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#119593 - 05/18/05 10:26 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPC

Ok fine--I did try.

Last one first, you use the term "mastered" in refernce to a technique.
Since in my 20 plus years of training I notice that folks that ARE masters, with considerably more training than I feel that THEY HAVE NOT "REALLY" MASTERED FUNDAMENTAL TECHNIQUES then I would guess that a 10-13 year child probably has not either.


"Mastered" was an inappropriate choice of word, given the specialized meaning it has within the MA's. But, you and JohnL are acting as though a student gets shown a technique one time, practices it for 2 minutes, and that's it. You act as if the head instructor is too stupid to see if something is being performed incorrectly, too lazy to go over and correct it, and too lackadaisical to give a rat's a$$ whether his students are actually learning the material correctly. Do you feel that a person must have "mastered" (using the word as a term of art) a technique before giving someone basic instruction on how to perform it? If so, then, you're going to have virtually no MA instructors. As you said, even masters don't feel that they have really mastered anything.

Quote:

Plus there is world of difference between the abilty to properly execute a technique and the ability to teach it.
Your fond of using the knife hand strike as an example so lets use that.
The bio-mech of the knife hand are complex, what is the aim point? What is the proper angle the hand should take? Where does the power come from? Should you be relaxed or tense--and at what point?
Should you lead with the elbow or should it "follow the strike?" What stance is best? What are the specific situations you should use it? Is it more of strike with the edge of the hand or more of a thrust at the eyes?
When should you NOT use it? What are the disadvantages of the strike--what does is open YOU up for?
How do I train the strike? How shoudl I set my feet? How do I use my torso to add power to the strike? How to I use my lower body to add power to the strike? What are the counters?

These are just a few questiosn that a adult teacher should know the answewrs to and a 10 year old probably would not--and if they did, I question their ability to explain it in detail.
Most 10 year olds are not capable of such exposition.


Again, these are details that get worked on over years of training. Not in a session where the master says to one of his black belts "Go over there and help the white belts with Chon Ji." You keep acting as though I am advocating 10 year olds running dojangs by themselves. I am not. I expect techiques to be worked on hundreds and thousands of times over the course of one's MA training. And I expect that during the course of that training, if a technique is being executed incorrectly, that the Master will correct it.

Quote:

Whats "BS" is your refusal to admit the various areas this topic has touched on--your unwillingness to accept the fact that your wrong and your blind, unsupported insistance that children are qualifed teachers.


Jesus. I've admitted a bunch of areas this topic has touched on. There's a difference between "qualified teachers" and "qualified assistants". I am suggesting the latter. Not the former. And, assuming the head instructor knows what he is doing, he will know what the limitations of his "assistants" are, and will fill in any gaps there might be in the training.

You can sit there until you're blue in the face, screaming at your computer screen "You're wrong and you're blind" but, these are opinions. It is not a "fact that I am wrong". And, you are just as blind, obstinate and hard-headed as I am, if not moreso. You have the opinion that a junior cannot, under any circumstance, at any time, with or without supervision, teach any technique to any adult, whatsoever. You have the opinion that a 13 year old, who has been training for 7 or 8 years, is incompetent to help his head instructor by showing techniques to lower ranked students. I have the opinion that that is utterly moronic. I think that a kid, with years of training, can help out in class, to assist the head instructor to the extent that the head instructor believes the junior is competent to assist, and with review of material by the head instructor later. That's the extent to which I've been arguing for "kids as teachers". Yet because of your blinders, you attack me as though I'm advocating 10 year old Kwan Jangs (or in the case of JohnL, 6 year olds). You insist that all of this negatively reflects on my school. I think your opinion negatively reflects on the quality of instruction at your school, if your school has students who have been training for 7 years and yet are utterly incompetent to show even a 1st day student the proper technique for doing a basic technique. That's just pathetic.

Quote:

What ALSO "BS" is your claim that you would allow a 13 kid to handle the job of re-modeling your entire kitchen--and a rational person would balk at that suggestions--but since it goes against your stance you say it would be ok with you.


Of course, you leave out things that I said. I didn't say "any 13 year old", I said one who has been doing it for years, with demonstrated ability and good references. I'd require the same of an adult contractor. Of course, given the legal climate, it's unlikely that there is such a 13 year old in existence.

Quote:

Look no further than your posts--you keep parseing arguements.
We have been talking about 10-13 years compared to 25-30 year old, black belt tests and abilty to teach.
What do you do above?
You make a comparsion with a 60 year old--then you extend the example to him learning faster than his father--when the discussion has NEVER been about whom learns faster--or 60 year olds at all.
At best its interesting but irrelevent.



So, who's parsing now? I pointed out a LOT more than just "who learns faster". You are the one who has parsed the "juniors" into only 10-13 year olds and the "adults" into only 25-30 year olds. And, I thought the discussion was about juniors teaching. We agree that they shouldn't be teaching alone. I've said I see no problem with them helping out in class in a supervised context. You say you wouldn't even allow that. Fine, while the head instructor is off teaching the red belts, then the blue belts, then the greens, and so on, the white belts and yellow belts can sit around twiddling their thumbs for 90% of your class. I'd rather have the black belts (regardless of their age) working them out.

