at best and dangerous at worse.
Like John, I do not blame you, I blame your instructor.

I hope you do not take this comments personally, I think gaining your black belt is a fantastic acheivment and I hope you continue to enjoy your training. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
The above are just my opinions.
Sharon

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#119438 - 08/21/03 02:35 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Where did you get your degree, your MA, your teaching qualifications. Assuming you teach children also, where did you study child phsycology. How are you insured? at 15, you will not be covered under a general policy.

Umm John, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most MA teachers don't have a degree in child psychology, and in teaching [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]. As someone who spends thirty hours a week being taught by teachers, I can tell you that the teachers qualifications don't effect how much I learn. At mys school the teachers have varying qualifications, however I always learn the most from those teachers that are naturally friendly and confident.

On the matter of insurance..., every student pays ten dollars for insurance and the people who teach pay $150 (covered by the club). As a minor I recieve alot of protection when it comes to legal issues. Hence as far as insurance goes it is safer for me to be teaching then someone over eighteen.

and yes I have taken a mandatory teaching course (run by my association).

My chief instructor isn't to lazy to teach, however he find that you can teach better when you have fewer students to work on. As i am as technically competant as him, we split the class up.

Any teachers out there know how hard it is to teach more than twenty people at once (during patterns I correct every movement individually), if we did not split the class up it would take him all night just to go through the patterns.

Sharon
We do pregradings too, unfortunately when my chief instructor took over the club, there were many students who had been allowed to go through without (what I'd call) an acceptable standard. I have had a student leave because we would not let him go through. This is unfortunate but you cannot compromise the standard of your club because one student doesn't want to put the effort in to grade.

If you are merely helping your instructor, under supervision, that is one thing and probably good experience as long as you are still getting training yourself.

I do not get to train myself, basicly my chief instructor would have a hard time teaching me. I am a belt above him and have been doing it for a year longer. I train at home usually (luckily my father is a 1st degree in Taekwon-Do), in ITF Taekwon-Do you can purchase a sett of CD's with all the patterns, techniques and terminology.

note-When i say chief instructor I am refering to the chief instructor at my dojang, not the chief instructor of my organisation.




[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-21-2003).]

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#119439 - 08/21/03 08:04 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Kiwi

I can see that we're not getting anywhere.

You have no formal teaching qualifications, from the description of your insurance you're not covered. Sounds like a recipe for disaster. If the students had any sense they'd leave. They probably know no better.

You also state that you're a higher grade than your chief instructor. If you're a 15 year old 2nd dan, that speaks volumes about your "chief" instructor.


"and yes I have taken a mandatory teaching course (run by my association)."

Well whoop de doo!

"I do not get to train myself, basicly my chief instructor would have a hard time teaching me. I am a belt above him and have been doing it for a year longer. I train at home usually (luckily my father is a 1st degree in Taekwon-Do), in ITF Taekwon-Do you can purchase a sett of CD's with all the patterns, techniques and terminology."

Sounds like you're in for a whole lotta whup ass when you step in with the big boys. Oh, the arrogance of youth.

You're clearly not an instructor and you should stop putting yourself forward as one. At best it's fraud, at worst it's just pathetic.

JohnL


[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 08-21-2003).]

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#119440 - 08/21/03 04:28 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
Isshin Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 480
Loc: Knoxville Tennessee U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiwi:
"Where did you get your degree, your MA, your teaching qualifications. Assuming you teach children also, where did you study child phsycology. How are you insured? at 15, you will not be covered under a general policy."

Umm John, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most MA teachers don't have a degree in child psychology, and in teaching [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]. As someone who spends thirty hours a week being taught by teachers, I can tell you that the teachers qualifications don't effect how much I learn. At mys school the teachers have varying qualifications, however I always learn the most from those teachers that are naturally friendly and confident.

On the matter of insurance..., every student pays ten dollars for insurance and the people who teach pay $150 (covered by the club). As a minor I recieve alot of protection when it comes to legal issues. Hence as far as insurance goes it is safer for me to be teaching then someone over eighteen.

and yes I have taken a mandatory teaching course (run by my association).

My chief instructor isn't to lazy to teach, however he find that you can teach better when you have fewer students to work on. As i am as technically competant as him, we split the class up.

Any teachers out there know how hard it is to teach more than twenty people at once (during patterns I correct every movement individually), if we did not split the class up it would take him all night just to go through the patterns.

Sharon
We do pregradings too, unfortunately when my chief instructor took over the club, there were many students who had been allowed to go through without (what I'd call) an acceptable standard. I have had a student leave because we would not let him go through. This is unfortunate but you cannot compromise the standard of your club because one student doesn't want to put the effort in to grade.

"If you are merely helping your instructor, under supervision, that is one thing and probably good experience as long as you are still getting training yourself."

I do not get to train myself, basicly my chief instructor would have a hard time teaching me. I am a belt above him and have been doing it for a year longer. I train at home usually (luckily my father is a 1st degree in Taekwon-Do), in ITF Taekwon-Do you can purchase a sett of CD's with all the patterns, techniques and terminology.

note-When i say chief instructor I am refering to the chief instructor at my dojang, not the chief instructor of my organisation.


[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-21-2003).]
[/QUOTE]Would you like fries with that? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#119441 - 08/21/03 08:25 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
how in the hell is he supposed to test you for rank, or coach you if he is under you, and not been doing it as long??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
thats just retarded...to have a student who is better than you, YOUNGER than you,HIGHER in rank, and has been doing the same art in the same organization LONGER than you. preposterous. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG])...sorry but that is just complete nonsense.

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#119442 - 08/22/03 12:35 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
how in the hell is he supposed to test you for rank, or coach you if he is under you, and not been doing it as long??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
thats just retarded...to have a student who is better than you, YOUNGER than you,HIGHER in rank, and has been doing the same art in the same organization LONGER than you. preposterous. )...sorry but that is just complete nonsense.

As I said he doesn't, he doesn't teach me, and he doesn't consider me his student. I don't know about you, but I where I live the closest third degree is a three hour drive from me.

In your organisation does your instructor test you? In mine only fourth degrees and above are allowed to test. As their are very few fourth degrees, most of the people in my organisation are not tested by their instructor. I dont know about you, but in my organiastion once you get your black belt, you have to wait a couple of years to go for your next degree. Hence I don't need somone nearby to test me.

I ma going to repeat this as judging by your last post you havn't been able to understand me. At my dojang their is a chief instructor who takes care of the bussiness side of things and also trains half the class himself. I take the other half of the class. I train with him and not under him. Anyone else who is a high rank and lives in an isolated area will know how hard it is to find someone to train with.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 08-22-2003).]

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