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#119583 - 05/16/05 05:52 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: JohnL]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

It's interesting how this discussion has developed;

Kiwi - States that he teaches at age 16.

Pwrkikin - States that he taught between 8-10.

Ipscshooter - Staes that the age of the blackbelt doesn't matter. Given that in TKD there are 6 year old blackbelts, that means that he agrees with 6 year olds teaching




John, you know that we have had this discussion before and that you are inaccurately stating what I said. Gen. Choi said 9 years old was the minimum. I don't believe a 6 year old could do it. Also, I have never said that juniors should be teaching unsupervised. And, to be an "instructor" in TKD, not just an assistant, you have to be 4th Dan which, at an absolute minimum would take another 9 years.

Instructors are allowed to delegate authority to assistants to teach. Assistants do not have the power to test. Even an adult 1st Dan is only allowed to teach up to 5th grade, which is green belt/blue stripe.

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#119584 - 05/16/05 06:07 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:


But YOUR THE ONE SAYING HIS KID IS SPECIAL---I have no way to determine that other than your say so.
And from where I sit you sound like any other parent.
Plus since you mantian that the 10 year kids are taking the same test as full grown adults--then your "3td party" assurtion is worthless--you "3td party" is handing black belts to pretty much ANYONE.
Sorry buts exactly how you have made it look.



To ANYONE? I believe I said that he has awarded ONE to a 10 year old, in 30 years of running his school.

Quote:

Now your changeing your base AGAIN.

The discussion here is teaching in general and comparing adults and children specifically.

Now you say:

"I've simple said that I see no problem with a 10 year old helping show things to younger students"

Thus is NOT what we have been talking about--its a fall-back positon that you have retreated to now that all your other arguements have been quashed.


I haven't "fallen back" to anything. I think I've been pretty consistent throughout this discussion. I have never said I thought juniors should be teaching adult classes and handing out black belts. I've consistently stated that I saw no problem with juniors helping out their head instructor while the head instructor attends to other matters in class, with review of the material afterward by the head instructor.

Quote:

PLus by even saying it you have tacitly agreed with me--kids are NOT the equal of adults and should be treated differently.

All you have done by insisting that children are the equal of adults is make TKD and your dojang look bad to anyone reading this.


Please point out where I said they were equal.

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#119585 - 05/16/05 11:56 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
TraditionalTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Jackson, MI
I do not have a problem with a 13 year old black belt, as long as it is recognized that he is a JUNIOR (Poom Dan) black belt. In other words, his technique relative to other kids his age is black belt quality. He should NOT be considered a full Dan, in the sense that he is the equal of adults who hold the Dan rank. He is not their equal. Even if he lines up with all other black belts, he cannot line up ahead of adult Dans unless he tested first, and even that is debatable. To do so would insult the adults by saying that a child is superior to them. This is part of the Confucian ethic in Tae Kwon Do-adults come first.
As for teaching, the most a Poom Dan could do is assist an adult teaching the children's class, and only if he were gifted for his age. Young children do need to see someone around their age attain the Dan to motivate them. But no way should a child be a primary Instructor even for children. If I were a student, and the black belt teaching me were a child, I'd be highly insulted.

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#119586 - 05/17/05 10:13 AM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
IPC

What can say, I have explained that your doing little more than harming your own dojang by your protestations that 10-13 year old children take the same test as a 25-30 year old full grown adult.
Its not MY fault that YOUR actions call into question the validity of your dojang and its training.

Have you not being paying attention? We have spent a full day on this topic and as pointed out--your overly narrow defiantion of what kids should be allowed to do is only PART of whats being discussed here.

A good part of this discussion has to do with testing, and if kids should be teaching at all (which I don't think they should) if kids have enough grasp of the material TO teach it. Weither or not its "prideful" for folks to object to paying their hard earned money to be taught by children, heck you even worked in Motzart and Mary Lou Retton.

What I am getting at here is that there was, is and will be more to this topic than your overly narrow posit above.