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#119594 - 05/18/05 11:00 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Quote:

Quote:

IPC

Ok fine--I did try.

First IPC He did try to let the arguement die and agree to disagree then, you came back and continued to argue, that was the whole reason for his last post. You cut his post apart but did not address that part.

" Fine, while the head instructor is off teaching the red belts, then the blue belts, then the greens, and so on, the white belts and yellow belts can sit around twiddling their thumbs for 90% of your class. I'd rather have the black belts (regardless of their age) working them out.




Just a thought, perhaps having different classes for different ranks, Not everyone in one class. I know many instructors find it easier to just have one big class, and if you do that, most instructors would then tell the upper belts what to do while working with the lower belts first.

Anyway that digresses and I think it pulls up more than what this thread was talking about.

So I think that the agreement to disagree is the only one really available. I disagree with you but, I have let it die, you are entitled to your opinions as we are...
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

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#119595 - 05/18/05 11:16 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
IPC

If its an "innappropriate" term then why did YOU use it?
I am just using YOUR terms here.

No, what I am "acting like" is that childen esp children 10-13 years are just to young to have a good enough grasp of the material to teach it in any degree of accuarcy.
You also quite neatly dodged the example I gave about the "knife hand strike" and the complex bio-mech involved that would be beyond the abiltiy of most 10-13 to either understand or more importantaly PASS ALONG TO OTHERS ie "teach."

A child is simply not qualified to teach, a child of 10-13 is STILL a child, and argeuments that they are 10 now and started training when they were 6--so they have four solid years of training are simply irrational.
Training as a child, with a childs attention span and a childs level of understanding means squat to ADULT standards.

Back to the kitchen example---you can spin this anyway you like--bottom line is that I don't buy it. No rational person would allow a 13 year kid to re-wire, re-plumb and re-model their kitchen.
You would not do it, I would not do, NO-ONE WOULD BE SO FOOLISH.
Yet your level of intellectual dishonesty allows you to stoop to claiming that you would.
This alone calls into serious question the validity of your outlook and logic.

And no, I am dealing with "10-13" year olds BECAUSE THAT IS THE AGE GROUP THAT WE ARE SPECIFCALLY DISCUSSING.
Dude, take a deep breath and catch a clue here.
YOUR THE GUY THAT USED THE 10 AND THE 13 YEAR OLD AS EXAMPLES--I am just working with what you give me.

And unlike you who states that "I'd rather have black belts (regardless of their age) working them out"

I would rather have qualified ADULTS working with my kids and myself.
Thats what I am paying for after all.

I'll say it second time, your just not positing a logical, rational or convincing arguement here.
What you do in your own dojang is your business--just don't expect anyone out here in the larger MA world to either agree with you or your feelings as to child teachers.

We don't and you have failed to convince us otherwise.

So lets just drop this.


Edited by cxt (05/18/05 11:37 AM)

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#119596 - 05/18/05 11:39 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MN JC]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
I believe what happened is that I may have been typing a response to an earlier post when he was typing the "agree to disagree" post. And, then the discussion continued... His latest post.... "It is a fact that you are wrong... you are blind... your arguments are unsupportable..." Ridiculous. That is not an "agreement to disagree". It is patently absurd to say that a 13 year old, who has been taking lessons for 7 or 8 years, is so utterly incompetent, so utterly undeserving of respect, so completely devoid of knowledge, that he shouldn't even be allowed to show a first day adult student a basic technique, under supervision.

CXT has taken half a dozen potshots at my school, but, it is HIS school that apparently is turning out students who can't even demonstrate the most basic technique to a beginner after 7 years of instruction.

He calls me blind, yet he is the one who says "I don't care how good he is, what he knows, or what the circumstances are, if he's a junior, he's incapable." THAT is being blind. I'll agree to disagree. We each have opinions. I will not accept that "it is a fact that I am wrong." That is not a "fact". That is an opinion.

As regards your comment on class size, our instructor has never strived for huge classes. He doesn't bow to parent pressure to advance students who don't perform up to standard. He doesn't give away belts just to keep kids, or their parents, interested. He'd rather lose a student who undeservedly believes he should be advanced in rank, than advance someone who hasn't demonstrated an appropriate level of performance of the materials. He prefers a smaller group of students and quality instruction. He's in the business to pass on the art, not to make boatloads of cash. If you have hundreds of students, sure, have a session for whites and yellows, a separate session for greens and blues, etc. That's not quite as practical when you've got 50 or 60 students. We have daily junior classes, 6-12 year olds, and adult classes, 13 and up, and a separate once a week session for black belts only.

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#119597 - 05/18/05 11:50 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
MN JC Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: Coon Rapids, MN USA
Quote:



As regards your comment on class size, our instructor has never strived for huge classes. He doesn't bow to parent pressure to advance students who don't perform up to standard. He doesn't give away belts just to keep kids, or their parents, interested. He'd rather lose a student who undeservedly believes he should be advanced in rank, than advance someone who hasn't demonstrated an appropriate level of performance of the materials. He prefers a smaller group of students and quality instruction. He's in the business to pass on the art, not to make boatloads of cash. If you have hundreds of students, sure, have a session for whites and yellows, a separate session for greens and blues, etc. That's not quite as practical when you've got 50 or 60 students. We have daily junior classes, 6-12 year olds, and adult classes, 13 and up, and a separate once a week session for black belts only.