(and as far as I am concerned, your only taking it because your other arguements have come up short)

Look at it like this--you were the one that multiple times insisted that it was "prideful" for folks to think they could not learn something from a child---since I am adult and you are an adult--it makes little sense now to insist that what you "really" meant was that a kid could help teach other children under the supervision of a master.

See, that makes little rational sense.
Like I said before, its a "fall-back" position that you retreated to after your other arguements were quashed.

Tell you what, we disagree in fundamental fashion as to what is "ok" by way of children and skill levels.
You don't strike me a bad guy, your clearly smart and have a strong opinion.

Lets just agree to disagree about this topic and just drop it.
Enjoying the discussion but I don't think were getting anywhere.


Edited by cxt (05/17/05 12:15 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#119587 - 05/17/05 01:17 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
ipscshooter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 148
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

IPC

What can say, I have explained that your doing little more than harming your own dojang by your protestations that 10-13 year old children take the same test as a 25-30 year old full grown adult.
Its not MY fault that YOUR actions call into question the validity of your dojang and its training.


You're welcome to your opinion. Our tests are consistent with what Gen. Choi prescribes in his Encyclopedia of TKD. Actually, our junior's test is harder than what Choi prescribes, in that Choi apparently does not require breaking during a junior's test. Our instructor does, and for black belt exam, even requires multi-board breaks. Our students all fare reasonably well at state level tournaments, so I don't think we've been severely short-changed. I suspect that some of our young black belts would even give you a good match. We had one who was 6'4, about 185, and as fast as a cobra, by the time he was 17.

Quote:

Have you not being paying attention? We have spent a full day on this topic and as pointed out--your overly narrow defiantion of what kids should be allowed to do is only PART of whats being discussed here.


I understand what the discussion is about. It was and has been about teaching. I was simply proferring my opinion as to the extent to which I thought it was reasonable to allow juniors to teach. That is, in a supervised context, with review of taught material by the head instructor later in the class. We both agree that juniors should not be teaching unsupervised. You apparently go beyond this position to assert that juniors should not even be allowed to teach in a supervised context, under any circumstance, as to any material, to any student.

Quote:

A good part of this discussion has to do with testing, and if kids should be teaching at all (which I don't think they should) if kids have enough grasp of the material TO teach it. Weither or not its "prideful" for folks to object to oaying thier hard earned money to be taught by children, heck we even worked in Motzart and Mary Lou Retton.

What I am getting at here is that there was, is and will be more to this topic than your overly narrow posit above.

(and as far as I am concerned, your only taking it because your other arguements have come up short)


That's just BS. My position on this has been the same throughout. How can it be a fall-back position taken because my other arguments have come up short? That makes no sense whatsoever. Perhaps your statement would be correct if I had initially said "10 year olds should be able to run their own dojangs". And then retreated to this position after being ridiculed. But that is not what I've done.

Quote:

Look at it like this--you were the one that multiple times insisted that it was "prideful" for folks to think they could not learn something from a child


It is. Fits the definition to a T.

Quote:

---since I am adult and you are an adult--it makes little sense now to insist that what you "really" meant was that a kid could help teach other children under the supervision of a master

See, that makes little rational sense.

Like I said before, its a "fall-back" position that you retreated to after your other arguement were quashed.

I notice above that your even dragging Gen Choi into this.


That's not even what I'm saying. What I've said goes beyond juniors (under 18) helping teach kids under supervision of the head instructor. I see no problem with juniors helping teach adults under the supervision of the head instructor.

We are in agreement that kids shouldn't be teaching ANY class unsupervised. [Why all the hostility when we are in about 75% agreement here?] Where we disagree is that I think that juniors, who have put in years of training and have learned the material, have something to offer to other students, whether junior or adult... and that an adult (apparently, to you, even a first day student) who believes that the junior, merely because of age, can't show him anything is arrogant, pompous and prideful.

The 13 year old I was talking about earlier (now about 18, I believe), attends class with his 60+ year old father. They are both the same rank, 2nd Dans, both working toward 3rd, and both were blackbelts when I started taking lessons 6+ years ago. Throughout their training together, the junior has outperformed his father on all of the material. His techniques are better. His forms are better. He spars better. He performs techniques with more strength and precision. He performs with higher scores on his testings. He learns the material faster. When he was 16, I watched him easily break 3 12X12X1 boards with a front punch (I can't do that at three times that age). Are you suggesting that he shouldn't even be able to help his father with material that he has already learned? On many occasions during my training, the head instructor asked the father to show me techniques. (I assume you have no problem with that... since he's an adult and all...) On many of those occasions, the father had to ask his son to help, either because he couldn't physically demonstrate the technique, or because he didn't remember portions of the material. (i.e. There might be 10 defenses to work on, and he only remembered 8). Frankly, in most circumstances the junior was a better teacher than his father.

Gen. Choi's encyclopedia states that ANY student who has mastered a technique should be able to show it to a lower-ranked student. Thus, even a 9th Gup student should be able to show a 10th Gup, for example, a front kick.

Also, as stated above, in TKD, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Dan are all "assistant instructor" ranks, and not allowed to teach unsupervised anyway. It's not until 4th dan that one becomes an "Instructor". And, 1st Dan is only allowed to teach (supervised) up to Green Belt/Blue Stripe. I simply find it hard to believe that any adult could be so arrogant as to believe, even on his very first day of class, he couldn't learn a walking stance from a junior who has been practicing the art for between 5 and 12 years. This appears to be your position, since juniors shouldn't teach "at all", not even supervised.

As you apparently have 20+ years in the arts, I can understand that YOU have surpassed what probably all juniors could show you. However, look at it from the perspective of a beginner, in a class of 30+ students, who is in a 1 1/2 hour class and whose head instructor must devote separate time to the red belts, the red belt/blue stripes, the blue belts, etc., etc., etc. etc... Why on Earth could the instructor not ask a 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year old, who has been taking lessons for 4, 5, maybe 10 years, to help that beginning student with Four Direction Punch, or other basic material, while the head instructor tends to other matters. What would the beginner do otherwise? Sit there and watch? Why not take advantage of the experience of these other students in order to gain some knowledge, even if it must be reviewed and supplemented later with the head instructor?

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#119588 - 05/17/05 01:35 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
IPC

Ok fine--I did try.

Last one first, you use the term "mastered" in refernce to a technique.
Since in my 20 plus years of training I notice that folks that ARE masters, with considerably more training than I feel that THEY HAVE NOT "REALLY" MASTERED FUNDAMENTAL TECHNIQUES then I would guess that a 10-13 year child probably has not either.

(perhaps you are unaware of the various people that have said so)

Plus there is world of difference between the abilty to properly execute a technique and the ability to teach it.
Your fond of using the knife hand strike as an example so lets use that.
The bio-mech of the knife hand are complex, what is the aim point? What is the proper angle the hand should take? Where does the power come from? Should you be relaxed or tense--and at what point?
Should you lead with the elbow or should it "follow the strike?" What stance is best? What are the specific situations you should use it? Is it more of strike with the edge of the hand or more of a thrust at the eyes?
When should you NOT use it? What are the disadvantages of the strike--what does is open YOU up for?
How do I train the strike? How shoudl I set my feet? How do I use my torso to add power to the strike? How to I use my lower body to add power to the strike? What are the counters?

These are just a few questiosn that a adult teacher should know the answewrs to and a 10 year old probably would not--and if they did, I question their ability to explain it in detail.
Most 10 year olds are not capable of such exposition.

Whats "BS" is your refusal to admit the various areas this topic has touched on--your unwillingness to accept the fact that your wrong and your blind, unsupported insistance that children are qualifed teachers.

What ALSO "BS" is your claim that you would allow a 13 kid to handle the job of re-modeling your entire kitchen--and a rational person would balk at that suggestions--but since it goes against your stance you say it would be ok with you.