This is why I said this was a topic unto itself. It is a teachers preferance and total amount of students may spark the debate as to when/why/how to split up classes. As with the topic at hand, everyone will have their own opion on it.

Also, I (my personal opinion here) do not let the arguement that he is doing it, so I can do it, hold any water. If you have a problem with how he is argueing, don't do the same thing. This whold topic is turing into a flame war and is not adding anything to the topic, we are just turning the same things over and over.... But that is how it goes when people feel strongly about somthing. So at least we have some passion here...
_________________________
--------------- Dream it, Live it, Be it! (What is it?) -John

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#119598 - 05/18/05 11:52 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: MN JC]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:


Also, I (my personal opinion here) do not let the arguement that he is doing it, so I can do it, hold any water. If you have a problem with how he is argueing, don't do the same thing. This whold topic is turing into a flame war and is not adding anything to the topic, we are just turning the same things over and over.... But that is how it goes when people feel strongly about somthing. So at least we have some passion here...


Agreed. I apologize. I agree to disagree. I'm done.

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#119599 - 05/18/05 12:44 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
IPC

Yeah, taking a last hit THEN agreeing to let go is no agreement at all.

The correct response would have been to just drop it--as I was ready to do the first time I asked.

If you wish it dropped then by all means drop it.

But in the interests of clarity the only "potshots" I have taken at you were examples YOU YOURSELF POSTED about training in your school.

-The 10 year old black belt

-The CHILDERN taking and passing THE SAME TEST as 25-30 year old ADULT students.

-That you would allow, heck PAY, a 13 year kid to totally re-model your kitchen.

-You were the one who started this off by asserting that anyone who disagreed with your notion that children can teach were being--and I quote "prideful."
In effect that since we disagree with YOUR outlook there is something "wrong" with us.

-You were the one who extended spacious arguement after spacious arguement.


(as an aside, as a person of faith-I find it mildly offensive that you would cast anyone that disagreed with you as commiting the sin of "pride."
There are very good, sound and logical reasons for NOT agreeing with you, MANY of which I mentioned and NONE of which warrent the charge you leveled.)

Again the only "potshots" were YOUR OWN EXAMPLES OF THE TRAINING AT YOUR SCHOOL.
If you consider such examples "potshots" perhaps you should take a hard, serious and critical look at the school you have chosen for training.

I would suggest that might be a more productive course of action than argueing with me.


Edited by cxt (05/18/05 01:02 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119600 - 05/18/05 01:15 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPC

Yeah, taking a last hit THEN agreeing to let go is no agreement at all.


...which is precisely what you had done a day or so ago. Again. I'd like to agree to disagree... Let's drop this.

Quote:

The correct response would have been to just drop it--as I was ready to do the first time I asked.

If you wish it dropped then by all means drop it.


Fine... I consider it dropped.

Quote:

-You were the one who started this off by asserting that anyone who disagreed with your notion that children can teach were being--and I quote "prideful."
In effect that since we disagree with YOUR outlook there is something "wrong" with us.

-You were the one who extended spacious arguement after spacious arguement.

(as an aside, as a person of faith-I find it mildly offensive that you would cast anyone that disagreed with you as commiting the sin of "pride."
There are very good, sound and logical reasons for NOT agreeing with you, MANY of which I mentioned and NONE of which warrent the charge you leveled.)


I apologize for having offended you. As a point of clarification, though, I was not the first person to use the term. And, I was using it in the specific context of the definition I provided, which may not, necessarily, be the biblical sense.

I hope that none of the forgoing is considered a continuation of the "argument", which I considered an exchange of "opinions." Again, I apologize if I have offended you and I apologize if my comments were taken as derogatory or insulting.

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#119601 - 05/18/05 01:32 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
(I'm assuming gender for simplicity) you'll never win his sense of reason folks, if he doesn't allow himself to see it, then his motivation for doing so is larger than his common sense.

He is selling self-importance to the kids at his dojo...and he must be making enough $ to feel the need to defend it.

A feeble attempt of McDojo moral justification on his part.

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#119602 - 05/23/05 04:39 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: kiwi]
TKD-Skippi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 268
Loc: Scotland, Selkirk
In TKD a 1st degree BB simply denotes a certain degree of learned moves and patters. The period when you learn most things is when your under ten. so yeh, they will retain classes better (in theory) and lil kids are realy flexible so preforme kick easier. i was taugt a pattern the other day by a 13 year old. i'm 18 yellow belt. she knew the pattern i didnt. she taught it i learned it in 20 mins. nothing worg with her techings. so if somone who achived a BB has the knowlage then i see no reason he/she cant teach it, proving any older people can swalow the humble pie. even if there physical size/streagth means they cant efectively apply it.

just my two pence
_________________________
Do not be overcome by evil , but overcome evil with good -Romans 13:21

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