Which is illogical. irrational and if I may say so, quite craven.
Its the act of a man so caught up in his own personal belief system that he can't even be honest enough to admit that his outlook has some serious flaws.

Look no further than your posts--you keep parseing arguements.
We have been talking about 10-13 years compared to 25-30 year old, black belt tests and abilty to teach.
What do you do above?
You make a comparsion with a 60 year old--then you extend the example to him learning faster than his father--when the discussion has NEVER been about whom learns faster--or 60 year olds at all.
At best its interesting but irrelevent.


Edited by cxt (05/17/05 04:14 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#119589 - 05/17/05 02:01 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: ipscshooter]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Quote:

Quote:

IPC

Gen. Choi's encyclopedia states that ANY student who has mastered a technique should be able to show it to a lower-ranked student. Thus, even a 9th Gup student should be able to show a 10th Gup, for example, a front kick.





Hi IPS

If that is in Gen. Choi's book, I suggest burning the book every time you find one. You appear for some reason to hold it in some regard.

It's impossible for a 9th Gup/Kyu to teach anything. They don't know anything. All that will happen by letting someone of this level teach anything is that they will get it wrong and then the new student is handicapped from the beginning by flawed teaching.

I suggest you stop reading the little Choi book if it has pearls of wisdom like that in it and start thinking for yourself.
_________________________
John L

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#119590 - 05/17/05 02:07 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: JohnL]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
CXT = 1 point.

IPC = 1/2 point.

CXT, advantage and game.

-B

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#119591 - 05/17/05 02:51 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: cxt]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I can't believe this thread went on for this long.

Anyone that tries to argue kids can be yudansha and/or teach is justifing the BUSINESS, not the art.

Why doesn't everyone see this? It's so simple. A case of blinded by their own profiteering I suppose.

Somebody decades ago saw the market and geered the art to that open market; technique and depth/bredth of study was a second priority (how much could they really learn as kids anyway right). It has been an ever-increasing spiral to the bottom of ego-marketing.
here's the business plan:
Supply: kids wanting instant gratification.
Demand: kid-worshipping parents wants pictures, trophies and their kid to have what they want....at any cost.

hmmm...anyone with not even so much as a business 101 class from a community college can figure this one out. heres the formula:
make the kid happy = Money.

lets say I'm a shister. here's what I do, given the supply and demand, I open a clubhouse and call it a dojo. then I advertise everywhere with anime of cool XMA stuff and state of the art marketing strategy. The first kid students to trickle in get promoted quickly so the new kids see a 6 year old BB and say, I wanna be a bwack-bewlt twooo! During the 1 or 2 year course to bwack-bewlt, I'm constantly promoting them while screwing the parents. basically I'm selling egos by the dozen...or you could look at it as selling them belts at about $300 per belt.

figure out the monthly and yearly average cash flow at your dojo. but even that doesn't tell the whole picture...I've learned that some mcsenseis get 'kickbacks' from the orgs that their dojo is affiliated. pyramid and ponzi schemes in MA? why are/aren't you surprized?

Isn't a mcdojo a ponzi scheme in itself? they are promising a high return (black belt and self-defense), for an immediate and continued investment. you won't know that you didn't get what you paid for until you are in a situation where it would have been nice to have what they promised.

all this being said, I'll still get criticized for saying such things no doubt. which is good too, at least you'll be thinking about it. sorry for the sarcasm, ego-selling to kids, to me, is like selling them drugs...thats how wrong I think it is.

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#119592 - 05/17/05 04:21 PM Re: Ageism-Junior black belts [Re: Kintama]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Kintama

Let me quote (ok parapharse) stright from the McDojang handbook:

Parent

"Is not that kid a little young to be teaching class?"

Master

"Yes, that's a member of our Leadership Training Group and they are developing valuable skills in leadership, group dynamics and organization.
Perhaps if your boy works hard and hits class 3 times a week he can qualify for the group as well."

Then change the subject!
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
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